John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Ok, good to know. Hopefully the Type 26 gets some consideration by the CSC team.
Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates
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John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The sad Cyclone story drags on. A real shame that the Martin government felt it necessary to protect Chrétien's reputation by purchasing a paper helicopter instead of AW101s back in 2004.
Cyclone helicopter destined for Canadian Forces damaged during testing | Ottawa Citizen
Cyclone helicopter destined for Canadian Forces damaged during testing | Ottawa Citizen
This has probably been asked before, but why didn't they just acquire a MOTS helo that was already in service?The sad Cyclone story drags on. A real shame that the Martin government felt it necessary to protect Chrétien's reputation by purchasing a paper helicopter instead of AW101s back in 2004.
Cyclone helicopter destined for Canadian Forces damaged during testing | Ottawa Citizen
They're saying that it's been defined more rigorously than the published information suggests?
Why did they cancel the original order for the EH101, when they could have had a very good helicopter in service many years ago & not had to pay a huge cancellation fee?
Politics, dear boy, politics. When I'm particularly miserable about British military procurement I think of India - or Canada.
maybe its desperate enthusiasm - but yes
I know and I feel the same when I look at Kiwi military procurementWhy did they cancel the original order for the EH101, when they could have had a very good helicopter in service many years ago & not had to pay a huge cancellation fee?
Politics, dear boy, politics. When I'm particularly miserable about British military procurement I think of India - or Canada.
Just the geographer and scientist in me sometimes can't help but look for a logical rational explanation. In the case of Canadian and Indian military procurement that might be somewhat difficult :lol3 Could be a good psychology PH.D for someone. nfloorl:Well, that's good, if they're right. I hope that (1) they are right, & (2) what's been defined is reasonable, not some slightly souped-up OPV.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Just another pollie horror show. Back in 1991 the Mulroney government ordered 50 EH101s, some configured for SAR and the rest for the RCN. Chretien (the $hit from Shawinigan) cancelled this order and paid a 500 million cancellation fee to AW. In 1997 the Sea Kings were not capable of reliable SAR performance (they weren't much better for RCN operations either) and 15 new EH101s were purchased as the NH-90 wasn't ready and the H-92 (CH-148 Cyclone didn't even exist on paper yet). This was a major embarrassment for Chretien. After he was replaced by Paul Martin(another Liberal) in 2004, Martin ordered 28 Cyclones (now existed on paper but that was all) in order to save face for Chretien. The Liberal party likely forced Martin to do this as Martin despised Chretien. Now here we are at 2016 with less than 1/4 of the order shipped and still not meetings specifications.:flaming
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CdnDefWriter
New Member
11 March - NationalNewswatch
Libs reject Davie unsolicited bid to build coast guard icebreakers
OTTAWA — Procurement Minister Judy Foote has rejected a set of unsolicited bids from Davie Shipyard to build or re-purpose a fleet of icebreakers and support ships for the Canadian Coast Guard.
A draft statement from the department dated Friday, which was not released publicly but a copy of which was obtained by The Canadian Press, acknowledged receipt of the proposals, worth a combined total of roughly $1.7 billion. However it said the federal government has "opted not to respond."
It also said the new Liberal government is fully committed to the National Shipbuilding Strategy, which sees Vancouver-based Seaspan shipyards and Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax as the go-to yards for federal contracts.
The draft statement is the clearest response from the department since The Canadian Press first reported earlier this week that the bids, which claim up to $1.5 billion in economic spin-offs, had gone to Foote's office.
The government issued a brief statement late Friday saying it does not comment on or respond to unsolicited proposals.
Up until this point, the government would only say that it had not issued a request for proposals and that it remained behind the shipbuilding program, which has been under increased scrutiny.
The absence of a firm public rejection — or acceptance — has only stoked the fires of uncertainty among the defence industry and the affected provinces.
The bids by Levis, Que.-based Davie had the potential to undermine Seaspan, which is gearing up to build many of the vessels offered in the unsolicited bids.
Earlier in the week, Alex Vicefield, CEO of Davie's parent company, said the pitches had been "very well received,'' but would not go into detail.
The company claimed it could deliver the icebreakers — for purchase or lease — at a fraction of the cost and years ahead of the ships Seaspan is planning to build.
The Davie proposals were kicked into the political realm when B.C.'s job minister, Shirley Bond, was quoted by CKNW Radio as saying it’s an unacceptable situation. She called on the Liberal government to live up to its promises. In a tweet Friday, Premier Christy Clark praised the federal move to stay the course calling it "a strong decision by the federal government to stand up for Seaspan and BC."
The remarks came one day after Nova Scotia's premier demanded Ottawa ensure its multibillion-dollar shipbuilding commitments to his province were honoured.
Looks like Libs shut this idea down quite quick.
It's too bad it wasn't packaged by Davie as a 'pick n choose' option.
A few useful vessels, at lower cost from suitable repurposed partly constructed hulls - and suitably ice-strengthened, as I noted previously, could have been quite useful as supplements to planned NSPS construction. Especially if they had a partly constructed icebreaker on hand.
Tho I was not amenable with the part of the proposal to aquire commercial ships from abroad as that does nothing to contribute to the Canadian Industrial base (design, resources, ship construction, etc.). Unless it's a specially designed Ro-Ro like the 2 ex-UK Point-class (with decks specifically reinforced to take heavy Military tracked vehicles like MBTs) that were sold off (Beachy Head & Longstone), that can be acquired for RFA like operation to haul DND vehicles/equipment, it's just a low-cost (for Davie) slush project like John noted.
Libs reject Davie unsolicited bid to build coast guard icebreakers
OTTAWA — Procurement Minister Judy Foote has rejected a set of unsolicited bids from Davie Shipyard to build or re-purpose a fleet of icebreakers and support ships for the Canadian Coast Guard.
A draft statement from the department dated Friday, which was not released publicly but a copy of which was obtained by The Canadian Press, acknowledged receipt of the proposals, worth a combined total of roughly $1.7 billion. However it said the federal government has "opted not to respond."
It also said the new Liberal government is fully committed to the National Shipbuilding Strategy, which sees Vancouver-based Seaspan shipyards and Irving Shipbuilding in Halifax as the go-to yards for federal contracts.
The draft statement is the clearest response from the department since The Canadian Press first reported earlier this week that the bids, which claim up to $1.5 billion in economic spin-offs, had gone to Foote's office.
The government issued a brief statement late Friday saying it does not comment on or respond to unsolicited proposals.
Up until this point, the government would only say that it had not issued a request for proposals and that it remained behind the shipbuilding program, which has been under increased scrutiny.
The absence of a firm public rejection — or acceptance — has only stoked the fires of uncertainty among the defence industry and the affected provinces.
The bids by Levis, Que.-based Davie had the potential to undermine Seaspan, which is gearing up to build many of the vessels offered in the unsolicited bids.
Earlier in the week, Alex Vicefield, CEO of Davie's parent company, said the pitches had been "very well received,'' but would not go into detail.
The company claimed it could deliver the icebreakers — for purchase or lease — at a fraction of the cost and years ahead of the ships Seaspan is planning to build.
The Davie proposals were kicked into the political realm when B.C.'s job minister, Shirley Bond, was quoted by CKNW Radio as saying it’s an unacceptable situation. She called on the Liberal government to live up to its promises. In a tweet Friday, Premier Christy Clark praised the federal move to stay the course calling it "a strong decision by the federal government to stand up for Seaspan and BC."
The remarks came one day after Nova Scotia's premier demanded Ottawa ensure its multibillion-dollar shipbuilding commitments to his province were honoured.
Looks like Libs shut this idea down quite quick.
It's too bad it wasn't packaged by Davie as a 'pick n choose' option.
A few useful vessels, at lower cost from suitable repurposed partly constructed hulls - and suitably ice-strengthened, as I noted previously, could have been quite useful as supplements to planned NSPS construction. Especially if they had a partly constructed icebreaker on hand.
Tho I was not amenable with the part of the proposal to aquire commercial ships from abroad as that does nothing to contribute to the Canadian Industrial base (design, resources, ship construction, etc.). Unless it's a specially designed Ro-Ro like the 2 ex-UK Point-class (with decks specifically reinforced to take heavy Military tracked vehicles like MBTs) that were sold off (Beachy Head & Longstone), that can be acquired for RFA like operation to haul DND vehicles/equipment, it's just a low-cost (for Davie) slush project like John noted.
thats ridiculous, the bid should be tested on its merits.
it shouldn't be a party political procedural issue
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Of course it is political.
The whole point of the National ship building program was to assign two ship yards to build future ships for the RCN. Davie was bankrupt when SeaSpan and Irving were designated as the two yards (SeaSpan for non-combat, Irving for combat).
The long delayed JSS project was canned in favour building two Berlin class replenishment ships. The government ordered coast guard ships from SeaSpan and shortly thereafter the RCN lost both its replenishment ships thus creating an opportunity for Davie to weasel back in. So now we have a Quebec company demanding work by taking away SeaSpan's share while at the same time Quebec's number one corporate welfare bum (Bombardier) is demanding a billion dollars to bail out the C-Series jet. BC will go absolutely ape$hit if SeaSpan loses any work to Quebec. Junior is between a rock and a hard place on this one, the guy who wants to exclude the F-35 so he can rebuild the RCN! What a dick.:ar15
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According to Janes, the Canadian govt is investing CA$65 million into the Vancouver Shipyards company, owned by the Seaspan Group, under the National Shipbuilding Strategy (NSS). This yard is the one that will be building the RCN JSS.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
SeaSpan will build the Berlins (JSS design selection). The problem is they are currently finishing off a coast guard ship first. The Berlins come afterwards. There is also the urgent need for a heavy icebreaker replacement. This is why at least one of the Berlins should be built overseas IMO.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The attached link references the current estimate for 15 CSC ships. The price is now estimated at 40 billion Cdn (~30B US) which works out to 2B US per ship. It will be interesting to see Australian numbers for their replacement frigates. It is further estimated that 30 life cycle costs could reach over 60B Cdn (~48B US). At this pricing level, a 15 ship build is unlikely.
Junior's first budget is tomorrow so it will be interesting to see what DND cost estimates were actually sent to his finance minister to put into the budget.
Navy frigate price tag heading 'north of $40 billion' | The Chronicle Herald
Junior's first budget is tomorrow so it will be interesting to see what DND cost estimates were actually sent to his finance minister to put into the budget.
Navy frigate price tag heading 'north of $40 billion' | The Chronicle Herald
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
The Toronto Star (Canada largest newspaper) had the following article on the forthcoming budget tomorrow. Zero mention on anything defence related. Can't really blame the paper on this as most of their readers don't care.
Big spending, big deficit, big hopes in first Liberal budget: Tim Harper | Toronto Star
Big spending, big deficit, big hopes in first Liberal budget: Tim Harper | Toronto Star
The numbers are somewhat eye watering in a way. I just have difficulty understanding how Canada manages to make platform acquisition so expensive. Even the Indians aren't as inventive. A similar platform in the RN, RAN or RNZN would be almost half the cost. The article does raise some interesting points though around crewing and expectations. Although it says the RCN are the drivers for these, is this actually the case? Ì do agree that an already existing design should be acquired and built with minimum Canadianisation so as to reduce costs and that automation should be used where possible.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
To be fair, I think the RCN tends to go over the top somewhat which is part of the procurement problem. As to the projected build cost of 2B US per ship, I believe this is the ballpark figure for a UK built Type 26 and I don't think a Fremm would be much less. Irving will be building the AOPS vessels first. If they run into serious cost over-runs on thes ships, it may give the government the political cover to have more of the frigate program outsourced overseas. As for life cycle costs, I think the numbers mentioned are on the high side.
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
Here's a link describing some of the vendors who will be at CANSEC this May. They will be promoting their products for the NSPS with an emphasis on the CSC program.
CANSEC '16: NAVAL TECHNOLOGY ON DISPLAY — espritdecorps
CANSEC '16: NAVAL TECHNOLOGY ON DISPLAY — espritdecorps
and now the chinese.....
China eyes Canada's Northwest Passage as fast shipping route via Arctic - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
one wonders whether they will regard it as canadian or russian when they seek to drive a military vessel through the NW Passage - they have to get permission from someone if they do
China eyes Canada's Northwest Passage as fast shipping route via Arctic - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
one wonders whether they will regard it as canadian or russian when they seek to drive a military vessel through the NW Passage - they have to get permission from someone if they do