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Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Was just visiting the Save the Royal Navy site and read a summary of of the Tide project. Four ships delivered for £550 million plus £150 million for outfitting in the U.K. For a total of £700 million or about 1.2 billion CDN. The vessels took 4 years to build, two are in service and the others will be shortly. Constrast this with the JSS which currently estimated at 3.4 billion minimum. Delivery, WTF knows! Building this type of vessel in Canada is beyond stupid. SeaSpan and if politically necessary, Davie, can build icebreakers and F&O vessels, not AORs. Even the Asterix is a poor deal compared to the Tides. If the S. Korean government wants to subsidize and bail out their ship builders, fine by me. It is a bettter than having Canadian taxpayers providing corporate welfare to shipyards that have no ability to build these type of ships competitively. For combat ships, we have to bite the bullet and pay up.
Supporting the Royal Navy at sea – the Tide class tankers
That four year delivery span was at the RFA's arrangement by the way - if all four had been required to be delivered at the same time, that could have been done.
Better to save a few quid on not very complex tankers to spend on the surface combatants.
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
John I do not disagree with you in the least but I believe we will ultimately find out that the government and the military will be found complicit in combining a lot of costs for other things under the bill for the AORs. Port infrastructure, shipyard infrastructure, training support, the cost of renting allied tankers and the Asterix . in the end the only one involved in this debauckle who cared about the Navy is the one being persecuted by the government, Vice Admiral Mark Norman .
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Even if we allow three times the cost of a Tide for a JSS, that works out to about $800 million per ship or 1.6 billion for two. That leaves another 1.6 billion. They are going to need some pretty creative accounting. Sadly, pollies have the people available for this, some of them sit in Parliament.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Exactly spot on!
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
Definition of Canada?
Third World Country with a First World Name.
Corruption at high levels has resulted in a public acceptance of such foolishness in Government .
Third World Country with a First World Name.
Corruption at high levels has resulted in a public acceptance of such foolishness in Government .
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
This is also what makes the Australian Continous build plan such a good one. We can not currently build anything over 160m and with only 3 ships over 160m required in the short to med term(2 AORs and the Choules replacement) we are not going to bother
Supply and Stalwart are being acquired for the RAN at a project cost of about $A650 million, very close to the apparent unit costs of the Tides; and the RNZN ship is in the same ballpark allowing for the fact that she is a one off and ice strengthened. So about $300 US would seem to be the going rate for an AOR in the 20-30 thousand ton range. Even allowing for differences in what is counted in the announced costs, as with AOPS Canada seems to be paying way over the odds.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The Harry DeWolfe AOPS will be launched in Oct and sea trials will continue into 2019. The progress of this project will be an indicator of how things will go with the follow on CSC program. Hopefully all goes well with this and the next 4 ships. A sixth ship might be procured but probably only if there is a delay in the CSC.
Canada's first Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship expected in October
Canada's first Arctic Offshore Patrol Ship expected in October
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
spoz
The pricing breakdown of the Aotearoa has never been released to the best of my knowledge (if anyone has seen it, please contribute a link).
Based on other NZ military contracts from the same time period (e.g. the T-6 training aircraft), the quoted cost probably includes a hefty chunk of support and maintenance costs to be provided by the supplier.
If that is the case, the NZ and Australian AOR costs would match up very well.
Either way, it is clear that Canada is paying waaay over the going rate for their tanker capability.
It occurs to me the NZ tanker with its ice-strengthened hull would have been a good match for the Canadian navy. Damn site cheaper too.
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
Alternatively, the Norwegians are getting an Aegir 18 from DSME, which is a scaled-down MARS. It is winterised for cold weather but without an ice-strengthened hull, as Norway has its own icebreakers.
I was expecting NZ to order the same design but modified for light ice. Presumably Hyundai must have come up with a better offer.
Either Korean option would have been massively cheaper for Canada, and allowed them to put the savings somewhere useful like the CSC programme.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The savings from a foreign AOR build could also come close to funding BOTH a heavy ice breaker and a sixth AOPS. It would ensure the Irving workforce is kept busy until the CSC is started and SeaSpan could start building the urgently needed heavy ice breaker followed a second one with the money already allocated. Why would we expect this though, we can't even get a &sucking pipeline built!
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
NIMBY and political correctness run amock is screwing Canada. Our military is hamstrung by a procurement process that is horrendous. The pipeline project is an example of a federal judge that needs to be fired.
We cannot continue to pay for the sins of our ancestors. Times were different and terrible things were done across the globe as part of globalism and exploration. The KM pipeline is a national priority and a minority elite has killed the expansion.
I hate to say this but in order for the western allied nations to maintain existing force levels we need to have our populace face a military situation to realize how precious our lifestyles and the freedoms that we enjoy really are. The neverending muslim engagements across the middle east, northern africa and the southern european theater do not resonate in the daily lives of Canadians or other nations .
We cannot continue to pay for the sins of our ancestors. Times were different and terrible things were done across the globe as part of globalism and exploration. The KM pipeline is a national priority and a minority elite has killed the expansion.
I hate to say this but in order for the western allied nations to maintain existing force levels we need to have our populace face a military situation to realize how precious our lifestyles and the freedoms that we enjoy really are. The neverending muslim engagements across the middle east, northern africa and the southern european theater do not resonate in the daily lives of Canadians or other nations .
Some good news for the RCN, both Calgary and Asterix are taking part in Exercise Kakadu in the Timor Sea near Darwin.
HMCS Vancouver was here before RIMPAC so they are certainly on the move and Asterix is certainly giving the RCN legs so desperately needed. I can only say that Admiral Norman had more vision than his political masters.
The following link has some very nice pics if you click on the small images top left
Canadian refuelling a first for Stuart at Kakadu 18
HMCS Vancouver was here before RIMPAC so they are certainly on the move and Asterix is certainly giving the RCN legs so desperately needed. I can only say that Admiral Norman had more vision than his political masters.
The following link has some very nice pics if you click on the small images top left
Canadian refuelling a first for Stuart at Kakadu 18
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
In the unlikely event we get a new government in 2019, perhaps Asterix can be renamed Adm Norman! It might be enough compensation (along with his job back) to forego a massive financial penalty when the case against him is tossed out of court.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
This Frontline Defence article is a summary of the CSC program so far. If a contract is actually awarded in early 2019 I would be pleasantly surprised. I think the lawyers are already circling.
10242-Canada’s-Combat-Ship-Procurement-Process| FrontLine Defence
10242-Canada’s-Combat-Ship-Procurement-Process| FrontLine Defence
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Need to do their Homework a bit better on the Navantia bid, Norway got the F-312 not the F-105.
First AOPS launching tomorrow: (no title)