Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF) News and Discussions

[oldsig127]

Makes the recent comments from our def minister on the suddenly "urgent" need to replace legacy hornets make sense now... very interested to know what the details are - no doubt Boeing has been working the new government hard since the election.

I may be accused of cynicism, but when the "decision on the F-35" is made, I'd expect the (by then) existence of the F-18E/F in service would advantage Boeing on the grounds of there already being spares, trained pilots and ground crew etc. in Canadian service.

At least when Australia chose to buy F-18F it was to replace the F-111 and not as the thin end of a wedge.

That said, if done in good faith it's a decent hedge against further dithering putting off replacements until the pilots are forced to walk to work

oldsig

 

[John Fedup]

When it comes to junior, I am a cynic. Never the less, reality must have set in. Spending yet another $hitload of money on upgrading jets that are 40 years old makes no sense. The delays in the JSF program and political opposition to it made this decision inevitable as well. It will be interesting to see how many Superhornets are actually ordered as a stop-gap. If the order is 24 or less then the F-35 will be in the running when more jets need to be ordered post 2025 and assuming it functions as promised. Most likely the SH production will be closed by then as well.

If a larger order is placed then I fear oldsig is correct, it will be easier for junior to order more SH rather than F-35s which is what he really wants to do. Mind you he may not get re-elected in 2020.:nutkick

 

[t68]

It will be interesting to see how many Superhornets are actually ordered as a stop-gap. If the order is 24 or less then the F-35 will be in the running when more jets need to be ordered post 2025 and assuming it functions as promised. Most likely the SH production will be closed by then as well.

since the article suggested someone came out to oz and had a look at our program they might see the value in pre wiring for G's and converting at a later date

 

[gf0012-aust]

if they want to start looking at 6th gen force development then they really should look at getting Growlers as well. It will provide a training, development and capability lead in for what JSF can do at the platform contribution level to the overall battlespace operating picture.

 

[ngatimozart]

if they want to start looking at 6th gen force development then they really should look at getting Growlers as well. It will provide a training, development and capability lead in for what JSF can do at the platform contribution level to the overall battlespace operating picture.

Yes, and maybe look at something like the Wedgetail as well. From the linked article it appears to be the way forward in airborne battlespace management capability and this would tie in well. They should also look at the KC30MRTT as replacement for the RCAF A310 tanker capability. From all accounts the KC30 has served the RAAF well on Operation OKRA.

 

[gf0012-aust]

there's a danger for any modern airforce if all they do is replace a platform with another based on how the prev platform did its job and overall capability intent.

the system of systems issue for a joint force is the over riding issue now..

the problem with all the confected JSF hysteria is that the overall picture has been missed on how dramatically that future force plan has actually changed and contributed to modern future force developments. this is despite the fact that it hasn't gone mainstream with all the current partners.

if they're just buying shooters to fill a shooters role, then they're not going forward. Just buying Shornets won't start the path

 

[swerve]

Yes, and maybe look at something like the Wedgetail as well. From the linked article it appears to be the way forward in airborne battlespace management capability and this would tie in well. They should also look at the KC30MRTT as replacement for the RCAF A310 tanker capability. From all accounts the KC30 has served the RAAF well on Operation OKRA.

They might be tempted to go for the Globaleye, since the platform is built by Bombardier.

 

[John Fedup]

since the article suggested someone came out to oz and had a look at our program they might see the value in pre wiring for G's and converting at a later date

Absolutely hope so! This is even more important if the Liberals decide later on to go with more SHs instead of F-35s.

 

[John Fedup]

Yes, and maybe look at something like the Wedgetail as well. From the linked article it appears to be the way forward in airborne battlespace management capability and this would tie in well. They should also look at the KC30MRTT as replacement for the RCAF A310 tanker capability. From all accounts the KC30 has served the RAAF well on Operation OKRA.

Given the troubles Boeing has with its KC46 program, the Airbus alternate KC45 (US) version looks good. Boeing will likely try to package their tanker with a follow- up SH buy as new tankers will be due in 2025.

 

[ngatimozart]

They might be tempted to go for the Globaleye, since the platform is built by Bombardier.

Or the ELTA CAEW which although based on the G550 platform, could probably be integrated into the Bombardier Gxxxx platform series as IAI are doing with their MPA.

 

[ngatimozart]

Given the troubles Boeing has with its KC46 program, the Airbus alternate KC45 (US) version looks good. Boeing will likely try to package their tanker with a follow- up SH buy as new tankers will be due in 2025.

The alternate KC45 never got into production so its really pointless even mentioning it.

 

[t68]

The alternate KC45 never got into production so its really pointless even mentioning it.

Wasnt KC-45 just a re-designated a MRTT?

 

[John Fedup]

Perhaps a Growler makes more sense at this point than a Superhornet. It would be easier to sole-source (apparently that's ok for Liberals but not for Conservatives). As junior won't let the RCAF bomb ISIL, at least Growlers would be able to offer EW support to allied airforces assuming junior and his fellow kumbayah Liberals allow it.

The CBC is reporting that Canada didn't make its JSF payment which is past due so maybe the Liberals really are proposing this SH or Growler buy as a slow withdrawal from a F-35 buy.
Liberals miss membership payment to stay in F-35 consortium - Politics - CBC News

The CBC is now reporting the 30 million consortium payment will be processed by DND shortly.

 

[SpazSinbad]

IF money is supposed to be saved I cannot see it IF the F-35A will be around 85 million US dollars soon (2019). USN estimate for one Super Hornet (with all the relevant bits onboard is 86.6 million US dollars - add extra for Growler pre-wiring (known from Oz) and add FMS surcharge.

U.S. Navy Mishap Costs Soar With Recent Incidents | Defense content from Aviation Week 06 Jun 2016 Michael Fabey

"...The May 26 [2016] loss of the [two] Super Hornets cost the Navy about $173.2 million, the service says... [$86.6 million each] [ https://news.usni.org/2016/05/26/br...off-north-carolina-air-crew-condition-unknown ]

 

[John Fedup]

Wasnt KC-45 just a re-designated a MRTT?

That's what I thought. I believe AirBus was going to have it built in a new plant which was to be in Alabama.

 

[John Fedup]

IF money is supposed to be saved I cannot see it IF the F-35A will be around 85 million US dollars soon (2019). USN estimate for one Super Hornet (with all the relevant bits onboard is 86.6 million US dollars - add extra for Growler pre-wiring (known from Oz) and add FMS surcharge.

U.S. Navy Mishap Costs Soar With Recent Incidents | Defense content from Aviation Week 06 Jun 2016 Michael Fabey

It has zero to do with money now, it is all about junior pleasing his minions anti-JSF bias. Defence is not important in their kumbayah fantasy world.:flaming

 

[swerve]

The alternate KC45 never got into production so its really pointless even mentioning it.

Tell that to the air forces of Australia, France, Singapore, the UAE, Saudi Arabia & South Korea, which operate or have ordered the A330 MRTT, of which the KC-45 was just a USAified version*, & Spain, Qatar, the Netherlands, Poland & Norway, which have selected it but not yet placed orders AFAIK.

*I missed out the UK because its A330 tankers don't have booms.

 

[John Fedup]

Tell that to the air forces of Australia, France, Singapore, the UAE, Saudi Arabia & South Korea, which operate or have ordered the A330 MRTT, of which the KC-45 was just a USAified version*, & Spain, Qatar, the Netherlands, Poland & Norway, which have selected it but not yet placed orders AFAIK.

*I missed out the UK because its A330 tankers don't have booms.

I guess the Boeing KC-46 doesn't have a boom yet for the USAF either. BTW, why did the UK not select a boom option? IIRC, the boom is desirable for large fuel flow which allows for faster refueling of C-17s, A400Ms, and C-130Js which the UK has.

 

[swerve]

I don't understand why the RAF doesn't have any boom-equipped aircraft. Hose & drogue was thought fast enough for all our aircraft in the past (& it's got faster over the years: IIRC the fuselage-mounted hose unit on most of our A330s is faster than some booms used to be), but when we started buying aircraft equipped for boom refuelling only (C-17, RC-135, & P-8 to come), IMO the argument for at least some of our tankers to have booms seemed incontestable - unless we fitted them with probes, which we haven't.

AFAIK the argument is that we don't need booms, as all the aircraft that can't use them have long enough ranges not to need refuelling. I don't believe it. IMO it's probably just money.

 

[ngatimozart]

Tell that to the air forces of Australia, France, Singapore, the UAE, Saudi Arabia & South Korea, which operate or have ordered the A330 MRTT, of which the KC-45 was just a USAified version*, & Spain, Qatar, the Netherlands, Poland & Norway, which have selected it but not yet placed orders AFAIK.

*I missed out the UK because its A330 tankers don't have booms.

No, I was being very specific because only in the proposed US service was it known as the KC45 and it would've had US specific modifications. The RAAF call it the KC30 and others the A330 MRTT. Regarding the RAF Voyager acquisition sans boom, I think that is possibly a cost reduction measure. I agree that the lack of a boom is somewhat short sighted.