Royal Malaysian Navy (RMN) update

[Ding]

RMN capabilities and shortfalls

The thread about RMAF future has been a great eye opener to me and, for me at least, it has been a great discussion platform to hear views from professionals and enthusiast.

Here, to take up the suggestion by awang_se (i think) to start a discussion about the Royal Malaysian Navy, I'm starting this thread. And as a forum rule, I have to state my opinion first...correct? Okay

RMN Inventory of Combat and support vessel:

2x Lekiu Class FFG (F2000)
have seawolf VLS, have hull mounted sonar, torpedo, 8 ASM, 57mm Bofors, 30mm AAA, Helo deck

2x Kasturi Class Corvette (FS 1500)
note: some sources place these vessels as frigates, some as corvettes. looking at the size and displacements (1900tons) some even called them mini-frigates!
4 ASM, 100mm/50 DP, 57mm/70 DP (bofors i think), 2 dual 30mm AAA, hull sonar, helo deck

4x Laksamana Class Corvette (ex - Wadi M'ragh)
6 ASM, Aspide/Albatross SAM, 76mm Super Rapide, 1 dual 40mm, torpedo, hull sonar

4x Handalan Class FAC Missile (Spica - M)
4 ASM, 1 57mm/70 DP, 1 40mm/70 DP, Hull sonar

4x Perdana Class FAC Missile (Combattante II 4AL)
2 ASM 1 57mm/70 DP, 1 40mm/70 DP

6x Jerong Class FAC Gun (FPB 45 Type)
gun only 57mm and 1 40mm

2x Multi Purpose Command and Support Ship Seri Indera Sakti Class
2 57mm/70 DP, 2 20mm AAA

2x Musytari Class OPV
1 100mm/50 DP, 2 dual 30mm AAA

6x Kedah Class NGPV
1 76mm super rapide, 1 30mm AAA, helo deck
note: this vessel is based on the meko 100 vessel. I think it's wastefull to arm it as a OPV, better to arm as a corvette. just add ASM, sonar, torpedo and SAMs

As I can deduce here, ASW is sorely lacking. ASuW is acceptable even good perhaps, AAW is so and so, most vessel only have point or limited area defences.

Let's have some suggestions on how we can balance the capability of the RMN

 

[Ding]

comming soon:-

2x Scorpene SSK
1x Agosta 90B SSK

planning:-

2 F2000 class FFG

Airwing:-
6? Super Lynx with sea skua (hopefully), surface search radar
4? Fennec as550 (training only)

Good question to ask the experts, how does the subs enhances the RMN? In what way?

 

[Subangite]

Yeah, I suggested a new thread (been busy lately to do it myself) since some on the RMAF thread touched on an LOI by GOM for 2 more BAe F2000 Lekiu class for the RMN. Though the difference this time is that they aren't being built in Britain but if I'm not mistaken BAe Marine Systems are contracting out the assembly work to a local ship building company in Labuan, Malaysia. Recent reports have indicated that the RMN have a requirement for 8-10 frigates.

I really hope contracting it to a Malaysian firm wouldn't create the same blunder as the assembly of the Blohm + Voss MEKO 100, Kedah Class ships. Ship builder PSC-Naval Dockyard (PSC-ND) was originally due to begin deliveries of the six-ship Kedah-class in 2004. However, the first two vessels failed their initial acceptance tests in early 2005 and the dockyard was beset by management problems, leading the government's Lembaga Tabung Angkatan Tentera (Armed Forces Provident Fund) and Boustead Holdings to take over the company. The Royal Malaysian Navy only conditionally accepted its first Kedah-class MEKO 100-class corvette and is monitoring work done on the remaining vessels.

PSC-Naval Dockyard signed a contract with the government worth RM24.3 billion in 1998 to build 27 heavily-armed offshore patrol vessels but various difficulties emerged including financial where PSC-Naval Dockyard owed up to RM80 million to contractors and suppliers. Are the RMN still receiving a total of 27 Kedah class vessels or has this now been scaled down in light of PSC-Naval Dockyards problems??

Regarding the subs, I've read that the refurbished Agosta 90B SSK will be transfered to Malaysia after the 4 years used for training of RMN Scorpene SSK submariners in France. My question is will this particular sub still be used as a training vessel once transfered to Malaysian waters? Wouldn't it be more cost effective to have simulators for this purpose?

 

[renjer]

Here's a link to a satellite photo of the navy's new submarine base at Sepanggar:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=...032,116.109009&spn=0.038662,0.086517&t=h&om=1

I understand that the electricity supply has only been turned at the base this month. Naval personnel and their families are now transferring to the base from temporary accommodations elsewhere. The Scorpenes are scheduled to arrive in Malaysia in 2008.

 

[sevven]

Firstly, the value of the contract for the first batch of 6 NGPV was widely quoted as RM5.6 billion. There is talk that a second batch is likely to be ordered. With a considerable number of vessels, though aged, passed over to MMEA, RMN needs to beef up.

The 6 AS555N Fennecs with a chin-mounted radar are hardly just for training. It can also be fixed with a FLIR, though with all that load, the endurance will definitely suffer. The current 6 Super Lynx 300 are anti-surface optimized, but RMN is known to be looking for a squadron of ASW helicopters.

I don't think the French Navy ever operated an Agosta 90. Only Pakistan operates Agosta 90Bs. The Ouessant is an Agosta 70, which as the Navy Chief commented, unlikely to be brought back to Malaysia.

 

[Subangite]

I don't think the French Navy ever operated an Agosta 90. Only Pakistan operates Agosta 90Bs. The Ouessant is an Agosta 70, which as the Navy Chief commented, unlikely to be brought back to Malaysia.

Yes, thats right, Agosta 70, I stand corrected. Can the Agosta 70's be combat ready sub for the RMN? What will happen to the Malaysian Submarine School in Brest, France and the Agosta 70 after the Scorpenes arrive?

Navy chief Ilyas was quoted saying in november that he might propose to the government to bring Agosta back to Malaysia after the training of the submariners "as a symbol of the progress made in Malaysia's defence development", as reported by the Bernama news agency.

 

[dreamwarrior73]

correction: MUSYTARI class OPV has been transferred to the Coast Guard.

suggestion: replace these OPVs by taking up the RBN Nakhoda class OPVs. because they are derived from the RMN F2000 class frigates. and RMN did consult with RMN whey they wanted to derived the GSR for the OPVs. these OPVs are fully loaded and practically are corvettes instead of OPVs.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[weasel1962]

Re: Fleet structure

Deleted

 

[sevven]

The Mahamiru class are minehunters, not corvettes. At least two of them are being upgraded, and some of the PAP 104 ROVs have been replaced with newer Olisters.

 

[Subangite]

correction: MUSYTARI class OPV has been transferred to the Coast Guard.

suggestion: replace these OPVs by taking up the RBN Nakhoda class OPVs. because they are derived from the RMN F2000 class frigates. and RMN did consult with RMN whey they wanted to derived the GSR for the OPVs. these OPVs are fully loaded and practically are corvettes instead of OPVs.

I think it is slightly premature to suggest this until the results of the Paris court arbitration, which could find in favour of BAe Marine Systems and perhaps force the Royal Brunei Navy to accept the Nakhoda class vessels. We will just have to wait for the court ruling on this matter.

I would rather see the RMN procuring more Lekiu class frigates than RBN Nakhoda class, especially considering construction of new additional BAe F2000 Lekiu class is now planned in Malaysia, providing jobs and importantly engineering technology transfers to Malaysia, via Sabah Shipbuilding in Labuan.

 

[weasel1962]

Re: specs for various classes

Deleted

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

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[Subangite]

Info on 2 of Lekiu's radar:

DA-08 radar
http://www.thales-naval.com/pdf/da08.pdf

Sea Giraffe
http://www.ericsson.com/products/hp/Sea_GIRAFFE_AMB_pos.shtml
http://www.naval-technology.com/contractors/weapon_control/ericsson_microwave/

Nakhoda
http://ms.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDB_Nakhoda_Ragam
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/nakhoda/

The Nakhoda uses the same Nautis 2 system, MM40 Blk 2 exocets, sea wolf as the Lekiu. Slightly shorter and lighter. The problem is even if available the Nakhoda won't come cheap. If Malaysia agrees to buy it, the case bet BAE and the sultan will not be a barrier. BAE is not going to risk a case loss (ie no buyer). The Sultan won't be forced to buy something which he doesn't want. So its more a question of cost to Malaysia.

Cost estimates was more than RM4-5b for the 3 Nakhoda ships. That's almost double what the Kedah OPVs cost. The only good thing is that the OPVs can be delivered early but this would mean ironing out the 1001 little details (recruitment, basing etc).

For the 3 Nakhoda class OPV ships, eventhough BAE has never disclosed the financial terms of the contract, industry analysts are said to estimate that each ship would be worth well in excess of £200m, making the total contract worth over £600m. This is roughly the same cost and amount as for the 2 Lekiu class frigates Malaysia has just signed a LOI with BAe recently. I would prefer the new Lekiu frigates over Nakhoda because of the new ships being assembled in Malaysian and thus the associated technology transfers as a result. Its great news for the Malaysian shipbuilding industry.

The governments decision on local assembly mirrors that of neighbouring Singapore, whereby ST marine has benefited greatly from technology transfers in local assembly contracts of government ship purchases, to the extent that ST marine has even managed to locally design and build for the RSN the Endurance class amphibious transport docks, the Fearless class of patrol vessels.

Since the 3 Nakhodas cost the same as 2 Lekius, I'm in favour of more Lekius simply because it would benefit the nation's shipbuilding capabilities, though I hope lessons have been learnt from the PSC assembling Meko 100 Kedah class program.

 

[renjer]

For the 3 Nakhoda class OPV ships, eventhough BAE has never disclosed the financial terms of the contract, industry analysts are said to estimate that each ship would be worth well in excess of £200m, making the total contract worth over £600m. This is roughly the same cost and amount as for the 2 Lekiu class frigates Malaysia has just signed a LOI with BAe recently. I would prefer the new Lekiu frigates over Nakhoda because of the new ships being assembled in Malaysian and thus the associated technology transfers as a result. Its great news for the Malaysian shipbuilding industry.

The governments decision on local assembly mirrors that of neighbouring Singapore, whereby ST marine has benefited greatly from technology transfers in local assembly contracts of government ship purchases, to the extent that ST marine has even managed to locally design and build for the RSN the Endurance class amphibious transport docks, the Fearless class of patrol vessels.

Since the 3 Nakhodas cost the same as 2 Lekius, I'm in favour of more Lekius simply because it would benefit the nation's shipbuilding capabilities, though I hope lessons have been learnt from the PSC assembling Meko 100 Kedah class program.

I agree with you 100% on this.

 

[Subangite]

I agree with you 100% on this.

Thanks Renjer

Anyways back to topic of RMN capabilities, regarding the Blohm + Voss Meko 100, Kedah class OPV assembly, does anyone know if the 27 planned vessels now have been scaled down, especially in light of PSC-Naval Dockyards mismanagement and cost over runs? Has there been any confirmation of this?

 

[Ding]

the future of the NGPV is not known at the moment. I think the navy is taking a wait-see stance at the moment, ie seeing how the 6 ships turn out. i still think it's wasted for the NGPV to be outfitted as an OPV as the ships will have no self defence capability. atleast if funding is short to outfit the NGPV to a multimission corvette, maybe give some specialization to it. say 2 AAW corvette, 2 ASuW corvette and 2 ASW corvette. so the AAW corvette will have minimal (but atleast still have some) ASW and ASuW capability and the ASuW will have...well you get the picture. I think in this way, we wont wasted a good platform by denying it a measure of self-defence.

In regards to the RBN OPV's, I still agree with subangite to get new FFG, than to have new OPV's in the long run. but if we can get gooooood discounts on the RBN OPV's and still continue to get the frigates assembled in Malaysia, so much the better!

I like the Laksamana Class Corvette as it is light but armed to the teeth. I think RMN combat vessel structure should be some 4-6 Light multimission frigates and 12 multimission corvettes like the Laksamana class.

ps, subangite, i presume you stay in subang. say met up for teh tarik session someday??

 

[Subangite]

the future of the NGPV is not known at the moment. I think the navy is taking a wait-see stance at the moment, ie seeing how the 6 ships turn out. i still think it's wasted for the NGPV to be outfitted as an OPV as the ships will have no self defence capability. atleast if funding is short to outfit the NGPV to a multimission corvette, maybe give some specialization to it. say 2 AAW corvette, 2 ASuW corvette and 2 ASW corvette. so the AAW corvette will have minimal (but atleast still have some) ASW and ASuW capability and the ASuW will have...well you get the picture. I think in this way, we wont wasted a good platform by denying it a measure of self-defence.

In regards to the RBN OPV's, I still agree with subangite to get new FFG, than to have new OPV's in the long run. but if we can get gooooood discounts on the RBN OPV's and still continue to get the frigates assembled in Malaysia, so much the better!

I like the Laksamana Class Corvette as it is light but armed to the teeth. I think RMN combat vessel structure should be some 4-6 Light multimission frigates and 12 multimission corvettes like the Laksamana class.

ps, subangite, i presume you stay in subang. say met up for teh tarik session someday??

Thanks Ding, I'm currently in Australia, but I do call Subang home, teh tarik when I'm back in our tanah air sounds great.

By the way why do you think the NGPV wasted to be fitted as an OPV, Malaysia has an enourmous coastline, not to mention the EEZ and the at times pirate prone malacca straits, sabah coast. Thus Turning the NGPV's to multimission corvettes, AAW corvettes, ASuW corvettes, ASW corvette, would be in my opinion not necessary.

The great thing about the Meko 100 design is that retrofit and upgrade processes can be easily carried out thanks to a modular open architecture, thus changing these vessels and adding different systems can be done when called for by the RMN.

According to the Blohm + Voss press release " With the MEKO 100's, Malaysia is making a very special valuable contribution to protecting and safeguarding international maritime traffic, especially in the extremely busy Straits of Malacca at the transition from the Indian to the Pacific Ocean, part of the main merchant shipping route from Europe to Asia."

I think ASW, AAW capabilities wouldn't be necessary to protect Malaysian waters from ruthless rag-tag pirates. But this is based on the premise that the primary purpose for these vessels is to protect international maratime traffic. Why send ASW, AAW corvettes out on coastal patrol duties when OPVs are more suited for this job?

 

[Ding]

If it's about protecting the malaysian waters from pirates, then we have a perfectly capable FAC (gun) i think there's 6 of then in the Jerong class. They maybe old but at least they are still capable of patrolling the straits with sufficient patrol endurance.

Also i think the MMEA/Malaysian Coast Guard is established so that the RMN can concentrate on being a blue-water navy. the coast guards have taken most of the navy's patrol craft (including 2 OPV's of the Musytari class for long endurance patrol) and should be perfectly capable to do the job.

I think as a new procurement/asset for the RMN, it should support the navy's quest to become a blue-water force. Leave the policing of malaysian waters to the MMEA, that's what they are there for. But at least like you say, the ships is FFBNW, so we do have the option of uograding later on

 

[Subangite]

If it's about protecting the malaysian waters from pirates, then we have a perfectly capable FAC (gun) i think there's 6 of then in the Jerong class. They maybe old but at least they are still capable of patrolling the straits with sufficient patrol endurance.

I think there aren't enough ships for the MMEA, on the governments force structure planning, none are capable to enforce the outer regions EEZ especially in bad weather. The total area of the Malaysian maritime estate is around 152,000 nm², the small amount of "jerong class" or other naval assets in the MMEA cannot still sufficiently cover such a huge area.

Also i think the MMEA/Malaysian Coast Guard is established so that the RMN can concentrate on being a blue-water navy. the coast guards have taken most of the navy's patrol craft (including 2 OPV's of the Musytari class for long endurance patrol) and should be perfectly capable to do the job.

Whilst I do believe in the formation of the MMEA/Coast Guard, having the navy's old patrol crafts are still not enough for its mandated duties, and definately no where near "perfectly capable to do the job", the MMEA has a daunting job to be done with its current assets. The MMEA will assume responsibility for enforcement and SAR throughout a vast maritime estate. In some places, geography demands that vessels be capable of sustained operations far out to sea. In others, vessels are required to be nimble and fast. Maritime threats, risks, resources and uses vary considerably throughout the territorial sea, contiguous zone, EEZ and continental shelf.

Its ideal force structure as planned by the government calls for 39 vessels that include 10 helicopter carrying OPV's, 10 medium patrol boats (55-60m length), 15 high-speed patrol boats, amongst the 4 existing ex RMN patrol boats.

Source: http://www.mima.gov.my/mima/htmls/papers/pdf/mtaib/mmea.pdf

I think as a new procurement/asset for the RMN, it should support the navy's quest to become a blue-water force. Leave the policing of malaysian waters to the MMEA, that's what they are there for. But at least like you say, the ships is FFBNW, so we do have the option of uograding later on

The RMN as Blue water navy will not happen prehaps even in our life time, nor do I think thats their goal. The term blue water navy concerns navies that are able to project force beyond littoral waters, no South East Asian navy is even close to that capability. In fact no Asian navy is seen as blue water currently. Though maybe sometime in the near future, China and India would definately arrive to this status. Why should the RMN concentrate in blue water capability when its green water capabilities still needs much improvement?