Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

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Delta204

Active Member
Black Jack Shellac said:
A couple of new articles on the CSC:

Billions in trouble: How the crown jewel of Canada’s shipbuilding strategy became a possible financial disaster waiting in the wings

launching_the_canadian_surface_combatant_project

The first is a bit of a hit piece by David Pugliese where he seems to forget much of the procurement process he himself reported on. Especially concerning the lack of intellectual property transfers offered by the FREMM group being one of the major reasons for the rejection of that offer. Not to mention that it was a non-conforming bid and any acceptance would have brought on multiple lawsuits from the conforming bidders.

The second is a bit long winded but somewhat interesting read. Some of it is trying to explain why it is difficult to get good estimates of costs etc. I would suggest that the article is partially correct in the explanation, while also somewhat excusing the procurement process Canada goes through (as flawed as it is). So it may be a bit self serving. However, it was written by Ian Mack (Rear-Admiral Retired), so I will certainly give him the benefit of the doubt.
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The Pugliese article is pretty in depth but you are correct, he has never been a fan of the CSC program. There are a lot of valid points made and many of them will be echoed in the upcoming PBO report due in Feb (I think).

The more interesting comparison IMO is between the CSC and the FFG(X) version of FREMM. The USN might have a real winner with this project and while it won't have the all the same capabilities as the CSC (smaller mission bay), it will be very close - and at a much cheaper cost, how much cheaper remains to be seen but that could make it difficult for the Cdn govt. to justify the extra price.

@John Fedup ... the US Army bought a 7.62 NATO DMR (very similar to this Cdn rifle) a few years ago from H&K which I think was around $12K USD per rifle (and that's probably 4-5 years old?) so not completely outrageous, they also ordered 5-7K not just a few hundred so volume is a factor here I would imagine. At the end of the day it costs more money to build stuff in Canada, always has and probably always will.
 
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ngatimozart

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
John Fedup said:
@Black Jack Shellac, there was another article in the Ottawa Citizen about $24,000 semi automatic 7.62 mm rifles for the army. If true, it does give concern about big programs going sideways.
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What? Are they gold plated or something? More likely the journo and / or the newsrag have put the decimal point in the wrong place. Now they'll be to stubborn to admit to the mistake.
 
D

Delta204

Active Member
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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D

Delta204

Active Member
ngatimozart said:
Thanks. We acquired the LMT 7.62 mm rifle as a designated shooter weapon for the NZ Army. Can't remember what they cost but the best buy, rifle wise, since the L1A1 SLR.
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Yes those LMT's are fine rifles. I do find this category of weapons an interesting one - perhaps should add to a discussion in the army forum. Not many fleets of 7.62 autoloaders out there and only a small number of manufacturers who make them for mil use; Knights Armament, H&K and LMT pretty much have the market cornered. Of course in Canada we have to make these in house so we adopted a design from Colt USA who previously had a small number of gov contracts but I don't think more than a few dozen by any user.

Back on track, here is an article recently written by a former senior defence bureaucrat that discusses the cost in a bit more detail and offers some suggestions for improvement.

ESTIMATED COSTS FOR THE CANADIAN SURFACE COMBATANTS (CSC) — espritdecorps
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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A very interesting read that. I certainly agree with his argument. It does beggar belief why a govt would abandon it's responsibilities to a commercial entity for such a large and costly project. Where's the oversight, especially the Parliamentary and Treasury oversight?
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Delta204 said:
Yes those LMT's are fine rifles. I do find this category of weapons an interesting one - perhaps should add to a discussion in the army forum. Not many fleets of 7.62 autoloaders out there and only a small number of manufacturers who make them for mil use; Knights Armament, H&K and LMT pretty much have the market cornered. Of course in Canada we have to make these in house so we adopted a design from Colt USA who previously had a small number of gov contracts but I don't think more than a few dozen by any user.

Back on track, here is an article recently written by a former senior defence bureaucrat that discusses the cost in a bit more detail and offers some suggestions for improvement.

ESTIMATED COSTS FOR THE CANADIAN SURFACE COMBATANTS (CSC) — espritdecorps
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Some of the recommendations are worthwhile. At this point, any change of design would not accomplish any savings due to delays and overall capability would be diminished compared to the T26. One issue I have with this report is shipyard selection. Only two yards existed when the program was started (Davie was bankrupt at the time). Furthermore, IMO, a naval program has no place in the province that continues to threaten the separation option when it opposes policies of the federal government that aren’t to it’s liking. I appreciate the other two yards aren’t beacons of excellence.
 
ASSAIL

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
John Fedup said:
Some of the recommendations are worthwhile. At this point, any change of design would not accomplish any savings due to delays and overall capability would be diminished compared to the T26. One issue I have with this report is shipyard selection. Only two yards existed when the program was started (Davie was bankrupt at the time). Furthermore, IMO, a naval program has no place in the province that continues to threaten the separation option when it opposes policies of the federal government that aren’t to it’s liking. I appreciate the other two yards aren’t beacons of excellence.
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They’ve learned from Scotland.;)
 
C

Calculus

Well-Known Member
ngatimozart said:
Thanks. We acquired the LMT 7.62 mm rifle as a designated shooter weapon for the NZ Army. Can't remember what they cost but the best buy, rifle wise, since the L1A1 SLR.
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Delta204 said:
Nope that number appears to be correct, here is the article: New rifles delivered for Canadian Forces sniper teams | Ottawa Citizen

Not to derail the thread but like I said earlier the somewhat comparable US Army program isn't that far off from these numbers...
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Exactly. The Americans paid quite a bit for their sniper support rifles as well (H&K confirms: This is the Army's new and improved sniper rifle). Any rifle produced in limited quantities will have a high unit cost. The rifle program in the Ottawa Citizen article above (C20) includes spare parts AND the tooling so that these can be produced by Colt Canada (formerly Diemaco) in Canada. There is a requirement by the GoC that all service rifles be produced in Canada so manufacturing can be scaled easily in case of war. The cost of the gun appears high, but that's simply because only 272 were produced in the first batch. The same complaints were heard back in the late eighties when the army started to deploy the C7 rifle, but that gun (and all its variants) went on to enjoy significant international sales successes with the militaries of the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden, not to mention the British SAS and SBS. Production numbers are in the tens of thousands. Colt Canada (Diemaco) is recognized for its outstanding quality, so there is a very good chance, notwithstanding follow or orders from the CF, that this rifle will also be sold internationally, which will drive down unit costs over the life of the program. In any case, the cost is one the GoC is willing to live with in order to gain (and retain) a capacity to produce domestically. This is NOT an example of a poorly run procurement.

www.canadiansoldiers.com

www.canadiansoldiers.com
www.canadiansoldiers.com

HOME

refresh browser
www.coltcanada.com www.coltcanada.com

Now, back to Navy stuff...
 
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Systems Adict

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
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Systems Adict said:
I'm not liking the politics you're bringing into this thread.....:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Can you please stick to Naval issues & NOT Scottish Politics...;)

LoL
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JUST in case ANYONE thinks I'm an archetypal Scotsman, who'll stick 'the heid' on ya, then buy u a pint, I'm not.

I come from THE best / friendliest / smallest country in the world, that made some of the BIGGEST developments to other nations / technology / food & drink, than any other nation in the history of the planet....

& post #2631, shows that we Scots also have a sense of humour...



SA
 
ASSAIL

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Systems Adict said:
JUST in case ANYONE thinks I'm an archetypal Scotsman, who'll stick 'the heid' on ya, then buy u a pint, I'm not.

I come from THE best / friendliest / smallest country in the world, that made some of the BIGGEST developments to other nations / technology / food & drink, than any other nation in the history of the planet....

& post #2631, shows that we Scots also have a sense of humour...



SA
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Yep, archetypal for sure!
Then there’s haggis, bagpipes and porridge, mmmmm.:eek:;)
 
C

Calculus

Well-Known Member
Systems Adict said:
JUST in case ANYONE thinks I'm an archetypal Scotsman, who'll stick 'the heid' on ya, then buy u a pint, I'm not.

I come from THE best / friendliest / smallest country in the world, that made some of the BIGGEST developments to other nations / technology / food & drink, than any other nation in the history of the planet....

& post #2631, shows that we Scots also have a sense of humour...



SA
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Beautiful country, and lovely people. I spent a few weeks there in 2014, as part of a larger UK tour, looking at how airports handled security. I got to see Inverness, Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Aberdeen. It is very high on my list of places to go back to, though as a tourist, so I can enjoy the countryside and smaller towns this time, and perhaps the islands.

This thread seems to be veering off topic quite a bit lately... :)
 
C

Calculus

Well-Known Member
Calculus said:
Beautiful country, and lovely people. I spent a few weeks there in 2014, as part of a larger UK tour, looking at how airports handled security. I got to see Inverness, Glasgow, Edinburgh, and Aberdeen. It is very high on my list of places to go back to, though as a tourist, so I can enjoy the countryside and smaller towns this time, and perhaps the islands.

This thread seems to be veering off topic quite a bit lately... :)
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And, in answer to the inevitable Haggis question, I have eaten it, but it was here in Canada (Cape Breton). In Scotland, I mostly ate fish and seafood.
 
John Fedup

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This article outlines the sad history of Canada’s Victoria class subs. At this point I don’t think another upgrade on these boats makes sense, just more money down the drain. Spend minimal money allowing them to be used for training only and begin an acquisition program now as it will take 20 years at least for a Canadian government to figure out the French-Australian or possibly a future Japanese sub are the only two non nuclear options.
www.thedrive.com

The Saga Of This Long-Busted Submarine Is An Example Of How Sad Canada's Tiny Sub Fleet Is

Canada's four Victoria class submarines have been plagued with problems and haven't gone on an operational cruise in two years.
www.thedrive.com www.thedrive.com
 
P

Pusser Tas

New Member
Canadians were involved in the 'Collins Class' programme. Oz hoped that the RCN would purchase these submarines though that never happened.

It is well known that the the 'Attack Class' will have a new periscope that does not have to penetrate the surface.

Canada would be a most welcome partner in this project

Happy Christmas to all the readers of this forum

:D
 
alexsa

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Pusser Tas said:
Canadians were involved in the 'Collins Class' programme. Oz hoped that the RCN would purchase these submarines though that never happened.

It is well known that the the 'Attack Class' will have a new periscope that does not have to penetrate the surface.

Canada would be a most welcome partner in this project

Happy Christmas to all the readers of this forum

:D
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Are you sure about this. If so please provide a link because the new masts I am aware of don't penetrate the hull of the submarine being an optronic mast of the sort mentioned on page 12 here:

Defence Connect - Defence Connect

The advantage of these is you get a good quick (3 seconds) all round look with all the benefit of image enhancement and interface with the combat system.

Not sure how a periscope that does not penetrate the 'surface' is going to offer much beyond an underwater look (and that is only possible at close range)
 
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