Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[swerve]

Actually that is pretty much in line with what Australia has budgeted for its new frigates. Australia is looking at $35 billion for 9 frigates and the Australia and Canadian dollar is fairly equal these days.

The UK is paying around £3.7 billion ($6 billion) for 3 type 26. That is about half the price but I am not sure what that includes.

I am told that they will be recycling a lot of the equipment from the type 23 so that would keep the costs down.

According to people who've looked beyond the headlines, that £3.7 billion includes most, but not all, of the money (about £2 billion) already spent or committed for design, long-lead items (not necessarily for just three ships), & new facilities built for long-term support. It's not the manufacturing cost of three ships.

Type 26 - where does all the money go?

I've read reports that because of building & refit schedules it won't be possible to do a one-to-one switch of kit from retiring Type 23s to Type 26/31e, & we're likely to need a couple of extra ship sets of CAMM launchers, radars, etc. I think that the first to be built would probably get new kit, with following ships getting the (presumably refurbished) equipment from the T23s the first few new frigates replace.

The trouble with all this contractual & budgetary jiggery-pokery is that we can't tell how much we're paying for the ships themselves. It still seems a lot, though.

 

[hauritz]

With the RN announcing preliminary info about the Type 31 maybe it's time the RCN recognizes the reality of the global security situation and considers a two tier build.

Do all of the new surface combatants need to have the high end sensors and armament or can we get along with a little less? My thought is yes we can. A fleet of six Iver Hutfeld, six Absalon and six Type 31. The twelve Danish hulls are similar in design allowing for economic scale. The six Type 31 could be built by someone other than Irving to allow concurrent builds. The Type 31 could fulfill the same missions for the RCN as the RN plans; home water defence., the Caribbean and the Med. The T31 would offer many opportunities of showing the flag while retaining the higher end hulls for higher threats.

The discussions have already been had on the advantages of a flex deck as per the Absalon style vessels. The ability to move outsize cargo quickly by see in times of HADR operations would be beneficial. A look at events ongoing in this years hurricane season are all that's needed to justify this type of purchase IMHO.

If the UK can build a general purpose frigate for $500 million I am sure we can.

Like the Brits we ran a series of ships that provided yeoman service for decades. Most of our Cold War fleet were 3000 ton ships with big choppers and a self protection armament. T31 may fill some of our boxes at a manageable price.

Ship numbers do have a quality all of their own. I sometimes wonder whether or not medium size powers such as Canada and Australia might not be better off with two tier navies.

Something like a mix of 9 large frigates and 12 light frigates instead of what Canada is currently planning.

Even the United States is looking at reintroducing frigates to their fleet and of course the UK will have the type 31.

 

[Novascotiaboy]

Hauritz I completely agree with your comments. As a middle power our past has been to support the likes of the UK and the US around the world. In the last 50 years we have predominantly offered no more than a couple of surface combatants supported by an AOR on operations. Once our carrier was sold off for scrap(lol? India) we no longer had an independent offensive capacity.

I see the advantages of vessels like the Holland OPV or the T31e options in service of the RCN.

The security situation has changed greatly in the last twenty years. Canadas LEADMARK 2020 naval plan is questionable in its direction. Canada needs to realize what our partners are recognizing. One size doesn't fit all.

Flexibility is today's mantra. The ability to do more in more places other than the North Atlantic is our reality.

The Dewolfe AOPS are big ships. Built for constabulary operations in our north but also suitable for other deployments but warships they are not. A 25 mm cannon offers little in a naval confrontation. From the brochures for the known T31e options all have a self defence and offensive capability almost equal to our current Halifax albeit without the sensor and C and C capabilities.

It's unlikely our naval commanders will relinquish their desire for the high end across the whole of the fleet but one can hope common sense will prevail and the RCN becomes a more versatile fleet.

On another note HMCS St. John's is being prepped to head south to offer support post Hurricane Irma. Too bad AOR Asterix isn't ready. She would have offered far more HADR support than a frigate but at least we are helping. All the best to her and her crew.

 

[ASSAIL]

Actually that is pretty much in line with what Australia has budgeted for its new frigates. Australia is looking at $35 billion for 9 frigates and the Australia and Canadian dollar is fairly equal these days.

The UK is paying around £3.7 billion ($6 billion) for 3 type 26. That is about half the price but I am not sure what that includes.

I am told that they will be recycling a lot of the equipment from the type 23 so that would keep the costs down.

The Australian costs include through life running and sustainment costs.
As we have discussed many times in this forum, it's almost impossible to compare each nations procurement costs as we never really know what's in or out.

 

[John Fedup]

The RCN's new supply ship will be making this east-west transit for many years to come as I don't believe the RCN will see a Berlin class coming out of SeaSpan's yard until well into the 2020s even if they start cutting metal in 2018.

RCN’s new supply ship will alternate between east and west coasts | Ottawa Citizen

 

[John Fedup]

The Australian costs include through life running and sustainment costs.
As we have discussed many times in this forum, it's almost impossible to compare each nations procurement costs as we never really know what's in or out.

Yes, the numbers should agree which is why I suspect the article is likely incorrect (hopefully) in the assertion life cycle and sustainment costs are not included. It will be interesting to see if an actual decision is made in early 2018 or if a second tender process occurs. Knowing how this government likes to stretch out defence procurement I suspect we will see a second bid with no decision until after the next election. Thus two major acquisitions post election, fighters and frigates. Sadly, barely a yawn from the electorate.

 

[swerve]

The Australian costs include through life running and sustainment costs.
As we have discussed many times in this forum, it's almost impossible to compare each nations procurement costs as we never really know what's in or out.

I recall this being raised when the F-18Fs were bought. Screams of horror about the 'price', ignoring the fact that it wasn't what was being paid for the aircraft, or even aircraft & support package, but IIRC was total cost of ownership for maybe ten years.

 

[ASSAIL]

I recall this being raised when the F-18Fs were bought. Screams of horror about the 'price', ignoring the fact that it wasn't what was being paid for the aircraft, or even aircraft & support package, but IIRC was total cost of ownership for maybe ten years.

In the RANs case it also included the cost of setting up a shipyard from scratch and recruiting and training a workforce which hadn't built a major warship since the turn of the century.

 

[John Fedup]

The same applies to Canada with regards to shipyards, nothing built since the early nineties. Both SeaSpan and Irving made major investments in their yards. Not sure how much government funding was involved but whatever the amount, it is separate from the actual naval program funding. The Davie yard upgrade was private AFAIK (no federal money, maybe Québec provincial money).

 

[John Fedup]

Although the RCN needs 3 resupply ships, only 2 are currently planned to be built by SeaSpan. The budget for this was 2.3 billion which is now under review. I bet we could 2 Tide class ships for that amount with money to spare! Hopefully 2 new ships get built somehow. The third will likely be Astrix once the lease is over.

National Defence blames 'fiscal restraints' for cutting third navy resupply ship

 

[ASSAIL]

Although the RCN needs 3 resupply ships, only 2 are currently planned to be built by SeaSpan. The budget for this was 2.3 billion which is now under review. I bet we could 2 Tide class ships for that amount with money to spare! Hopefully 2 new ships get built somehow. The third will likely be Astrix once the lease is over.

National Defence blames 'fiscal restraints' for cutting third navy resupply ship

The numbers sure make the RANs deal for the two Cantabrias ($642m) look pretty good.
One would have to assume that Asterix will be retained.

 

[John Fedup]

Some good news for the RCN, Asterix is launched.

New Royal Canadian Navy support ship at sea, sea trials planned | Ottawa Citizen

 

[CJR]

Some good news for the RCN, Asterix is launched.

New Royal Canadian Navy support ship at sea, sea trials planned | Ottawa Citizen

Seems a rather odd choice of name.What next? HMCS Tintin? HMCS Mickey Mouse? HMCS Donald Duck?
:rotfl

 

[oldsig127]

Seems a rather odd choice of name.What next? HMCS Tintin? HMCS Mickey Mouse? HMCS Donald Duck?
:rotfl

Clearly can't be any of them. At last Asterix (the Gaul) fits with the French Canadian vibe. Personally, given the role of the ships the next should be "Getafix"

oldsig

 

[alexsa]

Clearly can't be any of them. At last Asterix (the Gaul) fits with the French Canadian vibe. Personally, given the role of the ships the next should be "Getafix"

oldsig

If it is another rebuild (relifing) of a ship you could consider Geriatrix ........ sorry, the devil made me do it

 

[John Fedup]

That works for me too.

 

[John Fedup]

Hard to believe the world’s leading sub exporter country has a sub fleet almost as troubled as Canada’s.

All of Germany’s submarines are now out of action | Ottawa Citizen

 

[John Fedup]

Another article commenting on Canada's flawed procurement effort regarding the CSC program.

Canada’s warship procurement plan needs a course correction | Ottawa Citizen

 

[kato]

Hard to believe the world’s leading sub exporter country has a sub fleet almost as troubled as Canada’s.

It's not really the sub fleet itself that's troubled, it's the spare parts procurement that's been consistently wound down over the last decade as a cost-saving measure; in fact there has never been a full spare-parts pool to the extent required for normal operations for the Type 212A. Closing the in-house yard for submarines and switching to having it all done commercially five years ago didn't help either.

 

[ngatimozart]

An interesting article about what the RCN should look too for its future CSC. The writer argues that taking the Danish approach potentially could save billions. I do not hold much faith in the Can Govt following this approach because it's to logical.

For smarter shipbuilding, Canada should look to Denmark