Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[John Fedup]

Have they already bought the hull/s for this, RAN better be carefull same thing might happen to us as our replacement project seems to be at a standstill.

Davie has bought a ship for conversion. Had the new government cancelled this interim solution then Davie would have received a 89 million payout. SeaSpan has a contract to build two Berlin class AORs. Metal has yet to be cut though. Junior is piling up debt despite being in office for only two months. I am sure the RCN brass are worried that the interim solution may become the final solution. If serious cost overruns occur with the first SeaSpan Berlin AOR it will likely be the only one built.

 

[alexsa]

Have they already bought the hull/s for this, RAN better be carefull same thing might happen to us as our replacement project seems to be at a standstill.

Really, why do you say that and what evidence is there that the RAN would even remotely consider the idea of a conversion. This is pure nonsense.

The conversion provides a hull quickly but as a container ship hull is being used (I expect this is for speed and interaction when fueling other ships) this is a complex, costly and risky option. I understand why Canada have gone down this path as they have no AOR at this point in time.

Building a three AOR in Korea to a design that is being built on cost and quickly presents less risk. If this is done soon then the first of class should be in service before the existingt units become completely untenable.

If you are suggesting an Australian yard will conduct a similar build as the conversions of MV Astrtix can you tell me which yard you would use noting we have no syncrolift capable of lifting such a vessel at this point in time and limited operation dry docks ....... Even if you were to reactivate Cainscross in Brisbane (which would very good strategically and hopefully will happen one day of the Customs Act limitations art changed to allow ships to be repaired without being imported) you would have to build all the infrastructure to support it. This will take years.

So I repeat ....... the notion is nonsense.

 

[t68]

Really, why do you say that and what evidence is there that the RAN would even remotely consider the idea of a conversion. This is pure nonsense.

The conversion provides a hull quickly but as a container ship hull is being used (I expect this is for speed and interaction when fueling other ships) this is a complex, costly and risky option. I understand why Canada have gone down this path as they have no AOR at this point in time.

Building a three AOR in Korea to a design that is being built on cost and quickly presents less risk. If this is done soon then the first of class should be in service before the existingt units become completely untenable.

If you are suggesting an Australian yard will conduct a similar build as the conversions of MV Astrtix can you tell me which yard you would use noting we have no syncrolift capable of lifting such a vessel at this point in time and limited operation dry docks ....... Even if you were to reactivate Cainscross in Brisbane (which would very good strategically and hopefully will happen one day of the Customs Act limitations art changed to allow ships to be repaired without being imported) you would have to build all the infrastructure to support it. This will take years.

So I repeat ....... the notion is nonsense.

Might I suggest that sarcasm dose not translate very well via the written word, it was in reference to the powers to be appearing to put the project on the back burner as it seems things have cooled down on it from the day of Rudd/ Gillard making it a priority for shipbuilding to save face on their inability to order ships in a timely manner. For which OldSig gave up to date infomation on the project.

 

[StingrayOZ]

The conversion provides a hull quickly but as a container ship hull is being used (I expect this is for speed and interaction when fueling other ships) this is a complex, costly and risky option.

I would have thought a tanker would have been easier, cheaper and quicker. I thought that the main reason they chose a container ship was for the sea lift capability they were after.

 

[Cadredave]

I would have thought a tanker would have been easier, cheaper and quicker. I thought that the main reason they chose a container ship was for the sea lift capability they were after.

Here are the proposed plans for the rebuild from it you will see it is far from a simple conversion, from my untrained eyes even I can see this project is going to be costly and if not done right as Alexa stated will cost more than the new builds.

Project Resolve | Downloads

CD

 

[KiwiRob]

Project Resolve | Downloads

CD

It's basically a complete newbuild using an existing hull and propulsion unit, I can't see there being much cost savings in doing it like this.

 

[Cadredave]

It's basically a complete newbuild using an existing hull and propulsion unit, I can't see there being much cost savings in doing it like this.

Explains why the price is so high for a conversion project...if not done right this could end up very badly for the RCN I do hope it doesn't but I have never seen a conversion go smoothly any where.

CD

 

[John Fedup]

It's basically a complete newbuild using an existing hull and propulsion unit, I can't see there being much cost savings in doing it like this.

I think this decision was based on speed due to need. Another factor could be embarrassment in allowing this situation to happen. If the Berlin and this project were to start at the same time I wonder which would go to sea first.

 

[t68]

I think this decision was based on speed due to need. Another factor could be embarrassment in allowing this situation to happen. If the Berlin and this project were to start at the same time I wonder which would go to sea first.

I think you would find the Berlin unless you are doing major changes, the conversion is deleving into the unknown, and hope you dont find extra problems once you get into the nitty gritty. Hopefully you won't have a Bill & Ben saga

It does make me wonder if it would have been cheaper and quicker if the Germans built one in their own yards

 

[John Fedup]

I think you would find the Berlin unless you are doing major changes, the conversion is deleving into the unknown, and hope you dont find extra problems once you get into the nitty gritty. Hopefully you won't have a Bill & Ben saga

It does make me wonder if it would have been cheaper and quicker if the Germans built one in their own yards

A build in Germany would be faster and maybe even less expensive IMO but politically difficult. I can understand combatant ships being built locally for political reasons but AORs, no. The money saved with foreign construction could be applied back to the combatant ship program.

 

[John Fedup]

Now that the real cost for 15 new surface combatant ships is $30 billion, the Canadian government today announced an outside expert will called in. Here's what the expert will report, one, if you screw around inflation will kill you, two, a state of the art frigate costs close to 2 billion (about the same as a type 26 including all the R&D design etc.), and three, if you want lower cost it only comes from less capability or fewer ships. I wonder what the expert fee will cost us?

 

[StobieWan]

A build in Germany would be faster and maybe even less expensive IMO but politically difficult. I can understand combatant ships being built locally for political reasons but AORs, no. The money saved with foreign construction could be applied back to the combatant ship program.

Pretty much- I think we hit the nail on the head with the UK Korean built, UK fitout options. It's a good way to get some local content and spend but avoids paying more for a tanker than some countries spend on frigates.

 

[John Fedup]

Pretty much- I think we hit the nail on the head with the UK Korean built, UK fitout options. It's a good way to get some local content and spend but avoids paying more for a tanker than some countries spend on frigates.

Absolutely, the U.K. Tide class being built in SK is an awesome deal and the delivery times are impressive.

 

[ASSAIL]

Now that the real cost for 15 new surface combatant ships is $30 billion, the Canadian government today announced an outside expert will called in. Here's what the expert will report, one, if you screw around inflation will kill you, two, a state of the art frigate costs close to 2 billion (about the same as a type 26 including all the R&D design etc.), and three, if you want lower cost it only comes from less capability or fewer ships. I wonder what the expert fee will cost us?

Well your Junior pledged $2billion to the climate change fund so there's 2 bigs you don't have anymore!

 

[John Fedup]

Well your Junior pledged $2billion to the climate change fund so there's 2 bigs you don't have anymore!

and other 1.2 to 2.4 billion for Syrian refugees, the list keeps on going up at the same rate as our deficit (who would have thought, clearly not junior and his fellow Liberals).

 

[vonnoobie]

Lets be realistic, A $2 billion climate fund and $1.2 - $2.4 billion for Syrian refugees (Actually estimated at less then $700m for 6 years) are not what is causing the issues so we shouldn't be over dramatizing them. When you do that you don't locate and solve the actual problem thus it continues to persist.

Take Australia for example, With a smaller economy and a smaller tax intake in proportion to our GDP (Canada 32%+ - Australia 26%-) we are spending $10 billion on a climate fund along with $700m over four years for the Syrian refugees resettled in Australia yet we still have a larger military budget then Canada.

Attacking two particular topics is quite simply silly, If you want to bring budgetary issues into it and where our taxes are going then talk about it in full, Don't simplify it to attack limited expenditures that you don't like.

 

[John Fedup]

Lets be realistic, A $2 billion climate fund and $1.2 - $2.4 billion for Syrian refugees (Actually estimated at less then $700m for 6 years) are not what is causing the issues so we shouldn't be over dramatizing them. When you do that you don't locate and solve the actual problem thus it continues to persist.

Take Australia for example, With a smaller economy and a smaller tax intake in proportion to our GDP (Canada 32%+ - Australia 26%-) we are spending $10 billion on a climate fund along with $700m over four years for the Syrian refugees resettled in Australia yet we still have a larger military budget then Canada.

Attacking two particular topics is quite simply silly, If you want to bring budgetary issues into it and where our taxes are going then talk about it in full, Don't simplify it to attack limited expenditures that you don't like.

To talk about the full budgetary issues in Canada (including some provinces that are worse than our federal government) would take too much time and effort not to mention boring everyone. My examples are only to indicate the direction junior is going. The estimated refugee cost is being projected at 1.2 billion (not 700m)assuming 25,000 actually come. There was one report stating this number could rise to 50,000 by the end of 2016 but I can't see this happening. Australian GDP is somewhat less than Canada's but your population is one third less so your productivity is better.

 

[vonnoobie]

To talk about the full budgetary issues in Canada (including some provinces that are worse than our federal government) would take too much time and effort not to mention boring everyone. My examples are only to indicate the direction junior is going. The estimated refugee cost is being projected at 1.2 billion (not 700m)assuming 25,000 actually come. There was one report stating this number could rise to 50,000 by the end of 2016 but I can't see this happening. Australian GDP is somewhat less than Canada's but your population is one third less so your productivity is better.

I don't actually see the direction so far as being bad, At least not on the face of it.. How they are implemented though will matter (ie: The $10 billion climate fund in Australia is set up to be for profit, And so far are making around 7% returns which is considered bloody amazing considering how new it is).

I have done quick google checks and news searches and could only come up with figures of

- 25,000 Syrian and Iraqi refugees by Junior at under $700m
- 10,000 by years end and 9,000 a year for the following four years by Tom Malcair (Not costed)
- 50,000 by years end by former chief of defence staff Rick Hillier.

Can not find a single costing higher then this, If you know of a credible source I appreciate it if you shared it, I am curious about world affairs and how various nations handle similar issues.

In regards to productivity, If based purely off of GDP per a capita then we are 17.5% better then Canada but this figure gets distorted when you look at the cost of living on both nations.

 

[John Fedup]

I don't actually see the direction so far as being bad, At least not on the face of it.. How they are implemented though will matter (ie: The $10 billion climate fund in Australia is set up to be for profit, And so far are making around 7% returns which is considered bloody amazing considering how new it is).

I have done quick google checks and news searches and could only come up with figures of

- 25,000 Syrian and Iraqi refugees by Junior at under $700m
- 10,000 by years end and 9,000 a year for the following four years by Tom Malcair (Not costed)
- 50,000 by years end by former chief of defence staff Rick Hillier.

Can not find a single costing higher then this, If you know of a credible source I appreciate it if you shared it, I am curious about world affairs and how various nations handle similar issues.

In regards to productivity, If based purely off of GDP per a capita then we are 17.5% better then Canada but this figure gets distorted when you look at the cost of living on both nations.

The 1.2 billion for 25,000 comes from a Toronto Start article (big time junior supporter). For additional government stupidity by one of our province's, google Ontario auditor report and see how well their green energy program is working.

Cost of Syrian refugee plan pegged at $1.2B over six years | Toronto Star

These costs do not include post arrival healthcare as healthcare is the responsibility of provincial governments which in large part explains why publically the province of BC and Saskatchewan are opposed (no doubt others are as well but prefer to make their views in private).

My niece was on a work contract to Sydney and remarked somethings seemed more expensive in Oz (with the money she makes I'm surprised she noticed). The average price for a detached house in Toronto about 800k CDN, downtown condos (300-500k for one bedroom). The Vancouver market is totally anal with the average home now well over a million (even tear-downs on small lots are over a million). Anyways getting back on topic, our frigates are going to be frigging expensive and I don't know where the money is going to come from.

 

[StobieWan]

Guys : polite moderator notice here, we're off into the wibbly world of social policy spending which is not the primary remit of the board.

Might be time to move closer to the core topic of the thread, TIA..