Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

[John Fedup]

I wonder will Davie be building the same thing?

Can’t really see any merit in a different design unless Davie is building more than one heavy. Not really impressed with a two ship order with one to Davie and one to SeaSpan but given the need and political considerations not much leeway. The only other option that would solve the political issue would be Davie getting both icebreakers and having SeaSpan build a couple of licensed LHDs once the second Berlin is completed. Don’t think junior’s government would fund LHDs, even given their HADR capability.

 

[ngatimozart]

Can’t really see any merit in a different design unless Davie is building more than one heavy. Not really impressed with a two ship order with one to Davie and one to SeaSpan but given the need and political considerations not much leeway. The only other option that would solve the political issue would be Davie getting both icebreakers and having SeaSpan build a couple of licensed LHDs once the second Berlin is completed. Don’t think junior’s government would fund LHDs, even given their HADR capability.

That's something that I have trouble understanding. Why hasn't Canada devoted resources to some sort of amphib capability? Is it against their religion or something?

 

[John Fedup]

That's something that I have trouble understanding. Why hasn't Canada devoted resources to some sort of amphib capability? Is it against their religion or something?

The Liberal party (and likely the Conservative party) have no interest in amphibious capability as they won’t ever commit to a overseas operation short of an all out world conflict. Even the HADR capability couldn’t win them over because of cost. A West coast 8 or 9 earthquake will show them why it is a worthy investment albeit too late.

 

[Git_Kraken]

That's something that I have trouble understanding. Why hasn't Canada devoted resources to some sort of amphib capability? Is it against their religion or something?

Few reasons as far as I can tell:

1) The Army doesn't care.

Which means the CDS never advocates to the Defence Minister and thus cabinet that it's important. The Army has always gotten to the theatre they need to whenever they have needed to without too much fuss. The heavy-lift air capability came because the army wanted it and couldn't properly supply Afghanistan. They were pretty agnostic about naval lift, leaving the RCN as the only advocate. And if the Army really didn't want it then why would the Navy dedicate any effort or money into getting it.

2) The army only deploys with allies not independently.

Any foreign geopolitical interest by Canada is also generally also a US interest. If it's not a US interest it's likely also a UK one, or a NATO one. Which means we stage with or through allies almost exclusively. Aside from domestic operations has never had to take independent military action.

3) Other more pressing priorities.

Drawing on the first point, the RCN list of capability gaps includes Fleet Replenishment and AAD. Those are much higher political and military priorities.

4) No existential geopolitical threat that would require an amphib capability.

There is no driving need for a large amphib capability from a geopolitical location perspective. The nearest foreign threat is Russia, across the other side of Alaska or the arctic and a very frozen ocean. The first mission Canada would do if the Russians invaded the Canadian Arctic would be a search and rescue. Small unit (platoon level) amphib capability is provided by the AOPS and the JSS.

Canada has limited foreign entanglements, any foreign engagement we take is a choice, not an existential threat. Any existential threats to Canada that are not US based are also existential threats to the United States.

During Gen Hilliers tenure (2005-8) there was research into developing an Amphib capability. It would have required approx 10 years of dedicated effort. Instead Canada decided to focus on the creation and training of CSOR an air deployable SOF regiment, which has seen far more action than any Naval Infantry would have in the intervening time (Marine is french for Navy so any Canadian "Marines" would be called Naval Infantry).

Conclusion: Amphib is a nice to have not a need to have for Canada. IMHO there is a list of about 20 things that we should focus on before spending resources on an amphib capability. AORs, AAD, Frigate replacement, improved MCM, more MPA's, increased # of helicopters, Sub replacement, and when that's all done a helicopter carrier of some sort would be a better investment than amphib being more flexible for task group operations (ASW/AEW/ UXV's). And that's just the Navy equipment. The army needs ATGM, attack/scout helicopters and mechanized artillery amoung other things. Airforce needs more replacement fighters, two more C-17 or equivalent, new air refueling capability, the DEW line needs replacing...

 

[Git_Kraken]

The Liberal party (and likely the Conservative party) have no interest in amphibious capability as they won’t ever commit to a overseas operation short of an all out world conflict. Even the HADR capability couldn’t win them over because of cost. A West coast 8 or 9 earthquake will show them why it is a worthy investment albeit too late.

A West Coat Earthquake of the magnitude near Esquimalt would destroy any naval capability in the harbor. If it didn't damage/destroy the ships the people on the base would be busy pulling themselves and their neighbors out of flattened or flooded Victoria. I used to work in Base Operations for earthquake exercises. Magnitude 7.5+ would destroy any older buildings on the base and we trained people to rescue their co-workers.

Help for the West Coast would have to come over the mountains or from further north. Thank god we modernized the airforce heavy lift with the new Hercs, C17's, and Chinooks.

 

[HaroldBloggins]

I see there is talk to a Kingston Class replacement project standing up in the next 5 years.

 

[Redlands18]

A West Coat Earthquake of the magnitude near Esquimalt would destroy any naval capability in the harbor. If it didn't damage/destroy the ships the people on the base would be busy pulling themselves and their neighbors out of flattened or flooded Victoria. I used to work in Base Operations for earthquake exercises. Magnitude 7.5+ would destroy any older buildings on the base and we trained people to rescue their co-workers.

Help for the West Coast would have to come over the mountains or from further north. Thank god we modernized the airforce heavy lift with the new Hercs, C17's, and Chinooks.

Though Washington might grumble about Canada not having enough resources of their own, I would be pretty sure there would be immediate aid coming from the South as well, the C-5s and USAF C-17s would not be far behind the RCN C-17s.

 

[Git_Kraken]

I see there is talk to a Kingston Class replacement project standing up in the next 5 years.

I'm thinking the AOPS has changed the game for a Kingston class replacement quite a bit. That and payload UXV MCM technology. It will be interesting to see what they come up with for the requirements. Is dynamic station keeping important anymore? Boats, launch ramps, 20' ISO container packages etc...

I'm expecting 25knots top speed and armament similar to the AOPS. River Class Batch II would be a great OPV type, but I'm not sure how well it could be converted to MCM. Unless they are planning to use AOPS as a mothership for MCM remote vehicles. It has the cranes and the space capacity to do that sort of work, both for extra crew, operations staff and equipment.

 

[HaroldBloggins]

I'm thinking the AOPS has changed the game for a Kingston class replacement quite a bit. That and payload UXV MCM technology. It will be interesting to see what they come up with for the requirements. Is dynamic station keeping important anymore? Boats, launch ramps, 20' ISO container packages etc...

I'm expecting 25knots top speed and armament similar to the AOPS. River Class Batch II would be a great OPV type, but I'm not sure how well it could be converted to MCM. Unless they are planning to use AOPS as a mothership for MCM remote vehicles. It has the cranes and the space capacity to do that sort of work, both for extra crew, operations staff and equipment.

The Kingston Class has reached the design life of 25 years for the first of Class HMCS Kingston. ABS (American Bureau of Shipping) was asked to conduct a survey of the ships and determine maintenance costs moving forward. It was determined that the ships are in excellent condition and could go another 15 years. All Kingston Class was subsequently extended by 15 years in 5 year increments. The Kingston class maintenance costs are a mere pittance compared to the Halifax Class or Harry DeWolf Class.

Ottawa has already done a concept of a Kingston Class replacement. They took the original requirements and added among other things a 25 knot speed, full size RHIB etc. While AOPS is expected to be a mother ship for the Kingston Class on deployment and that's something I have personally been involved with determining what they can provide, they still lack degaussing which is important for a MCM ship. Acting as a mothership in the NW passage for AUV's for ASW absolutely.

More than likely the Kingston Class will go to the end of15 years in some form or another and stand up a proper replacement project in 5 years and more than likely over 10 years select and replace the ships probably build by an inland yard such as Heddle. Any replacement should be cheap to build with off the shelf equipment, radars etc. We basically need a pickup truck.

 

[John Fedup]

The Kingston Class has reached the design life of 25 years for the first of Class HMCS Kingston. ABS (American Bureau of Shipping) was asked to conduct a survey of the ships and determine maintenance costs moving forward. It was determined that the ships are in excellent condition and could go another 15 years. All Kingston Class was subsequently extended by 15 years in 5 year increments. The Kingston class maintenance costs are a mere pittance compared to the Halifax Class or Harry DeWolf Class.

Ottawa has already done a concept of a Kingston Class replacement. They took the original requirements and added among other things a 25 knot speed, full size RHIB etc. While AOPS is expected to be a mother ship for the Kingston Class on deployment and that's something I have personally been involved with determining what they can provide, they still lack degaussing which is important for a MCM ship. Acting as a mothership in the NW passage for AUV's for ASW absolutely.

More than likely the Kingston Class will go to the end of15 years in some form or another and stand up a proper replacement project in 5 years and more than likely over 10 years select and replace the ships probably build by an inland yard such as Heddle. Any replacement should be cheap to build with off the shelf equipment, radars etc. We basically need a pickup truck.

It really is time that an Ontario yard got some work considering Ontario’s contribution to the Federal government’s coffers.

 

[Git_Kraken]

It really is time that an Ontario yard got some work considering Ontario’s contribution to the Federal government’s coffers.

Ottawa is in Ontario . I think Ontario is doing quite OK when it comes to federal money spent there. I don't think building another yard from the ground up to make a short run of ships is the best idea, but if the coastal yards are busy I suppose that's not the end of the world.

Ottawa has already done a concept of a Kingston Class replacement. They took the original requirements and added among other things a 25 knot speed, full size RHIB etc. While AOPS is expected to be a mother ship for the Kingston Class on deployment and that's something I have personally been involved with determining what they can provide, they still lack degaussing which is important for a MCM ship. Acting as a mothership in the NW passage for AUV's for ASW absolutely.

So non-combatant task group concept? That's an interesting way to look at it.

 

[John Fedup]

Ottawa is in Ontario . I think Ontario is doing quite OK when it comes to federal money spent there. I don't think building another yard from the ground up to make a short run of ships is the best idea, but if the coastal yards are busy I suppose that's not the end of the world.


So non-combatant task group concept? That's an interesting way to look at it.

Agree, not a new yard. Heddle has existing facilities and perhaps Hike is an option as well. Ottawa may be in Ontario but many Canadians think of it as a suburb of Hull, Quebec.

 

[Git_Kraken]

Agree, not a new yard. Heddle has existing facilities and perhaps Hike is an option as well. Ottawa may be in Ontario but many Canadians think of it as a suburb of Hull, Quebec.

Only those who live in Hull might think that. But they chose to live in Hull when they could have lived in Ottawa so their judgment is suspect.

 

[ngatimozart]

Only those who live in Hull might think that. But they chose to live in Hull when they could have lived in Ottawa so their judgment is suspect.

You could always do an Erich Honnecker and build a wall around them to keep them in.

 

[Git_Kraken]

Anyone have any idea what the circled bit is? It's angle and dimensions are to stubby for a DLF, and it would be a very odd shape for a RADOME type structure. It's important enough to have its own platform to keep it out from the ship for what I can only speculate are improved arcs or clearance.



Here's a topview.


Both of these images were taken from LMC website.

Also note the 24 VLS on the top-down view.

 

[John Fedup]

Anyone have any idea what the circled bit is? It's angle and dimensions are to stubby for a DLF, and it would be a very odd shape for a RADOME type structure. It's important enough to have its own platform to keep it out from the ship for what I can only speculate are improved arcs or clearance.

View attachment 48636

Here's a topview.
View attachment 48637

Both of these images were taken from LMC website.

Also note the 24 VLS on the top-down view.

24 VLS, disappointing and shot sighted it isn’t at least 32. Hopefully later build CSCs will see more.

 

[FormerDirtDart]

Anyone have any idea what the circled bit is? It's angle and dimensions are to stubby for a DLF, and it would be a very odd shape for a RADOME type structure. It's important enough to have its own platform to keep it out from the ship for what I can only speculate are improved arcs or clearance.

View attachment 48636

Here's a topview.
View attachment 48637

Both of these images were taken from LMC website.

Also note the 24 VLS on the top-down view.

A guess would be something similar to the USN's SLQ-32 electronic warfare array

24 VLS, disappointing and shot sighted it isn’t at least 32. Hopefully later build CSCs will see more.

I wouldn't get overly concerned, it's artwork not a detailed schematic. Doesn't pretty much every bit of sourced reporting state that a 32 call Mk 41 system is planned?

 

[Git_Kraken]

24 VLS, disappointing and shot sighted it isn’t at least 32. Hopefully later build CSCs will see more.

Technically it's 30VLS. 24 Mk41 foc'sle and 6 ExLS amidships. I was only referring to the Mk41. Margins somewhere got in the way of the 32, likely due to that massive mast. We'll see where it goes when they get to Flight 2.

 

[John Fedup]

Technically it's 30VLS. 24 Mk41 foc'sle and 6 ExLS amidships. I was only referring to the Mk41. Margins somewhere got in the way of the 32, likely due to that massive mast. We'll see where it goes when they get to Flight 2.

I was hoping for 32 up front but I guess until there is an official announcement we won’t know for sure. If it is 24 up front then I do agree a flight 2 build will require additional cells barring a huge improvement in the geopolitical situation or junior bankrupting the country. Canada requires serious defence investment between CSC and the fighter replacement, not to mention an Aurora and an aerial refuelling aircraft, all stuff that needs to happen sooner rather than later. A real mystery as to how a future sub replacement might evolve. The next 3-5 years will determine if Canada becomes a viable ally or continues down a path to irrelevance.

 

[MapleForce]

I'm not convinced the LMC digital models depict what the actual number of Mk 41 VLS will be. I've noticed their digital models have mostly only shown 24 VLS from the start, prior to the confirmation of 32 VLS in the government infographic. So hopefully, that means they just haven't bothered updating the number of cells in the models. 24 VLS would be quite disappointing, though. I'm really hoping that's not the case.