Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[John Fedup]

This article suggests the possibility of a CSC decision in early October at a defence show in Halifax. Fingers crossed!

Feds closing in on winning bidder for $60-billion warship project - The Hill Times

 

[hauritz]

This article suggests the possibility of a CSC decision in early October at a defence show in Halifax. Fingers crossed!

Feds closing in on winning bidder for $60-billion warship project - The Hill Times

I can't find much about when the first ship will be built other than construction will start in the early 20s and the first ship will be in service by the mid 20s. This seems somewhat optimistic since both Australia and Britain are ahead of Canada and yet neither country expects to see a ship in service before the late 20s.

When you look at the delays experienced with the Protecteur class and the lack of recent experience in building warships it is hard to imagine this project going smoothly.

 

[ngatimozart]

I can't find much about when the first ship will be built other than construction will start in the early 20s and the first ship will be in service by the mid 20s. This seems somewhat optimistic since both Australia and Britain are ahead of Canada and yet neither country expects to see a ship in service before the late 20s.

When you look at the delays experienced with the Protecteur class and the lack of recent experience in building warships it is hard to imagine this project going smoothly.

Yep, I do agree because it is the Canadians that we are talking about.

 

[John Newman]

Yep, I do agree because it is the Canadians that we are talking about.

Yes all too true. And lets not forget the mottos of Canadian politicians when it comes to Defence matters:

"Let's make a decision NOT to make a decision" and "Why do today what you can leave until tomorrow".

Here's another good one I came across:

Federal officials don't want to be pinned down on a date to start building new navy: documents

The appropriate quote is:

"DND cautioned against setting a hard production date to work towards, noting the challenges this approach caused on AOPS,” the report noted. DND officials warned that committing to a specific time to start cutting steel on the warships “will add additional risk.”

Now that is a Yes Minister moment! What a Joke!!

 

[76mmGuns]

This article suggests the possibility of a CSC decision in early October at a defence show in Halifax. Fingers crossed!

Feds closing in on winning bidder for $60-billion warship project - The Hill Times

Was reading this and thinking that Australia seems to have some influence in this decision this time round in two of the three choices.

If it's the Type 26- Canada will be using experience from both UK and Aust, and it will have access to Type 26 personnel and facilities literally around the world- UK across Atlantic, Aust across Pacific/or Indian, if UK to Aust to Cda.

If it's the Navantia, it uses Saab Australia expertise, and again replace UK with Spain for port facilities and personnel access. (and then if the US choose Navantia as well!!! )

I think it's quite an exciting future

 

[John Fedup]

Yes all too true. And lets not forget the mottos of Canadian politicians when it comes to Defence matters:

"Let's make a decision NOT to make a decision" and "Why do today what you can leave until tomorrow".

Here's another good one I came across:

Federal officials don't want to be pinned down on a date to start building new navy: documents

The appropriate quote is:

"DND cautioned against setting a hard production date to work towards, noting the challenges this approach caused on AOPS,” the report noted. DND officials warned that committing to a specific time to start cutting steel on the warships “will add additional risk.”

Now that is a Yes Minister moment! What a Joke!!

I also saw that "pinned down" article. A specific date adds risk? I would say each year of delay adding 3 billion to the program cost is a bigger frigging risk to ever getting enough CSC ships built. Only pollies can come up with this $hit.

 

[StingrayOZ]

"DND cautioned against setting a hard production date to work towards, noting the challenges this approach caused on AOPS,” the report noted. DND officials warned that committing to a specific time to start cutting steel on the warships “will add additional risk.”

Genius.. There is a risk we won't meet the deadline, so I eliminated the risk by eliminating the deadline.

Obviously from the school of Project Management where you delete or your milestones, deadlines, benchmarks, monitoring, KPI's. What could go wrong.

Should be interesting benchmarking the UK, AU, US and CA ship building project. Given the type of ships, time frames etc. I imagine some giant score board somewhere..

 

[John Newman]

Genius.. There is a risk we won't meet the deadline, so I eliminated the risk by eliminating the deadline.

Obviously from the school of Project Management where you delete or your milestones, deadlines, benchmarks, monitoring, KPI's. What could go wrong.

Should be interesting benchmarking the UK, AU, US and CA ship building project. Given the type of ships, time frames etc. I imagine some giant score board somewhere..

Giant scoreboard? A brilliant idea!!

Maybe at every meeting of the 'Five Eyes' community we could get Scotty Cam from 'The Block' to line all of the nations up and give them a score on their progress.

I wonder which nation might score a zero?? Ha ha!!

 

[seaspear]

I may have missed this point if earlier discussed but with Canada's naval procurement for replacement of the Halifax class , was there a consideration to having a more diverse fleet e.g. some ships more configured for asw as others would be aaw in other words similar to the R.A.N with Hobart and Hunter classes ?

 

[ngatimozart]

I may have missed this point if earlier discussed but with Canada's naval procurement for replacement of the Halifax class , was there a consideration to having a more diverse fleet e.g. some ships more configured for asw as others would be aaw in other words similar to the R.A.N with Hobart and Hunter classes ?

[sarcasm on] that would be to logical [sarcasm off]

Note: sarcasm not aimed at seaspear.

 

[KiwiRob]

I may have missed this point if earlier discussed but with Canada's naval procurement for replacement of the Halifax class , was there a consideration to having a more diverse fleet e.g. some ships more configured for asw as others would be aaw in other words similar to the R.A.N with Hobart and Hunter classes ?

If Wikipedia is correct that's the plan.

It is anticipated that two CSC ship variants will be acquired to replace the specific capabilities of the Iroquois-class destroyers and Halifax-class frigates. As such, while both variants will have the necessary combat capabilities to operate in air, surface and subsurface threat environments, a small number of ships (up to five) will additionally incorporate the sensors, guided weapons and command and fire control facilities necessary to perform large area air defence. The remaining ships (up to fifteen) will replace the capabilities provided by the current fleet of Halifax-class frigates

 

[John Fedup]

The RCN may have a plan on how CSC ships are to be configured but pollies will have another, minimal as politically possible. I dare say our financial position in the coming years will further restrict capabilities, especially since NAFTA is likely dead for Canada. This could also effect the build number currently at 15 ships.

 

[John Fedup]

Although I have no idea what is actually included in this contract, 10 ABs for 9 billion US seems like a hell of a deal, about 1.35 billion CDN each compared to the projected costs for the CSC. As ABs are larger, there would significant infrastructure costs and crewing them would be difficult and expensive so it doesn't really matter. It would be interesting to know more details.

Navy Awards Ingalls 6 Destroyers, Bath Iron Works 4 in Multiyear Deal; Ingalls to Build Both 2018 Ships - USNI News

 

[beegee]

Although I have no idea what is actually included in this contract, 10 ABs for 9 billion US seems like a hell of a deal, about 1.35 billion CDN each compared to the projected costs for the CSC. As ABs are larger, there would significant infrastructure costs and crewing them would be difficult and expensive so it doesn't really matter. It would be interesting to know more details.

Navy Awards Ingalls 6 Destroyers, Bath Iron Works 4 in Multiyear Deal; Ingalls to Build Both 2018 Ships - USNI News

According to the attached document, a flight IIA vessel procured in FY2012 had a procurement cost of over US$2b. I'm guessing there are some important bits missing from the contract linked above, like weapon system/sensors, etc.

The Navy’s proposed FY2012 budget requests $1,980.7 million in procurement funding for the DDG-51 planned for procurement in FY2012. This funding, together with $48.0 million in advance procurement funding that the Navy requested for the ship in its proposed FY2011 budget, would complete the ship’s total estimated procurement cost of $2,028.7 million.

 

[John Fedup]

I suspect you are correct, lots of kit likely missing from this contract. This multi-year buy probably does provide a somewhat better base price compared to recent AB builds however and when the missing kit is added in, the overall price should be better after allowing for inflation adjustments.

 

[seaspear]

With the Canadian Single Class Surface Combatant Project apart from old Wiki reports what does the Canadian government set out in its requirements for the capabilities of these ships in aaw and asw but for a ship to be configured first as first batch as an aaw then later second batch as asw should mean significant differences is this correct?

 

[hauritz]

With the Canadian Single Class Surface Combatant Project apart from old Wiki reports what does the Canadian government set out in its requirements for the capabilities of these ships in aaw and asw but for a ship to be configured first as first batch as an aaw then later second batch as asw should mean significant differences is this correct?

For the money Canada is planning to spend I would just do what Australia is doing with the Hunter class and combine the capabilities into a single hull.

 

[ngatimozart]

For the money Canada is planning to spend I would just do what Australia is doing with the Hunter class and combine the capabilities into a single hull.

Unfortunately that is far to logical for the ruling classes of our Canadian cousins. Even the poms and the Indians could understand the logic of that - acting on being a totally different matter. Mind you it is easy enough for us Kiwis and Aussies to criticise; we've had our fair share of defence acquisition fubars over time. We've just seemed to have learned some of the lessons from the worst of them.

 

[John Fedup]

With one AOPS in the water and two more to follow shortly, only now is someone asking about Chinese content? I guess this should be no surprise given the brilliance of our procurement system and current PM, junior. BTW, his moniker may have to be replaced by one I saw used by a commentator on another site, " Justafool".

Chinese-made equipment in Canada's Arctic ships under scrutiny | CBC News

 

[ManteoRed]

With one AOPS in the water and two more to follow shortly, only now is someone asking about Chinese content? I guess this should be no surprise given the brilliance of our procurement system and current PM, junior. BTW, his moniker may have to be replaced by one I saw used by a commentator on another site, " Justafool".

Chinese-made equipment in Canada's Arctic ships under scrutiny | CBC News

If the request for knowledge on Chinese content has been a pretty recent thing, may have something to do with this.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

Basically using small microchips to pre-infect new built equipment. And even once you discover there's an infection, there's nearly no way to "wipe out" the infection because its built directly into the hardware. Its like clearing malware off your computer that just reinfects when you reset the system.