Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[RobWilliams]

Why do we care how many ferries they have compared to the RCN? Like that means anything actually useful so bin that chain of thought because it means SFA.

If you want to make a point, I suggest you make that point about the spending priorities of the RCN (or lack thereof) as opposed to making it seem like you believe the relative numbers of ferries/warships has any actual relevance.

 

[kato]

It is interesting that Denmark has a navy with 7 frigates compared to our 12

Eh, it's more like three frigates and two ships that can serve as adhoc frigates. The Thetis class are realistically OPVs, with both armament and crew numbers appropriate for this role, and at best comparable in role to the French Floreals. Much like the frigates, the other OPVs the Danes run these days were built cheaply in Eastern-European shipyards and are operated with skeleton crews only.

In addition Danish Navy ships (including the coastal patrol craft of the Naval Home Guard) fill all those roles that are left to Coast Guard or Police/State forces in other countries. There are no separate forces for these roles. If you really want to compare, you'll need to add the rather large number of large patrol vessels the CCG runs to the mix.

 

[alexsa]

The point I am making is that ONE province of Canada has almost as many ships as the entire country's RCN. Their ferries are well funded, their navy isn't. The RCN is facing a lengthly period of time with zero replenishment ships, I doubt whether their ferries would go so long without a ferry. Replacement replenishment ships should have entered the navy ten years ago, and they should have been bought a few years before that. Do the Canadian politicians have any shame over this matter? Obviously not. The Canadians are telling NATO, a organization they are proud being a member of, they are offering NATO frigates with zero support.

Sorry you analogy is nonsense. The RO-RO, RO-PAX and PAX ferries have a commercial imperative. Commercial includes these vessels acting as an extension of the land based system as opposed to having to make money in their own right (not to say that they don't). They stimulate economic activity which tends to underpin government revenue. To suggest the imperative for Ferry services and tankers are the same is plane silly. You would not have a ferry where it is not needed............ where it is needed it HAS to keep running.

These vessels are very hard worked and get the stuffing knocked out of them and continuation of service relies on a maintenance and replacement. In saying this some vessels are quite old.

The 'drivers' of the need for these services is quite different. If we were to extrapolate your thought process we would decry the fact that transport companies have more trucks than the army. The comparison is quite pointless.

 

[John Fedup]

Eh, it's more like three frigates and two ships that can serve as adhoc frigates. The Thetis class are realistically OPVs, with both armament and crew numbers appropriate for this role, and at best comparable in role to the French Floreals. Much like the frigates, the other OPVs the Danes run these days were built cheaply in Eastern-European shipyards and are operated with skeleton crews only.

In addition Danish Navy ships (including the coastal patrol craft of the Naval Home Guard) fill all those roles that are left to Coast Guard or Police/State forces in other countries. There are no separate forces for these roles. If you really want to compare, you'll need to add the rather large number of large patrol vessels the CCG runs to the mix.

I would have to agree that the Thetis class are not in the same class as Denmark's Iver Huitfeldt class or Canada's Halifax class but they are superior to our Kingston class and are ice capable, something the RCN lacks. We have nothing similar to the Absalons. There is an article at Defence Spending - Military Procurement - Arctic Sovereignty - Canadian Forces - Aerospace Industry - CASR Index - Canadian American Strategic Review - Military Vehicles - Military Aircraft - Armoured Vehicles - CASR Background - In Detail - Modest P discussing the modification of the Absalons class as a potential replacement for our tribal class destroyers.

As for your comment "cheaply built in Eastern European shipyards", do you mean they are of poor quality or inexpensive or both? I fear our new ships (to be built in Canada) will be expensive and poor quality at least for the first few ships built, later builds will be ok but still expensive.

 

[KiwiRob]

As for your comment "cheaply built in Eastern European shipyards", do you mean they are of poor quality or inexpensive or both? I fear our new ships (to be built in Canada) will be expensive and poor quality at least for the first few ships built, later builds will be ok but still expensive.

Which I was also wondering about, everything they have at the moment was built in Danish yards, in the future this might/will be a problem as there are no Danish yards left, so which vessels were cheaply built in Eastern European shipyards?

 

[John Fedup]

Which I was also wondering about, everything they have at the moment was built in Danish yards, in the future this might/will be a problem as there are no Danish yards left, so which vessels were cheaply built in Eastern European shipyards?

The last Danish frigate was completed by the now closed Odense Shipyard but I am not sure if it was built at the Danish location or their Lithuanian yard. The Lithuanian yard was to be sold off as well.

 

[KiwiRob]

Niels Juel was built in Denmark, in Odense, the last vessel to be launched at the yard before it closed.

 

[swerve]

Which I was also wondering about, everything they have at the moment was built in Danish yards, in the future this might/will be a problem as there are no Danish yards left, so which vessels were cheaply built in Eastern European shipyards?

The Iver Huitfeldts were partly built in East European yards, but finished in Denmark.

Denmark still has yards which can build ships. Karstensens has a 135 metre building dock, & recently received an order to build a third Knud Rasmussen class OPV.

 

[John Fedup]

I wonder about the fate of the two Mistral ships for Russia? Should the deal be cancelled, will the French navy acquire them or will they be put up for sale? If the price was right, perhaps the RCN and Cdn govt should consider one or both assuming our maritime helicopters ever arrive.

 

[RobWilliams]

It'd be interesting to see if the French at least take one, the requirement for a fourth LHD was dropped in the 2013 DWP but if a completed ship is dangled in front of them . . .well . . . .I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[John Fedup]

It'd be interesting to see if the French at least take one, the requirement for a fourth LHD was dropped in the 2013 DWP but if a completed ship is dangled in front of them . . .well . . . .I wouldn't be surprised.

Assuming no foreign bidder comes forth, the French navy likely will be very happy should the Russian deal actually get cancelled.

 

[John Fedup]

HMCS Iroquois will be under restricted operation due to cracks. HMCS Protecteur is likely gone so the RCN's decline continues while the process for replacement drags on. The Halifax frigates may soon be the only ships the RCN can put to sea.....well maybe a Victoria class sub once in a while.

 

[StobieWan]

Assuming no foreign bidder comes forth, the French navy likely will be very happy should the Russian deal actually get cancelled.

Do they have the manpower to keep another one at sea? I suspect the rest of the world (particularly anyone with borders with Russia would be quite cheerful at the deal going south)

 

[John Fedup]

Do they have the manpower to keep another one at sea? I suspect the rest of the world (particularly anyone with borders with Russia would be quite cheerful at the deal going south)

The ship requires 120-150 personnel for operation, not counting any aircrew so I guess France should be able to crew another vessel with a little effort and two if they had to. The Spanish/Australian Juan Carlos-Canberra ships need almost twice the crew. The smaller crew size would make the Mistral somewhat more viable for Canada if the opportunity to acquire these vessels become a possibility. At this point, it doesn't look like the sanction level will rise any further so this issue is probably mute now.

 

[John Fedup]

HMCS Iroquois is now out of service thus leaving only one destroyer on active duty. Our other remaining destroyer is in dry-dock for maintenance. Only 17 of the RCN's 33 ships are able to be utilized at the present time. I wonder how many sailors will want to stick around doing bugger all with no ships to sail on awaiting our non-functional national ship building program to ramp up?

 

[John Fedup]

HMCS Protecteur has arrived back to its base in BC after being towed back by the USN from Hawaii. The ship was heavily damaged by fire and the RCN has yet to reveal the extent of the damage. This ship was due to be retired in 2019. It will be interesting to see what options are put forward to maintain capability while the RCN awaits a replacement (likely many years).

 

[John Fedup]

From the Ottawa Citizen:

Rear Admiral W.S. Truelove, commander of MARPAC, updated folks on the situation with HMCS Protecteur, which arrived back to its home port of Esquimalt on the weekend.

“Looking ahead, PRO will remain alongside in Esquimalt in an extended readiness posture while the Board of Inquiry continues its investigation and a further damage assessment is completed,” Truelove noted.

 

[John Fedup]

The Ottawa Citizen is reporting today that the troubled CH-148 Cyclone helicopter has a new reworked deal between Sikorsky and the CDN Govt that will see deliveries restarting in 2015 with IOC off ships in 2016. Sikorsky must deliver the software necessary for full capability in 2018 Before payment is made. Canada has spent 1.7 billion so far which explains why this contract was never cancelled in Jan after the Dec2013 review. It should have been cancelled with Sikorsky's first screw up back in 2008. This paper concept was ordered by the previous Liberal Govt back in 2004! These morons ordered this concept after ordering 15 EH101s for SAR back in 1997. Buying more Merlins would have been too embarrassing to Liberal PM Chrétien who cancelled the original Naval/SAR helicopter deal back in 1992.

 

[KiwiRob]

Assuming no foreign bidder comes forth, the French navy likely will be very happy should the Russian deal actually get cancelled.

I was at Baltisky Shipyard yesterday, there are preparing the section they have built to tow to France, according to my guy there, everything is running to plan.

 

[John Fedup]

I was at Baltisky Shipyard yesterday, there are preparing the section they have built to tow to France, according to my guy there, everything is running to plan.

There was just too much money at stake for this deal to fall off the rails over the Ukraine situation.