Future Fleet
New Member
Let's hope the maiden voyage doesn't cross any dangerous ferry lanes!It will be even more interesting to see how the sea trial progresses.
Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates
- Thread starter stephen weist
- Start date
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Not really, the RCN requirements were fully met by the EH101 (now AH101), 20 years ago.
Future Fleet
New Member
Yes that original contract for the 101s should never have been cancelled. I believe they would have been built in Canadian as well if memory serves.
I meant to highlight that the decision was made to convert a Sikorsky civilian helicopter when they had a naval one already on the shelf ready to go. Of course there is almost always some modifying necessary when going from one navy to another. I don't think the Griffon was modified nearly as much from its original civilian design as the Cyclone has been.
The fluid comment was intended to refer back to the surface combatants.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Not sure about whether there was a plan to build EH101s in Canada. PM Martin was pressured to preserve Chrétien's image so the EH101 was not an option thus allowing the H-92 to be bid. It didn't matter to Liberals that this military version of the S-92 was a paper design. The Sikorsky Sea Hawk was deemed as too small by the RCN as was the NH-90 (and which had its own issues). Even after 20 years, a Merlin would be a good solution for the RCN and would likely be less expensive. At this point we can only hope the Cyclone more less meets specs and can be supported.
walter
Active Member
In the meantime all is going well in the competition for the CSC :daz
OMG;
Deadline for warship designs missing in action | National Newswatch
as one commented on Navy.CA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJKMji2688M
OMG;
Deadline for warship designs missing in action | National Newswatch
as one commented on Navy.CA:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJKMji2688M
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Total cluster $uck is hardly a surprise given our record on defence procurement or rather lack of! Look for a reset and and another Halifax upgrade as no new ships will arrive until mid century.:mad2
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
The problem is political interference and the lack of will to actually spend the money. Too many people and agencies involved in the decision making process. This won't end well if this continues.
I could make a decision in a heart beat. A mix of nine Iver Hutfeld and six Absalon from the Danes. Hull form is derived from Absalon for both. Just start cutting steel.
Everything else on the table requires too much canadianization. The Danish vessels with their open architecture and US weapons systems should allow an easy transition. The benefits of a flex deck have been discussed to death.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The other issue is Canada's demands on IP rights. The vendors feel these demands are improper. I am sure Odense Maritime Technology (designers of the Absalon/Iver Huitfeldt) aren't anxious to hand over IP rights to those idiots in the junior circus.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Another example of our dysfunctional procurement system is the non-progress of a heavy icebreaker for the Canadian coast guard. Meanwhile the National Research Council of Canada is hosting US officials on design research for a new US icebreaker developed by the NRC. This link has zero info about a future Canadian icebreaker. The dip$hits in Ottawa might as well sell off the Canadian Arctic to Denmark or America before Russia moves in.
IN THE NEWS | FrontLine Defence
IN THE NEWS | FrontLine Defence
Pfft, Australia practically owns New Zealand already.. Might as well buy Canada out right too
$5?At least Australia played it smart with the ice breaker, Not having any location, or industry in place to quickly get the ball rolling we built over seas. Will have our's long before Canada or the US and for a lot less spent, Ideally we should have gone halve's with NZ and bought a second one.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Try $2. Foreign sourcing for a new icebreaker is Canada's best option for delivery prior to the icecap disappearing.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Here is some additional information on the IP issue with regards to the CSC tender.
Impasse over intellectual property is tying up warship bids - Politics - CBC News
Impasse over intellectual property is tying up warship bids - Politics - CBC News
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
https://www.navyrecognition.com/ind...m-auxiliary-oiler-replenishment-aor-ship.html
The interim oiler programme seems to be moving a lot faster than most Canadian procurements. If successful, I wonder if it will spark a trend among smaller navies who want a refueling capability but haven't been able to afford a new-build tanker?
The interim oiler programme seems to be moving a lot faster than most Canadian procurements. If successful, I wonder if it will spark a trend among smaller navies who want a refueling capability but haven't been able to afford a new-build tanker?
Joe Black
Active Member
Seriously, how hard can it be, just license build 15 French version of the Fremm Frigates and be done with it.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
It does seem to have progressed quite well but a conversion starts with an already built ship (and quite new). Given the glacial pace of SeaSpan's Berlin class, there may be pollies in Ottawa thinking of repeating this conversion process and having SeaSpan start on an icebreaker. As for smaller navies doing this, probably worth a look if our new ship works out.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Apparently pretty hard due to the way the program was setup. All the bidders have to deal with Irving. From the article,
"Documents obtained by CBC News show one of the 12 companies competing to design and help construct the warships has been blocked from handing over "supporting data and services."
The unidentified bidder says one of Canada's allies, which owns the rights to the sensitive electronics embedded in the warship, is refusing permission to include the information and instead wants direct negotiations with the federal government."
Hard to believe that somebody in government couldn't foresee an objection from a government owning sensitive IP having to share it with a private company as opposed to the Canadian government. Then again, given our government's performance in military procurement, I guess we shouldn't be surprised in this lack of foresight.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The link offers some info on the status of the CSC program. Bids are expected by mid-November with a decision in 2018 but firms may get a second kick at the can if they think they can offer a more compliant bid...WTF!, yet a new way for delaying doing something about RCN recapitalization.
Some other points are made in the article, each ship will cost 4.1 billion and this does not include midlife upgrade, operation or maintenance. This alone, IMHO, is reason enough to seriously question the accuracy of this article or the CSC program itself. Surely the U.K. Isn't planning on paying 4.1 billion CDN for a Type 26? The article further states that each year of delay adds 3 billion to the program cost. That statement alone, if true, is a damn good reason to have everyone involved with this procurement thrown into a deep ocean trench.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/n...m+expected+early+november/14582393/story.html
Some other points are made in the article, each ship will cost 4.1 billion and this does not include midlife upgrade, operation or maintenance. This alone, IMHO, is reason enough to seriously question the accuracy of this article or the CSC program itself. Surely the U.K. Isn't planning on paying 4.1 billion CDN for a Type 26? The article further states that each year of delay adds 3 billion to the program cost. That statement alone, if true, is a damn good reason to have everyone involved with this procurement thrown into a deep ocean trench.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/n...m+expected+early+november/14582393/story.html
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Actually that is pretty much in line with what Australia has budgeted for its new frigates. Australia is looking at $35 billion for 9 frigates and the Australia and Canadian dollar is fairly equal these days.The link offers some info on the status of the CSC program. Bids are expected by mid-November with a decision in 2018 but firms may get a second kick at the can if they think they can offer a more compliant bid...WTF!, yet a new way for delaying doing something about RCN recapitalization.
Some other points are made in the article, each ship will cost 4.1 billion and this does not include midlife upgrade, operation or maintenance. This alone, IMHO, is reason enough to seriously question the accuracy of this article or the CSC program itself. Surely the U.K. Isn't planning on paying 4.1 billion CDN for a Type 26? The article further states that each year of delay adds 3 billion to the program cost. That statement alone, if true, is a damn good reason to have everyone involved with this procurement thrown into a deep ocean trench.
Bids for Canada’s $62-billion warship program expected in by early November — with a chance for a do-over
The UK is paying around £3.7 billion ($6 billion) for 3 type 26. That is about half the price but I am not sure what that includes.
I am told that they will be recycling a lot of the equipment from the type 23 so that would keep the costs down.
Apparently pretty hard due to the way the program was setup. All the bidders have to deal with Irving. From the article,
"Documents obtained by CBC News show one of the 12 companies competing to design and help construct the warships has been blocked from handing over "supporting data and services."
The unidentified bidder says one of Canada's allies, which owns the rights to the sensitive electronics embedded in the warship, is refusing permission to include the information and instead wants direct negotiations with the federal government."
Hard to believe that somebody in government couldn't foresee an objection from a government owning sensitive IP having to share it with a private company as opposed to the Canadian government. Then again, given our government's performance in military procurement, I guess we shouldn't be surprised in this lack of foresight.
The issue is IPR belongs to an Original Equipment Manufacturer, not necessarily the shipbuilder who is bidding for the work, and offering equipment X, Y & Z from 3rd party vendors.
Knowing some of the equipment, ITAR rules will no doubt come into play with any equipment that originates in the US of A.
I can foresee more problems with that, than the IPR...
SA
Novascotiaboy
Active Member
With the RN announcing preliminary info about the Type 31 maybe it's time the RCN recognizes the reality of the global security situation and considers a two tier build.
Do all of the new surface combatants need to have the high end sensors and armament or can we get along with a little less? My thought is yes we can. A fleet of six Iver Hutfeld, six Absalon and six Type 31. The twelve Danish hulls are similar in design allowing for economic scale. The six Type 31 could be built by someone other than Irving to allow concurrent builds. The Type 31 could fulfill the same missions for the RCN as the RN plans; home water defence., the Caribbean and the Med. The T31 would offer many opportunities of showing the flag while retaining the higher end hulls for higher threats.
The discussions have already been had on the advantages of a flex deck as per the Absalon style vessels. The ability to move outsize cargo quickly by see in times of HADR operations would be beneficial. A look at events ongoing in this years hurricane season are all that's needed to justify this type of purchase IMHO.
If the UK can build a general purpose frigate for $500 million I am sure we can.
Like the Brits we ran a series of ships that provided yeoman service for decades. Most of our Cold War fleet were 3000 ton ships with big choppers and a self protection armament. T31 may fill some of our boxes at a manageable price.
Do all of the new surface combatants need to have the high end sensors and armament or can we get along with a little less? My thought is yes we can. A fleet of six Iver Hutfeld, six Absalon and six Type 31. The twelve Danish hulls are similar in design allowing for economic scale. The six Type 31 could be built by someone other than Irving to allow concurrent builds. The Type 31 could fulfill the same missions for the RCN as the RN plans; home water defence., the Caribbean and the Med. The T31 would offer many opportunities of showing the flag while retaining the higher end hulls for higher threats.
The discussions have already been had on the advantages of a flex deck as per the Absalon style vessels. The ability to move outsize cargo quickly by see in times of HADR operations would be beneficial. A look at events ongoing in this years hurricane season are all that's needed to justify this type of purchase IMHO.
If the UK can build a general purpose frigate for $500 million I am sure we can.
Like the Brits we ran a series of ships that provided yeoman service for decades. Most of our Cold War fleet were 3000 ton ships with big choppers and a self protection armament. T31 may fill some of our boxes at a manageable price.