Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

[ngatimozart]

Apparently the Canadian govt is close to deciding the CF18 withdrawal plan from the Anti - Daesh Coalition. At the same time they are looking at other airborne assets that could be of use to the Coalition.

On the Hornet replacement front, the Defence Minister, Harjit Sajjan, has not ruled in or out any particular aircraft for the Hornet replacement contest.

Sajjan indicated that the new government would not actively block the F-35 from participating. “The question always comes up about whether it’s F-35 or another type of aircraft,” he says. “This is not about the F-35. My mandate and my role is about replacing the F-18. We are committed to replacing the F-18s in a timely manner so that we do not create a capability gap that has been created in the past with our ships.”

Given the history of recent Canadian defence procurement, this will be an indication on the new govts determination with regard to defence.

 

[ngatimozart]

CASR has an article discussing the timeline for Canada's FWSAR replacement program. It is another excellent example of failed defence procurement.:el

FWSAR Project - Fixed-Wing Search and Rescue - Project Timeline - Procurement Delays - CASR - Canadian American Strategic Review - FWSAR PMO - Project Mangement Office - Air Force Procurement - CC-115 Buffalo - Buffalo Replacement - SAR Hercules - FW

Hmm, it certainly is a long gestation with no guarantee of final delivery. I am wondering if the Canuck defence procurement people are trained at the same place as the Indian defence procurement people. As an outsider, I am thinking that there needs to be a major restructuring of the whole system, with a clean out of existing personnel and a modern commercial business style of practice, culture and methodology instituted. You cannot blame all the delays upon the pollies.

 

[StobieWan]

On going debate in the Ottawa Citizen about the F-35. Good summary of why it should be selected.

Other fighter jets can’t match the F-35, says defence analyst | Ottawa Citizen

Again, some priceless quotes in the comments sections on the various articles I did love Don Bacon with his "any competition would eliminate the F35 as there is no tested and evaluated version available" after which he suggests the Gripen NG might be a good bet.

Bacon, you utter muppet...

 

[John Fedup]

Hmm, it certainly is a long gestation with no guarantee of final delivery. I am wondering if the Canuck defence procurement people are trained at the same place as the Indian defence procurement people. As an outsider, I am thinking that there needs to be a major restructuring of the whole system, with a clean out of existing personnel and a modern commercial business style of practice, culture and methodology instituted. You cannot blame all the delays upon the pollies.

Perhaps not all but most. The SeaKing and the CF-18 replacements are further examples and lets not forget the impending fluster cuck over at the RCN with the future surface combatant ships and AORs.

 

[John Fedup]

Apparently the Canadian govt is close to deciding the CF18 withdrawal plan from the Anti - Daesh Coalition. At the same time they are looking at other airborne assets that could be of use to the Coalition.

On the Hornet replacement front, the Defence Minister, Harjit Sajjan, has not ruled in or out any particular aircraft for the Hornet replacement contest.

Given the history of recent Canadian defence procurement, this will be an indication on the new govts determination with regard to defence.

A liberal using defence procurement and "timely manner" in the same sentence, (oxymoron alert)!

 

[John Fedup]

Embraer is bidding on the FWSAR project. Could be an interesting alternative.

See Fight Global site for details.

 

[John Fedup]

For those of you who think I am overly critical of our new PM, turd junior, check out the attached link. Basically it describes a CF-18 replacement by having Bombardier build a Euro jet. What could possibilly go wrong by having Canada's worst managed company (from a fairly large pool of screw-ups) and Canada's useless military procurement organization involved in replacing our fighter jets with oversight by junior? LMFAO!

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/bl...might-be-exactly-what-ailing-bombardier-needs

 

[t68]

For those of you who think I am overly critical of our new PM, turd junior, check out the attached link. Basically it describes a CF-18 replacement by having Bombardier build a Euro jet. What could possibilly go wrong by having Canada's worst managed company (from a fairly large pool of screw-ups) and Canada's useless military procurement organization involved in replacing our fighter jets with oversight by junior? LMFAO!

John Ivison: Ottawa’s fighter jet dilemma might be exactly what ailing Bombardier needs

Geez that would be like the Ausgov starting the goverment aircraft factor again which built the legacy hornets from crates from the US

 

[vonnoobie]

Geez that would be like the Ausgov starting the goverment aircraft factor again which built the legacy hornets from crates from the US

Not being from that era I have to ask since google is a bit lax on details was there actually issues with the aussie built Hornets? (cost, quality, delays etc).

According to wiki (not the best source I know) while having some production delays earlier on requiring some parts to be procured from the US to get things back on track they still came in under the estimated cost so I fail to see how that has any relevance to John's concerns.

 

[t68]

Not being from that era I have to ask since google is a bit lax on details was there actually issues with the aussie built Hornets? (cost, quality, delays etc).

According to wiki (not the best source I know) while having some production delays earlier on requiring some parts to be procured from the US to get things back on track they still came in under the estimated cost so I fail to see how that has any relevance to John's concerns.

Majority of of GAF aircraft came in kits or crates and we just assembled 90% of the aircraft, why I brought it up is if they are going to get Bombardier to build fighter jets is like starting GAF from the start. They might as well buy it as a goverment owned entity.

 

[Joe Black]

TBH, in the current economic circumstances with falling oil prices, Canada has no chance of acquiring the F-35 or in sufficient numbers with the falling of Canadian dollars vs the USD.

F-18E/F in my view is a poor 2nd choice, nevetheless a good 2nd choice. Canada can learn a lot of how we do it in Australia and how RAAF has been using the Super Hornets. Afterall, the most of arduous tasks RCAF are given are supporting Coalition forces overseas, plus the air patrols as part of NORAD.

 

[gf0012-aust]

TBH, in the current economic circumstances with falling oil prices, Canada has no chance of acquiring the F-35 or in sufficient numbers with the falling of Canadian dollars vs the USD.

F-18E/F in my view is a poor 2nd choice, nevetheless a good 2nd choice. Canada can learn a lot of how we do it in Australia and how RAAF has been using the Super Hornets. Afterall, the most of arduous tasks RCAF are given are supporting Coalition forces overseas, plus the air patrols as part of NORAD.

actually - we went to the canadians re hornet solutions - they failed on politics - not on solution sets

 

[John Fedup]

actually - we went to the canadians re hornet solutions - they failed on politics - not on solution sets

Yes, centre barrel replacement for F18s was done by L3 in Mirabel Quebec for the RCAF and RAAF.

 

[gf0012-aust]

F-18E/F in my view is a poor 2nd choice, nevetheless a good 2nd choice. Canada can learn a lot of how we do it in Australia and how RAAF has been using the Super Hornets. Afterall, the most of arduous tasks RCAF are given are supporting Coalition forces overseas, plus the air patrols as part of NORAD.

how so? within the shornet fleet we have included growlers - and that gives a seat of the pants and command training and development cycle which can't be provided by any other jet

ie develpment and integration of ewarfare at the combat fighter level on an asset that is only surpassed by much larger and slower alternatives.

I would be surprised if the growlers go home after the JSF's arrive

they fulfill an ewarfare role that is only available to one other user - the USN

ewarfare SOPs at the combat operating picture level has had an exponential impact - and we are only at the dev stage so far.

 

[John Fedup]

As the FWSAR project crawls along there is also junior's defence review that is to be ready sometime in 2017. The RCAF seems intent on keeping their turf as per the link below. I am sure there will be other issues to be fought over which will delay the defence review well past 2017.

Harjit Sajjan beats fast retreat on the potential for search and rescue privatization | Ottawa Citizen

 

[SpazSinbad]

how so? within the shornet fleet we have included growlers - and that gives a seat of the pants and command training and development cycle which can't be provided by any other jet....

...ewarfare SOPs at the combat operating picture level has had an exponential impact - and we are only at the dev stage so far.

Air Power Development Centre - Podcasts: Growler: Force Level Electronic Warfare for the ADF

PDF made from the slides in presentation : http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=22816 (1.4Mb)
&
Growlers’ Success Prompts Rethinking Of Operations | Defense content from Aviation Week

The RAAF Growlers will upgrade with Next Gen Jammer NGJ when available.

 

[SpazSinbad]

Perhaps the Canuks will be glad of the EW built in to the F-35? Naw - they are never happy eh. USAF have made several references to the good ability of the F-35 but never give details. One recent example:

Air Force Magazine An Air Force For the Future April 2016 Tirpak

"...Welsh suggested that the F-35 has strong electronic attack capability and said it has EA equipment “built into” it, while the Navy EA-18G Growler has had to have external equipment purpose-built for the mission.

Welsh also noted that there has been a defensewide look at EW/EA for over a year, but that a clear definition still eludes USAF. “A single broad term … actually confuses things,” he asserted in a press conference. “So we’re trying to clearly define the mission area, the requirements within it, and who should have the lead for each of those things.”..."

 

[John Fedup]

Looking forward to Rafale proponents here in Canada explaining pricing for Rafales versus F-35s. While is hard to compare pricing on various proposals without the breakdown costs, India is paying $8.8 billion for 36 jets. This price includes unspecified quantities of weapons and spares. Assuming a $100m price for a F-35, that leaves $144m for weapons and spares or Canada could buy two F-35s and $44m in spares/weapons instead of a Rafale with whatever. The F-35 might be less than 100m if we time the purchase correctly (very unlikely). The other interesting point is India agreed to only 50% for offset industrial benefits. Apparently Dassault wanted $12 billion initially. I don't understand how anyone in Canada thinks this jet could be less than a F-35.

Finally, A Deal. India to Buy 36 Rafale Jets for $8.8 Billion

 

[gf0012-aust]

Looking forward to Rafale proponents here in Canada explaining pricing for Rafales versus F-35s. While is hard to compare pricing on various proposals without the breakdown costs, India is paying $8.8 billion for 36 jets. This price includes unspecified quantities of weapons and spares. Assuming a $100m price for a F-35, that leaves $144m for weapons and spares or Canada could buy two F-35s and $44m in spares/weapons instead of a Rafale with whatever. The F-35 might be less than 100m if we time the purchase correctly (very unlikely). The other interesting point is India agreed to only 50% for offset industrial benefits. Apparently Dassault wanted $12 billion initially. I don't understand how anyone in Canada thinks this jet could be less than a F-35.

Finally, A Deal. India to Buy 36 Rafale Jets for $8.8 Billion

you need to also factor in contingency - that usually adds between 30-50% on large capital acquisitions. whatever figure you have quoted as "hard" platform/unit costs you can almost double for a proper through life acquisition (30+ years)

 

[John Fedup]

you need to also factor in contingency - that usually adds between 30-50% on large capital acquisitions. whatever figure you have quoted as "hard" platform/unit costs you can almost double for a proper through life acquisition (30+ years)

Yes, I understand that. Our C-17 purchase was at least a factor of two above the usual $300m when the a 20 year support agreement is factored in. Still, a unit cost of $244m is pretty steep, but without breakdown costs , who knows? The link only specified "an unspecified amount of spares and weapons". The length period for support is not mentioned in the link. The Canadian public has been snowed with BS that the F-35 is the unaffordable. Perhaps this is an opportunity for LM to provide an estimate for the F-35 capital/support costs for various timeframes. I understand that for competitive reasons this info would have to be massaged for public consumption. However, assuming a unit cost of $100m per jet for the F-35, the extra $144m should go a long way towards support for 30 years and we would get a better "long term" solution.

The other issue is the weapons included. Do you have an estimate of what percentage of the $244m might be for weapons in a basic fighter purchase?

The Indian government's acceptance of only 50% for industrial offsets must be a realization that the IAF's concerns for new kit are critical, yes? Junior will demand 100% as per his election promise. Don't see that as being possible for any Euro vendor.