Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[John Fedup]

A decision is expected by the RCN regarding the fate of the fire damaged HMCS Protecteur by late August. This forty year old relic should be consigned to the scrap yard. The Iroquois class destroyers should follow ASAP, regardless of how far off their replacements are. They are no longer shipshape for duty beyond Canada's continental shelf.

 

[Riga]

Noticed this article on modernisation of the Canadian frigates:
Canada Expands Frigate Upgrade Plans | Defense News | defensenews.com

Should this upgrade take the Class to an out of service date of 2030, what is the chance that they might take the thrashed Brit T23s or maybe even go for the by then proven T26 - which has room for modernisation as well?

 

[RobWilliams]

They'd be mental to take the Type 23s when there's an option for a domestically built modern FFG (in whatever flavour, British, French, Italian) on the table.

 

[Riga]

They'd be mental to take the Type 23s when there's an option for a domestically built modern FFG (in whatever flavour, British, French, Italian) on the table.

Perhaps a T26 Export Potential thread would be an idea?

Having read about the Australian requirements and the competing radar requirements the future seems predicated on either the AEGIS system or the SAMSON type requirement. Then there is the missile integration which to my uneducated mind also seems to split between the American or European systems.

However, the reason I suggested thrashed T23 as also having potential for export was because of what I read about the New Zealand upgrade and the fact it will give them a low end frigate according the article.

Standing by to be educated

 

[John Fedup]

They'd be mental to take the Type 23s when there's an option for a domestically built modern FFG (in whatever flavour, British, French, Italian) on the table.

True, just wish something would start to happen.

 

[John Fedup]

Noticed this article on modernisation of the Canadian frigates:
Canada Expands Frigate Upgrade Plans | Defense News | defensenews.com

Should this upgrade take the Class to an out of service date of 2030, what is the chance that they might take the thrashed Brit T23s or maybe even go for the by then proven T26 - which has room for modernisation as well?

The Halifax modernization program is the only bright spot for the RCN. It is on budget and slightly ahead of schedule. As for the T26, it was rejected earlier but given the glacial pace of our naval ship procurement perhaps it could be reconsidered. The highest priority should be the AORs and new destroyers. Instead, we are building 2 Berlin class ships in Vancouver for the same price the UK is paying for 4 larger Tide class ships from S Korea which will be delivered faster. Instead of destroyers, the Halifax yard is building AOPVs despite the fact none of our Tribal class destroyers are any longer seaworthy.

 

[RobWilliams]

Perhaps a T26 Export Potential thread would be an idea?

Most T26 export talk has been divided around the seperate forums for the different services but that may be an idea.

Having read about the Australian requirements and the competing radar requirements the future seems predicated on either the AEGIS system or the SAMSON type requirement. Then there is the missile integration which to my uneducated mind also seems to split between the American or European systems.

It's simpler than that, Aus - and Canada - would go for US missiles & SAMPSON wouldn't even enter into the equation.

In both cases, it'd probably be ESSM/ fixed panel arrays whatever they choose to go with.

However, the reason I suggested thrashed T23 as also having potential for export was because of what I read about the New Zealand upgrade and the fact it will give them a low end frigate according the article.

Yeah, it'll give them a frigate which may be slightly less effective than the Type 23 but the issues with gutting them and fitting NZ specific systems, overhauling them and getting them going isn't worth the performance differences, may as well get a modern FFG.

 

[John Fedup]

Most T26 export talk has been divided around the seperate forums for the different services but that may be an idea.



It's simpler than that, Aus - and Canada - would go for US missiles & SAMPSON wouldn't even enter into the equation.

In both cases, it'd probably be ESSM/ fixed panel arrays whatever they choose to go with.



Yeah, it'll give them a frigate which may be slightly less effective than the Type 23 but the issues with gutting them and fitting NZ specific systems, overhauling them and getting them going isn't worth the performance differences, may as well get a modern FFG.

The current Halifax modernization program has the current ESSM system. The additional 2017 modernization proposal will likely specify the next generation ESSM system as per the Defence News article referenced earlier.

 

[AegisFC]

Having read about the Australian requirements and the competing radar requirements the future seems predicated on either the AEGIS system or the SAMSON type requirement. Then there is the missile integration which to my uneducated mind also seems to split between the American or European systems.

Standing by to be educated

Chances are Canada will go with APAR, they are a development partner for the system and for the range of missions the RCN is likely to take part in it is a great system. Also the RCN already uses SM-2 and ESSM and there is no reason to change.

 

[swerve]

Yeah. Already integrated with the missiles Canada uses, tried & tested but still current, in service with allies, & as you say, Canada participated in development. Considerable advantages.

 

[icelord]

I would think RCN would do well with looking at the Danes and their Absalons and Ivers, noting that they do patrol colder waters and re enforced hulls for arctic regions. Offers a larger vessel then Halifax but allows for more long term options and changes.

 

[harryriedl]

I would think RCN would do well with looking at the Danes and their Absalons and Ivers, noting that they do patrol colder waters and re enforced hulls for arctic regions. Offers a larger vessel then Halifax but allows for more long term options and changes.

The biggest problem before looking at platforms is what dose the RCN want to do. As it seems extremely unclear as their force development doesn't seem to make a huge amount of sense from what has been published in the public domain.

Their is the Arctic sovereignty stuff with the new icebreakers and helicopters which aren't so ancient. Then their is the late extremely expensive Tanker program which doesn't add any extra capacity vis vis tanking or other auxiliary functions.

Then their is frigate and destroyer fleet the Iroquois are are old and have issues with cracking and their kit is getting dated by international standards. Their replacement is merging with the Halifax's(who have had their decommissioning pushed into 2030). What sort of model do they want their future fleet to look like the same as the Cold War fleet of surface combatants, or a more expeditionary force built around a LPD/LHD ect like Aus or NZ or a distributed force like the F125 program or Danish Stanflex, and Absolon once that is know then you can start talking about the platforms.

What fleet dose the RCN want and what can it afford through the insanity of the Canadian procurement? Once that is answered then look at what sort of vessels might fit.

 

[Delta204]

What fleet dose the RCN want and what can it afford through the insanity of the Canadian procurement? Once that is answered then look at what sort of vessels might fit.

You've certainly touched on some good points here. I would say (IMHO) that primarily the RCN views itself as a ASW / blue water escort fleet; this is something the RCN has done since WWII and has continued to focus through out the Cold War and after. Some of the reasons for this I believe would be cost, geography and politics.

Canada has traditionally viewed itself as a naval power that can "punch above it's weight" but we cannot afford the full spectrum of naval capabilities such as LHD/LPD, SSN's, carriers ect. so we must choose what is most practical. The ASW frigates in the Halifax class have been a good example of giving the RCN a broad and versatile force that can be deployed in almost any environment from chasing pirates, drug smuggling operations, naval boardings to high end naval operations such as integrating with USN CVN's. As John mentioned above, these have been the one bright spot of the RCN in recent times. Additionally, the Halifax were cheap enough that we could buy them in quantity. In Canada numbers matter since our navy is split in two between Atlantic / Pacific; while there seems to be a trend in naval procurement these days to sacrifice quantity for greater quality - I believe the RCN would be very reluctant to make this tradeoff. This is also why I would be reluctant for the RCN procure LHD's like Mistral, though it comes up in debate from time to time, since I worry it would be at the cost of our future surface combatants - not a trade I would like to make.

Your absolutely correct though in pointing out that our procurement system is a mess. In Canada we enjoy zero competitive advantage in building naval vessels compared to other European or Asian shipyards, yet the govt. is adamant we build our ships domestically so we are gonna pay through the nose and I'm sure it'll turn in a complete disaster. So I'm holding on to (very faint) hope that the govt. reconsiders the type 26, a program already funded and well underway, rather than having to go through the growing pains of designing our own ship.

I personally believe the type 26 is the most natural fit for the RCN out of all the possible options available since it is a natural ASW hull with what looks to be excellent versatility. Fit them with APAR, strike length mk 41 VLS and a armament of SM-6, ESSM blk II, ASROC, LRASM; add the much anticipated (and much delayed) Cyclone helo and we would have a pretty serious blue water capability at 15 hulls!

 

[ngatimozart]

Seems the Russians have been annoying the RCN in the Black Sea. Russia denies military planes approached Canadian warship | Reuters The Russians appear to be getting a little touchy.

 

[ASSAIL]

You've certainly touched on some good points here. I would say (IMHO) that primarily the RCN views itself as a ASW / blue water escort fleet; this is something the RCN has done since WWII and has continued to focus through out the Cold War and after. Some of the reasons for this I believe would be cost, geography and politics.

Canada is also an Asia- Pacific power and at some time must develop capability to react to the reality of a region that is dynamic and coping with the emerging power and assertiveness of China.
The region is one which regularly experiences natural disasters and looks to rich, developed nations to play their part in helping to relieve that suffering.

Therefor, to suggest that the RCN should be NATO centric may be somewhat outdated despite "cost and politics" which is always a challenge.

 

[John Fedup]

I would think RCN would do well with looking at the Danes and their Absalons and Ivers, noting that they do patrol colder waters and re enforced hulls for arctic regions. Offers a larger vessel then Halifax but allows for more long term options and changes.

Not sure if the RCN is seriously looking at Danish designs or not but casr.ca had an interesting article about the Absalon class as a potential AWD.

 

[John Fedup]

Canada is also an Asia- Pacific power and at some time must develop capability to react to the reality of a region that is dynamic and coping with the emerging power and assertiveness of China.
The region is one which regularly experiences natural disasters and looks to rich, developed nations to play their part in helping to relieve that suffering.

Therefor, to suggest that the RCN should be NATO centric may be somewhat outdated despite "cost and politics" which is always a challenge.

IMO the RCN will likely morph into a coastal navy at best. The apathy of the Canadian public relating to defence matters has drained political will in all parties. The national ship building program is going nowhere and our fleet is rusting out. I seriously doubt a replacement build for the Halifax class will ever get going and I see zero hope for an Iroquois class replacement.

 

[Delta204]

IMO the RCN will likely morph into a coastal navy at best. The apathy of the Canadian public relating to defence matters has drained political will in all parties. The national ship building program is going nowhere and our fleet is rusting out. I seriously doubt a replacement build for the Halifax class will ever get going and I see zero hope for an Iroquois class replacement.

This is a troubling possibility, especially if next year's election goes bad. Much of the discussion in Canada about defense matters has been largely focused on Afghanistan / terrorism over the last 10 years and as a result other defense issues seem to have fallen off the radar. Perhaps the recent situation in Ukraine will remind Canadians the importance of being able to contribute meaningfully to NATO; and that we must also take a serious look at our own defense capabilities since we are also a neighbor of Russia. Regardless, if we decide we're not going to bother with a blue water navy then Canadians must understand the implications of this as well. First, the RCN is extremely active around the world working with NATO and other allies, and without a blue water capability these partnerships will erode as well as our influence on security matters. Secondly, Americans view their own security in the context of North American security; and if they feel we are not pulling our own weight they will simply fill in the gap and cut us out of the loop. The Canadian public will then have to get comfortable with the reality of US SSN's regularly patrolling our coastal & northern waters - without any sort of courtesy heads up. Just because we've given up caring about who else may be lurking about doesn't mean the Americans will.

Nevertheless, the decisions that must be made in the next few years for the RCN will have significant implications on its future for decades to come.

 

[Delta204]

Canada is also an Asia- Pacific power and at some time must develop capability to react to the reality of a region that is dynamic and coping with the emerging power and assertiveness of China.
The region is one which regularly experiences natural disasters and looks to rich, developed nations to play their part in helping to relieve that suffering.

Therefor, to suggest that the RCN should be NATO centric may be somewhat outdated despite "cost and politics" which is always a challenge.

I agree with you that Canada must improve it's capability in the Pacific. While the Americans have begun their "pivot" there seems to be a reluctance in Canada to follow suit. Currently the RCN is distributed approximately 60/40 between Atlantic and Pacific. Even still I feel that the Pacific theatre characterized by its vastness, increasing proliferation of SSK's & SSN's, large & increasing volume of merchant shipping ect. would favor a type 26 style ASW frigate.

While a LHD / LPD centered expeditionary fleet offers excellent versatility including natural disasters, quick reaction forces ect. I would not be willing to make the trade at the expense of our planned 15 surface combatants. If (big if) Canada sees an increase in defense spending in the coming years I think then a LHD type vessel would make sense. Personally, I find the Dutch Karel Doorman an intriguing option. Ironically perhaps, it appears to be pretty close to what the initial Canadian JSS was supposed to look like.

 

[John Fedup]

This is a troubling possibility, especially if next year's election goes bad. Much of the discussion in Canada about defense matters has been largely focused on Afghanistan / terrorism over the last 10 years and as a result other defense issues seem to have fallen off the radar. Perhaps the recent situation in Ukraine will remind Canadians the importance of being able to contribute meaningfully to NATO; and that we must also take a serious look at our own defense capabilities since we are also a neighbor of Russia. Regardless, if we decide we're not going to bother with a blue water navy then Canadians must understand the implications of this as well. First, the RCN is extremely active around the world working with NATO and other allies, and without a blue water capability these partnerships will erode as well as our influence on security matters. Secondly, Americans view their own security in the context of North American security; and if they feel we are not pulling our own weight they will simply fill in the gap and cut us out of the loop. The Canadian public will then have to get comfortable with the reality of US SSN's regularly patrolling our coastal & northern waters - without any sort of courtesy heads up. Just because we've given up caring about who else may be lurking about doesn't mean the Americans will.

Nevertheless, the decisions that must be made in the next few years for the RCN will have significant implications on its future for decades to come.

The complicating factor is all of our major defence assets need replacing at the same time. The sheer cost of the new surface combatant ships and the proposed fighter replacement taken together gets all the lefties in a sissy fit. The other issue is the dysfunctional procurement process. It is leading to questionable decisions, e.g. Upgrading the Auroras instead of of replacing them with much more capable P-8s because the upgrade process is much easier to get done. The fixed wing SAR project and the maritime helicopter projects further illustrate the problem.