Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

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vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Australia has a new defence minister ... Marise Payne. She is the first female defence minister. She doesn't seem to have any experience in defence.
Realistically who in government has any knowledge or experience in there roles? Very very few.

The best one can hope for is that the particular minister in the role they are given are open and willing to listen to those who know what they are talking about and act accordingly.

Based on her past roles she does seem to be good at her job, Finger's crossed her success in her past portfolio's follow's on into defence. In the past she has spent time on parliamentary committees on defence and foreign affair's to she isn't exactly green but rather one of the few in recent times with any basic experience. She has been spoken highly from a number of people about her ability to listen to other's and consider all views. From what I have read I'm actually quite impressed with the choice compared to what we have had.

In regard's to a third AOR I highly dealt the government would get 2 differing design's especially built around the same time frame. To me if they mentioned getting a third one from Korea then it sound's like the Spanish option is no more.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
she's high;y respected within defence.
And has been the Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade and Chair of the Human Rights Committee.
She is a very accomplished women and an excellent choice. From what I read her grasp of detail and adherence to correct process will be a refreshing change.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
And has been the Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade and Chair of the Human Rights Committee.
She is a very accomplished women and an excellent choice. From what I read her grasp of detail and adherence to correct process will be a refreshing change.
she'll be a breath of fresh air. the prev incumbent was out of his depth.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Perhaps her promotion could be read as a repudiation of the Abbott/Andrews era.

I liked this quote from Turnbull.

“Governments come and go, ministers come and go, our strategic interests remain very consistent.”

Hopefully this will mean no more captain's calls and that we will see a period of sensible, sustained defence policy that will get bipartisan support from both sides of politics.
 

Joe Black

Active Member
And more talks about Option J is out of favour

(Right mouse click and open link in Incognito window)
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...xes_B7sYpi5QsVeCw&sig2=I_eciK8W5c2_dISxM6PhIg

Japan falls out of favour for $20bn submarine deal...

Japan has gone from frontrunner to outsider in its bid to win the $20 billion deal to build the navy’s new submarines after the removal of Tony Abbott and a new push to build the fleet largely in Australia.

German shipbuilder TKMS and France’s DCNS are now *considered by insiders to be joint favourites for the lucrative deal, employing aggressive and sophisticated national lobbying campaigns in contrast to the muted approach adopted by Tokyo.

The deposing of Mr Abbott this week was a major blow to Tokyo’s hopes of securing the contract, given that Japan was the former prime minister’s “captain’s pick” for the submarine bid.

Tokyo’s chance of winning the bid are seen to have been further harmed by Defence Minister Kevin Andrews on Thursday giving the strongest indication yet that at least 70 per cent of work on the new submarines was likely to be done in Australia.

Japan has never built submar*ines overseas before and is the only one of the three bidders not to state publicly that it could build most of the new fleet in Adelaide.

Political issues are also clouding the bid, with protests in Tokyo this week, including a fist fight in Japan’s parliament, over a security bill that could see the Japane*se military fighting abroad as part of Prime Minister Shinzo Abe’s push for a less pacifist security policy.

The row raises doubts about whether Mr Abe can muster enough public and political support to allow the unprecedented sale of sensitive Japanese submarine technology to Australia.

Japan’s bid was hatched last year as a result of Mr Abbott’s close relationship with Mr Abe, the prime minister initially wanting to award the submarine *contract to Japan without a competitive process.

Early this year, Mr Abbott was reluctantly forced into accepting a three-way competitive evaluation process for the new submarines, but Germany and France still harboured private fears that while Mr Abbott remained prime minister he might still override the findings of this process and choose Japan as the winner.

Although none of the three bidders has built a conventional submarine as large as the 4000-tonne-plus boats that Australia wants, the German and French companies have experience in designin*g and building their submarines overseas, unlike Tokyo, which has built submarines only in Japan.

Mr Andrews told parliament this week that one of the bidders — a reference to comments made by DCNS chief executive Sean Costello — had suggested it could do more than 70 per cent of the construction work in Australia.

“That means we’re going to have more jobs, a significant part of that build, perhaps 70-80 per cent of submarines built here in Australia,” the minister said.

Mr Costello said the company could do more than 70 per cent of construction in Australia after building the first boat in France to sort out any problems that might emerge. Each of the bidders must provide three options* for the *submarines: an offshore build, an onshore build or a hybrid build combining the two.

However, the Coalition’s elect*oral vulnerability in South Australia makes an onshore or hybrid build in Adelaide the most likely option.

If South Australian front*bench*er Christopher Pyne is appoin*ted defence minister in this weekend’s ministerial reshuffle, as some have speculated, it could all but guarantee that most or all of the submarines are built in South Australia.

The forthcoming defence white paper is expected to call for eight new submarines with an option* for a further four to replace the navy’s six Collins-class boats from the mid-2020s.

The submarines are expected to cost about $20bn for construct*ion and up to $40bn to maintain throughout their service life.
 
Realistically who in government has any knowledge or experience in there roles? Very very few.

The best one can hope for is that the particular minister in the role they are given are open and willing to listen to those who know what they are talking about and act accordingly.

Based on her past roles she does seem to be good at her job, Finger's crossed her success in her past portfolio's follow's on into defence. In the past she has spent time on parliamentary committees on defence and foreign affair's to she isn't exactly green but rather one of the few in recent times with any basic experience. She has been spoken highly from a number of people about her ability to listen to other's and consider all views. From what I have read I'm actually quite impressed with the choice compared to what we have had.

In regard's to a third AOR I highly dealt the government would get 2 differing design's especially built around the same time frame. To me if they mentioned getting a third one from Korea then it sound's like the Spanish option is no more.
In terms of the AOR, I did notice one significant difference between the two ships. The Navantia ship has a top speed of 21.3 knots and a sustained to speed of 20 knots. The South Korean vessel is only rated at a sustained speed of 18 knots.
 
Realistically who in government has any knowledge or experience in there roles? Very very few.

The best one can hope for is that the particular minister in the role they are given are open and willing to listen to those who know what they are talking about and act accordingly.

Based on her past roles she does seem to be good at her job, Finger's crossed her success in her past portfolio's follow's on into defence. In the past she has spent time on parliamentary committees on defence and foreign affair's to she isn't exactly green but rather one of the few in recent times with any basic experience. She has been spoken highly from a number of people about her ability to listen to other's and consider all views. From what I have read I'm actually quite impressed with the choice compared to what we have had.

In regard's to a third AOR I highly dealt the government would get 2 differing design's especially built around the same time frame. To me if they mentioned getting a third one from Korea then it sound's like the Spanish option is no more.
In terms of the AOR, I did notice one significant difference between the two ships. The Navantia ship has a top speed of 21.3 knots and a sustained top speed of 20 knots. The South Korean vessel is only rated at a sustained speed of 18 knots.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I see Chris Pyne is minister for industry. Hes from SA.

I don't think I would call the Japanese out of contention. I do wonder what their primary aim is. I think its Australia to have a very capable submarine force. Realistically its not in their interests for Australia to have crappy subs.

I don't think the Japanese will go away completely. Japan has just changed their constitution to be able to fight abroad. Even if we go with German subs, I would imagine partnering close with the Japanese would still be possible (even if they aren't building the subs). I would imagine there would still be much discussed.

There is still a million miles to go with this.. A more open PM might actually help the Japanese option as its still not exactly clear to the public what they are offering. I would still be listening to what they have to offer.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Realistically who in government has any knowledge or experience in there roles? Very very few.

The best one can hope for is that the particular minister in the role they are given are open and willing to listen to those who know what they are talking about and act accordingly.

Based on her past roles she does seem to be good at her job, Finger's crossed her success in her past portfolio's follow's on into defence. In the past she has spent time on parliamentary committees on defence and foreign affair's to she isn't exactly green but rather one of the few in recent times with any basic experience. She has been spoken highly from a number of people about her ability to listen to other's and consider all views. From what I have read I'm actually quite impressed with the choice compared to what we have had.

In regard's to a third AOR I highly dealt the government would get 2 differing design's especially built around the same time frame. To me if they mentioned getting a third one from Korea then it sound's like the Spanish option is no more.
Wonder if they considered promoting the assistant minister, Stuart Roberts?
He,s been the A/Defmin since the Abbot election and is an ex Infantry/Intell officer.

Ok, just saw he, now minister for vet affairs.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In terms of the AOR, I did notice one significant difference between the two ships. The Navantia ship has a top speed of 21.3 knots and a sustained to speed of 20 knots. The South Korean vessel is only rated at a sustained speed of 18 knots.

gets back to conops

how often is there a requirement to run at flank/max speed?
the issue is optimum speed and resultant range

what the max speed does tell you is that they're more suited to escort and support vignettes than tagging along with a battlegroup rushing out to a job......

that in itself triggers the "if then goto" scenario of what was in the conops and what a likely escort/TF mix will be
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Haven't read the piece so don't know the context a third AOR has been raised in but I do know that three AEGIRs was an ASC proposal going back to before the 2012/13 replacement project kicked off by the previous government. As initially proposed two ships would have been built in South Korea and outfitted in Australia, while the third would be built entirely locally.

The idea was the South Korean build would ensure timely delivery of the first ship to the RAN as well as containing costs sufficiently to facilitate the local construction of a third ship, preventing an expensive and destructive shipbuilding black hole.

Ship three would have trailed into the end of AWD construction with blocks being allocated to BAE and Forgacs as well as Adelaide. Selection of Cantabria or Berlin could have offered similar potential but I believe BAE were looking to local outfit only so would not have been as beneficial as a whole but BAEs attitude seams to be "I'm alright, stuff the rest of you".

The potential for a timely AOR selection and build to guarantee RAN capability, ship building skill, as well as providing extra growth through capital works on improved facilities, further stimulating the economy with the downturn of the resources sector. This is not hind sight, this is all stuff that was public domain before the last election and ignored when the government changed.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
I see Chris Pyne is minister for industry. Hes from SA.

I don't think I would call the Japanese out of contention. I do wonder what their primary aim is. I think its Australia to have a very capable submarine force. Realistically its not in their interests for Australia to have crappy subs.

I don't think the Japanese will go away completely. Japan has just changed their constitution to be able to fight abroad. Even if we go with German subs, I would imagine partnering close with the Japanese would still be possible (even if they aren't building the subs). I would imagine there would still be much discussed.

There is still a million miles to go with this.. A more open PM might actually help the Japanese option as its still not exactly clear to the public what they are offering. I would still be listening to what they have to offer.
Has been on my mind that originally we had signed on with Japan to develop submarine tech jointly, I'd imagine that would still be a strong possibility even when using a platform other then the Japanese one.

If memory serves TKMS has adapted well in building them and allowing other's to fit in tech with out them being involved, Similar situation could just as easily occur with Australia, Germany and Japan.
 

rockitten

Member
If memory serves TKMS has adapted well in building them and allowing other's to fit in tech with out them being involved, Similar situation could just as easily occur with Australia, Germany and Japan.
If my memory serve me correctly, Israel did that. The "sensitive stuff(s)" on Dolphin II were installed AFTER the sub sailed back to Israel. Turkish Type 214 also have their indigenous combat system (so TKMS only provide the hull and propulsion systems).

What didn't cover in open domain was how extensive the change was and how much premium the customers had paid for that.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
If my memory serve me correctly, Israel did that. The "sensitive stuff(s)" on Dolphin II were installed AFTER the sub sailed back to Israel. Turkish Type 214 also have their indigenous combat system (so TKMS only provide the hull and propulsion systems).

What didn't cover in open domain was how extensive the change was and how much premium the customers had paid for that.
it was in the public domain.

an ex colleague of mine who was a contractor had happy snaps of a IN sub test firing. the images were on the net for about 3 weeks before he pulled them (under advice)

all mods were done by israelis - no foreign contractors involved
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Anyone build model ships in a bottles?

That, in a nutshell, is the principal of outfitting an already consolidated submarine hull, if it doesn't fit through the largest opening and can't be broken-down into components that do fit it doesn't go in at all. Even when it can be broken down the act of doing so (not to forget the need to reassemble, commission, test and certify after) has a very major impact on cost, schedule and risk. Building overseas and outfitting locally would be the most expensive and risky option for submarines and would only ever seriously be considered if there was absolutely no alternative, or maybe in the most brainless political pork barrelling.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Anyone build model ships in a bottles?

That, in a nutshell, is the principal of outfitting an already consolidated submarine hull, if it doesn't fit through the largest opening and can't be broken-down into components that do fit it doesn't go in at all. Even when it can be broken down the act of doing so (not to forget the need to reassemble, commission, test and certify after) has a very major impact on cost, schedule and risk. Building overseas and outfitting locally would be the most expensive and risky option for submarines and would only ever seriously be considered if there was absolutely no alternative, or maybe in the most brainless political pork barrelling.
Whilst I agree with you in regards to competed boats there still could be a workable proposition in building modules overseas and matching units once they arrive onshore. eg a back end Son of Soryu could be delivered complete ready to join an indigenous front end from ASC provided the steel was compatible

I won't add to the endless speculation and commentary though, I'm happy for the CEP to run its course hopefully free from political interference.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
One thing asc does very well is welding, irrespective of what vested interests have to say about special steels etc. joining fully outfitted, prefabricated, pre-tested and certified sections would be a walk in the park for them. To me the politicians have it back to front, the problem has never been fabrication or quality, but the experts brought in and foisted on the organisation, usually after those same experts have done a government funded hatchet job on the organisation. In the late 90s and again now, the way onto ASCs board was to write a critical report on them, favourable reports usually didn't secure further high paying roles.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Submarine Matters: Japanese Submarines – Critical operational life and hull cutting issues

Does ASC has the capability (and equipments)of GATW at the moment? If that post is correct, that will be essential for processing NS110 for our evolved Soryu.

If ASC doesn't have that yet, then all welders, inspectors ....etc may have to be retrained.
NS110 was passed ages ago - and various countries including aust have managed fabrication issues with materials beyond it.

some of those bloggers and editors need to do some more research
 
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