Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Yes, a 23 year old female officer has died. Her death was announced by her father. No info yet in the other 5 on board.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
StingrayOZ said:
My condolences to those brave sailors.
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Six brave sailors & Airmen: The flight box and voice recorder has been recovered.
From Nova Scotia, Sub-Lt. Abbigail Cowbrough, a maritime systems engineering officer originally from Toronto, is confirmed dead.
Missing:Capt. Brenden MacDonald, a pilot originally from New Glasgow, Nova Scotia.
Capt. Kevin Hagen, a pilot originally from Nanaimo, British Columbia.
Capt. Maxime Miron-Morin, an air combat systems officer originally from Trois-Rivières, Québec.
Sub-Lt. Matthew Pyke, a naval weapons officer originally from Truro, Nova Scotia.
Master Cpl. Matthew Cousins, an airborne electronic sensor operator originally from Guelph, Ontario.
A SAD DAY AGAIN.... FOR OUR PROVINCE AND COUNTRY!
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
Underway said:
Combat Management Systems don't collect and collate data and then distribute it. They perform the detect to engage sequence and execute it. That is the heart of a CMS. CMS collects the data from the sensors then does all the math to ensure that whatever you are using to hit the target gets there. First you have to find the target and localize it. Identify, classify and track it. Then you have to fire and control the weapon and confirm there was an actual kill (this is called the detect to engage sequence). Developing the fire control solution: which is hitting a moving target, through a moving environment, with a moving projectile from a moving platform is extremely complicated. The sensor inputs come from many places, the environment/weather, ships attitude (gyro), weapon parameters (muzzle velocity, gun barrel temp, ammo type, ammo weight and performance etc...), radar, visual, and the list goes on. The more accurate information you can feed into the CMS the better your fire control solution.

As per the wiki entry "The Aegis Combat System (ACS) is an advanced command and control (command and decision, or C&D, in Aegis parlance) and weapon control system (WCS) that uses powerful computers and radars to track and guide weapons to destroy enemy targets."

It can be argued that the core command and decision making software/hardware needs to be Aegis for a platform to be an Aegis one. Your home computer is labeled by its operating system (Mac, Linux, Windows) and adding or subtracting other apps, or peripherals don't change that label. As such I'm comfortable saying that adding an "Aegis type" radar doesn't change the system to be Aegis, any more then adding a Thales APAR would make this a TACTICOS system.

At the end of the day I'm sure you can call it what you like, as long as it makes the right things go kaboom at the right time.
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Hi Underway. A great part of the detect to engage sequence in any CMS system is the collecting, displaying, evaluating and dissemination of any threat sequence which is what all CMS systems do. Yes, SPY 7 for the CSC Frigate will be essential to any early threat detection and of course the final command to engage will be a weapon selected that has the best chance of a kill. LM has been operating CMS 330 on the Halifax class now for almost 30 years, and has a more advanced detect to engage CCMS 330 system fitted on the CSC Frigates that may well out-perform it's older "brother".
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
The remains of the rest of the crew from 'Stalker 22" cyclone helo have been found today in a joint CAF USN mission. Global news update:
globalnews.ca

Remains of fallen Canadian Armed Forces members, helicopter located: DND | Globalnews.ca

In a news release Wednesday, DND said they were located early Wednesday morning by the CAF and United States navy search and recovery team near the CH-148 Cyclone crash site.
globalnews.ca globalnews.ca
This will at least give the grieving families at least some comfort. The fuselage seems to be mostly intact and the recovery mission is on-going.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
DAVID DUNLOP said:
Very cute Mr. "Super Moderator". And I suppose the CSC frigate will be able to submerge and replace our aging Victoria class?o_O
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Don't put ideas into my head. That thought hadn't crossed my mind.

You know that there is a history of taking the Mickey between the RCN & RNZN that goes back many decades. Things that shall remain at sea, but were all in great fun and I know that many Kiwi old salts remember with great fondness and belly laughs even when they've been on the receiving end. Each navy gave as good as it got.
 
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Albedo

Active Member
Barnold said:
Hi, I've been following the discussion about the Canadian Surface Combatant and haven't seen anything new lately, but tripped over something related to CEC while doing a general search related to the CSC. I hope I'm not violating any forum rules by posting this, but at some point, Gibbs & Cox, in support of Irving Shipbuilding, posted an opening for a Senior Cooperative Engagement Capability Engineer and Subject Matter Expert to work on the Canadian Surface Combatant project, integrating "the CEC system into the integrated AN/SPY-7 AEGIS radar/Canadian Combat Management System 330 (CMS) being developed by Lockheed Martin Canada".

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Barnold said:
The position that Gibbs & Cox were looking to fill, if I'm reading it correctly, was for a senior engineer to work on the CSC project at Irving, designing and testing the integration of the Cooperative Engagement Capability system with the CSC's "AN/SPY-7 AEGIS radar/Canadian Combat Management System 330".

It seemed notable to me because, though it's been reasonably speculated that the CSC might get CEC, this was the first solid trace that I, at least, have seen indicating that it probably is. Also of interest was the requirement for someone with a specific understanding of the employment of SM-2 and SM-6 missiles, appearing to confirm the RCN's choice of long range SAM.

Admittedly, I'm no expert, just someone who's been following the subject with interest, but it sure looks like the potential combination of SPY-7, AEGIS, CEC, and SM-6 could result in a very impressive AAW frigate.
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In this role, you will serve as our senior engineer and subject matter expert (SME) supporting our client, Irving Shipbuilding Inc. (ISI) on the Canadian Surface Combatant Project (CSC), for the integration of the AN/SPY-7 AEGIS radar system with the Canadian Combat Management System 330 (CMS) being developed by Lockheed Martin Canada. The emphasis for this position is in the area of AAW and the integration/use of the AN/SPY-7 radar with the Raytheon SM-2 and SM-6 SAMs. Essential responsibilities and activities include but are not limited to:
  • Providing technical expertise on the AN/SPY-7 AEGIS radar system with emphasis on integration of the radar system with both the SM-2 and SM-6 SAMs with CMS 330
  • Support the integration of AEGIS with the CMS 330
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Just a follow-up to the Senior Cooperative Engagement Capability Engineer position you found involving integrating SPY-7, AEGIS, CEC, and CMS 330 for the CSC where experience with SM-2 and SM-6 was required. There's now a Senior AEGIS Radar Engineer position that is explicitly to integrate SM-2 and SM-6 with CMS 330 for the CSC. Obviously things could change, especially with COVID-19 budget pressures, but 15 frigates with SPY-7, AEGIS, CEC and capable of SM-2 and SM-6 when loaded for AAW bodes well for the RCN. Especially considering people on this forum have estimated the CSC's SPY-7 to be better than SPY-1D in sensitivity and range.
ottawacitizen.com

Guns from Iroquois-class destroyers up for sale

The Canadian government is looking for buyers for the OTO Melara 76mm guns removed from the Royal Canadian Navy’s Iroquois-class destroyers.
ottawacitizen.com ottawacitizen.com
The 76mm guns from the Iroquois-class were put up for sale, but does anyone know if the SM-2 stocks were retained? Although buying new SM-2MR Block IIIC closer to when the CSC actually arrive might be more efficient than having to safely store old SM-2 for years and having to upgrade them to Block IIIC. Similarly, since the SM-6 is undergoing a major update to move from a 13.5" rocket motor to a 21" rocket motor, it'd be best to wait for SM-6 Block IB to be operational before buying.

John Fedup said:
So the RCN is getting 30 Zodiacs for $35 million. If powered by dual Yamaha 425 hp outboard motors, that is about $125,000 per boat. My question is what the hell is included in a 9 meter Zodiac that requires another $900,000 per boat?Contract awarded for Royal Canadian Navy's 30 new multi-role boats - Naval Today
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I guess we'll have to hope the communications, navigation, and sensor upgrades mentioned in that article are very impressive.
 
spoz

spoz

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
While not knowing what is included in the Canadian contract, that is the kind of money the RAN has been paying for its RIBs. These are not your average civilian pleasure boat type vessels.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
John Fedup said:
So the RCN is getting 30 Zodiacs for $35 million. If powered by dual Yamaha 425 hp outboard motors, that is about $125,000 per boat. My question is what the hell is included in a 9 meter Zodiac that requires another $900,000 per boat?Contract awarded for Royal Canadian Navy's 30 new multi-role boats - Naval Today
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I believe these Zodiacs were designed specifically to fit on the new CSC frigates in the Mission Bay to carry Special Ops troops among other tasks. The cranes on the Halifax class we have now are just not big enough to handle these new heavier Zods, but you're right, the company that got the job to make these "cadillacs" sure saw us coming!
 

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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Once again it all comes down to the accounting method and what is and isn't included in the contract. That said the ADF by comparison is spending $55 million on 41 boats built in Finland. These boats can vary widely in capabilities and protection levels so don't assume it overpriced but rather ask if others are going for the cheapest option and by extension least effective and safe.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
vonnoobie said:
Once again it all comes down to the accounting method and what is and isn't included in the contract. That said the ADF by comparison is spending $55 million on 41 boats built in Finland. These boats can vary widely in capabilities and protection levels so don't assume it overpriced but rather ask if others are going for the cheapest option and by extension least effective and safe.
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This decision by the ADF to buy RHIBs from Finland makes me shake my head. Why not buy internally in Australia like the "Whiskey-Alpha" boat? Canada, at least is buying from a company in B.C. called Zodiac Hurricane Technologies Inc. in Delta.
 
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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Could be any number of reasons for it from lack of forward planning on ADF end to better product abroad I don't know. In the end what is done is done now let's leave it at that. Don't want to derail any thread, the admins are watching, they are always watching...... Dun dun dun.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
DAVID DUNLOP said:
This decision by the ADF to buy RHIBs from Finland makes me shake my head. Why not buy internally in Australia like the "Whiskey-Alpha" boat? Canada, at least is buying from a company in B.C. called Zodiac Hurricane Technologies Inc. in Delta.
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You have to ask the question of whether or not the continual insistence upon buying domestically is providing Value for Money (VfM) for the taxpayer when equivalent or superior quality items can be acquired offshore for cheaper prices. Secondly, has the dogma of buying Canadian made only, lead to price gouging by the private sector contractors because they don't have foreign competitors?
vonnoobie said:
Could be any number of reasons for it from lack of forward planning on ADF end to better product abroad I don't know. In the end what is done is done now let's leave it at that. Don't want to derail any thread, the admins are watching, they are always watching...... Dun dun dun.
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Yes we are ...... Dun dun dun. :p :p
 
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