Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
It has been reported by the UK Defence Journal (see link below) that the first Type 26 Frigate (HMS Glasgow) will enter service 12 months sooner than anticipated. The British Type 26 program team reported in March 2021 that it forecasts achieving the in-service date for ship one (HMS Glasgow) 12 months sooner than planned or forecasted at the time of going on contract. This seems to give the CSC Type 26 Frigate program some hope to at least accomplish the same build time for it's program as well once our build starts. As it stands now the CSC Frigate program is almost 2 yrs behind schedule and does not seem to be gaining any ground. Another reason for the government/Irving Shipyard to quickly finish the CSC Frigate design phase soonest, quickly sign the contract with Lockheed Martin for the first batch as soon as possible.

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It has been reported by the UK Defence Journal (see link below) that the first Type 26 Frigate (HMS Glasgow) will enter service 12 months sooner than anticipated. The British Type 26 program team reported in March 2021 that it forecasts achieving the in-service date for ship one (HMS Glasgow) 12 months sooner than planned or forecasted at the time of going on contract. This seems to give the CSC Type 26 Frigate program some hope to at least accomplish the same build time for it's program as well once our build starts. As it stands now the CSC Frigate program is almost 2 yrs behind schedule and does not seem to be gaining any ground. Another reason for the government/Irving Shipyard to quickly finish the CSC Frigate design phase soonest, quickly sign the contract with Lockheed Martin for the first batch as soon as possible.

The UK yard has a much better pool of experience building warships so not sure this good UK news is applicable to our efforts at Irving. Hopefully some of their build experience will benefit both the CSC and Hunter programs.
 

DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
Absolutely correct John. The shipbuilding experience pool is much better in the UK but don't count Irving Shipbuilding down and out just yet. Irving does have "some" experience building warships. The Halifax class is a good example of that and they seem to be learning fast with the Type 26 Frigate program so hopefully BAEs experience will drum down to the CSC frigate build. :rolleyes:
 

DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
The RCN has a decent YouTube video of Harry DeWolf's northern sea trials.


Its interesting that even with trace heating, there is a decent build up of ice on the ship from sea spray and the amount of manpower needed to deal with it.
Interesting view of Harry DeWolf and what all the AOPS ships will have to do time and time again over their life span.
 

Git_Kraken

Member
The RCN has a decent YouTube video of Harry DeWolf's northern sea trials.


Its interesting that even with trace heating, there is a decent build up of ice on the ship from sea spray and the amount of manpower needed to deal with it.
If you look closely the trace heating seems to be only on certain parts of the ship. Emergency escape lanes on the flight deck for example and not the entire flight deck. Those are generally slushy and melting and the rest is left to ice up.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
If you look closely the trace heating seems to be only on certain parts of the ship. Emergency escape lanes on the flight deck for example and not the entire flight deck. Those are generally slushy and melting and the rest is left to ice up.
You wouldn't put heat tracing all over the ship, it would be extremely expensive, its also unnecessary, exit doors, stairways and escape paths are the most common areas to heat. it looks like they went cheap with the lighting as well, the main searchlights should be 3kw, these are 1.6kw, may 2kw, there also a lot of cheap conventional floodlighting on board, if you're operating in arctic regions LED lighting is the only way to go.
 

DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
If you look closely the trace heating seems to be only on certain parts of the ship. Emergency escape lanes on the flight deck for example and not the entire flight deck. Those are generally slushy and melting and the rest is left to ice up.
It would be interesting to find out if the Trace Heating System were applied to the underside of the flight deck and other parts of the ship as well. If anyone has knowledge of this it would help.:rolleyes:
 

Git_Kraken

Member
Trace heating is only applied to areas that need to remain clear of ice (like emergency routes) or to stop pipes from freezing. So those are the areas where the heating is confined.
 

DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
Trace heating is only applied to areas that need to remain clear of ice (like emergency routes) or to stop pipes from freezing. So those are the areas where the heating is confined.
What are your substantiations for this Git Kraken? Does the CCG have their flight decks for their ice breakers fitted with Trace Heating?:confused:
 

Git_Kraken

Member
Well pipes from freezing is a standard in shipbuilding. And @Calculus posted this a month ago. If you watch it you will see the emergency route heat tracing and notice that the rest of the flight deck. I wouldn't be surprised if the boat deck had it as well.

 

Git_Kraken

Member
And so as predicted it begins.

I noticed that there were suddenly a number of RCN Submarine Videos on the youtubes the last few weeks*:
Victoria Class Video
HMCS Corner Brook undocking

And suddenly the project office is now stood up to look at options and begin the long political fight for submarines.
Navy Kicks off Fight for Subs
It's like there was a plan or something.

There is an error in the article of course. Apparently, Corner Brook may be permanently damaged ~looks at video of Corner Brook being launched after repairs~.

But what isn't an error is convincing the Canadian Public who are Ocean Blind or Naval Blind that submarines are needed, particularly in the face of a hostile press and the ongoing punching bag that the Victoria class is.

*watched both vids to the end and liked. Need that youtube algorithm to educate the public when they do a search.
 
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DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
The RCN has finally kicked off the long anticipated report to replace Canada's Victoria class submarines today-14 July 2021. Some would say, too little, too late but the first baby steps have now been taken in this controversial debate. The CAF is establishing a Canadian Patrol Submarine Project (CPSP) this year to advise the government on potential replacement classes of submarines to avoid gaps in submarine capability.

Navy kicks off long-anticipated push to replace Canada's beleaguered submarine fleet
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The path of least resistance may be a follow-on order after the completion of Norway-Germany order recently announced. The sub may not tick off all the RCN boxes but cost wise it is probably the only affordable option.
 

DAVID DUNLOP

Active Member
Unfortunately John, an 1830t (submerged) Type 212A or CD version from Germany will not compete with a Future Canadian sub the RCN will need IOT do the tasks required of it by the government. Even the 2455t Victoria class that we have now will not be up to scratch by the time we are ready to acquire a replacement. The 212A or CD is a good sub no doubt, but is only truly capable in Littoral waters. There are very few 4-5000t ocean-going subs throughout the world which would be great replacements required by Canada. The Australian Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A AIP offered by France or the Japanese Soyou 29SS class AIP with LIB Technologies would be much better options (other than going nuclear.....which would never happen!). Lets just let the RCN do their due-diligence, come up with some options and make their recommendation to the government. Yes, what ever happens, it will not be cheap if we are to acquire 12 subs as recommended by the Senate. I can probably see a cost of at least $60-80B CAD. A shocking price tag I know but a price that will have to be paid if Canada is to remain in the "Silent Service" business. :eek:
 

Git_Kraken

Member
Unfortunately John, an 1830t (submerged) Type 212A or CD version from Germany will not compete with a Future Canadian sub the RCN will need IOT do the tasks required of it by the government.
I think it doubtful that the German coastal/Baltic submarine design makes a bid given the mission sets that RCN subs are likely to be doing, but we don't know what the req's are yet, let alone if the government will agree to getting new subs. So I would standby on that one.

As for numbers, I think 6 are more likely. There isn't even close to enough crew to get 12. Complete pipe dream. As for the type of sub, well the Dutch replacement program is a good place to start. There the Shortfin is going against both German and Swedish subs under a competition that likely has similar requirements to what Canadian ones will be.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Come on guys, a Japanese or Australian “big ocean” sub would be great but the dollars aren’t available once junior’s COVID debt bomb is fully understood. Under ice capability might not be an issue by the time subs are ordered let alone delivered. Realistically RCN submarine operations will be patrolling the approaches to the North American continent and perhaps the Caribbean/top part of South America. I seriously doubt the Japanese want to deal with our military procurement horror show. The OZ-France program, likely no enthusiasm either, great if something actually happens but $hit seems to happen more often than not with joint development projects.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Come on guys, a Japanese or Australian “big ocean” sub would be great but the dollars aren’t available once junior’s COVID debt bomb is fully understood. Under ice capability might not be an issue by the time subs are ordered let alone delivered. Realistically RCN submarine operations will be patrolling the approaches to the North American continent and perhaps the Caribbean/top part of South America. I seriously doubt the Japanese want to deal with our military procurement horror show. The OZ-France program, likely no enthusiasm either, great if something actually happens but $hit seems to happen more often than not with joint development projects.
I have to agree. Unless there is a significant cultural change within the political and government bureaucratic elite, AND a thorough restructuring of the defence procurement system, the status quo will prevail. Of course this won't happen because there are to many vested interests. However if it were to happen there would be significant cost savings and benefits to the Canadian tax payer.
 
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