Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[icelord]

I reckon a Bay manned by the RAN, would have a much bigger ships company onboard.

RFA dont class marines, flight crew and alike into ships company.
If we buy the Bay then we'd be looking at around 120 crew min. once you throw in 4-5 Smn Stokers, 3-4 Smn greenies, 6 Smn dibbies billets, 4 Phase 4OOW and so on, you start adding more.
The bigger the ship with more bunks, the better to train crew. Defence has a priority of training for personnel and many ships billets are purely for training. changing the either Tobruk or LPA crew to a bay would see as many transferred as possible.

 

[Todjaeger]

Oiler sizes have got a lot bigger since the Falklands War so comparing the numbers is silly unless you are using tonnage.

Not quite. The number of hulls, as well as tonnage, do indeed matter. While a single very large oiler could potentially provide the same amount of fuel as 2-3 smaller vessels, it would be restricted to single hull. This in turn puts limits on just were RAS can be conducted, since the large oiler can only be in one place at a time, whereas 2-3 smaller vessels can be deployed in different locations.

Additionally, if the oiler is very large (panamax+) there could be restrictions on which ports and passages the vessel can safely navigate, which can put further operational restrictions in the way.

-Cheers

 

[ThePuss]

RFA dont class marines, flight crew and alike into ships company.
If we buy the Bay then we'd be looking at around 120 crew min. once you throw in 4-5 Smn Stokers, 3-4 Smn greenies, 6 Smn dibbies billets, 4 Phase 4OOW and so on, you start adding more.
The bigger the ship with more bunks, the better to train crew. Defence has a priority of training for personnel and many ships billets are purely for training. changing the either Tobruk or LPA crew to a bay would see as many transferred as possible.

I agree that in RAN service a Bay would normally have 120-150 personnel onboard and I think that would be not even include a Flight or LCU crew. This is probably achievable without turning some of the troop berthing in to mess decks as I believe a modern RFA vessel like the bays have single cabins for even the lowest deck swabbie. It's a simple job to turn a single cabin into a double which is still bloody good accommodation by RAN standards.

One point I don't think anybody has broached is what we will operate from the well deck. The Bays operate one LCU MK 10. which is significantly larger (29.7 X 7.4) than a LCM-8 (22.3 X 6.4). I do not know what the dimension of a LCM-1e is, but I think it is the same as a LCM-8. I really doubt that we will will buy or lease a MK10 due to orphan issues so it looks like LCM-8 will operate from the dock, hopefully organically until the LCM-1E come online (probably with an enlarged order). I have been unable to find the dock dimensions of a Bay but I believe one of our LCVP at 13.2 X 3.6 would also probably fit in addition to a LCM-8 as the one photo of the dock I can find it looks quite long. We have four in service with two on Tobby, one on Success and one currently laid up and available.

Google Image Result for http://www.damennaval.com/dynamisch/zoommodule/6_1_LSDA_Bay_Class_2.JPG

Also the Mexeflote's a Bay can carry on it sides are quite interesting. Basically they are powered "Raft's" which can be used as a ferry ( in benign conditions) or as a causeway between a anchored Bay and the beach. This would be very useful in a disaster relief operation, as demonstrated by Largs Bay herself recently in Haiti.

 

[alexsa]

I agree that in RAN service a Bay would normally have 120-150 personnel onboard and I think that would be not even include a Flight or LCU crew.

Why 120 to 150 'base crew' when the ship can be managed by a civilian crew in military operations with 60, which for a merchant ship is a very big crew. From memory for RFA officers alone this provides

Master
3 to 4 bridge watch keeeprs
1 or 2 Radio officers (not somehting the MN uses)
C/E
3 to 4 E/R watch keeping officers.
and a couple of cadets

Agree you will need to add ops staff if you think you need them ....... but more than double the number overall. While the Westralia had more RAN crew that RFA crew (86 v 54) it was still not double.

 

[Pusser01]

I agree that in RAN service a Bay would normally have 120-150 personnel onboard and I think that would be not even include a Flight or LCU crew. This is probably achievable without turning some of the troop berthing in to mess decks as I believe a modern RFA vessel like the bays have single cabins for even the lowest deck swabbie. It's a simple job to turn a single cabin into a double which is still bloody good accommodation by RAN standards.

One point I don't think anybody has broached is what we will operate from the well deck. The Bays operate one LCU MK 10. which is significantly larger (29.7 X 7.4) than a LCM-8 (22.3 X 6.4). I do not know what the dimension of a LCM-1e is, but I think it is the same as a LCM-8. I really doubt that we will will buy or lease a MK10 due to orphan issues so it looks like LCM-8 will operate from the dock, hopefully organically until the LCM-1E come online (probably with an enlarged order). I have been unable to find the dock dimensions of a Bay but I believe one of our LCVP at 13.2 X 3.6 would also probably fit in addition to a LCM-8 as the one photo of the dock I can find it look quite long. We have four in service with two on Tobby, one on Success and one currently laid up and available.

Google Image Result for http://www.damennaval.com/dynamisch/zoommodule/6_1_LSDA_Bay_Class_2.JPG

Also the Mexeflote's a Bay can carry on it sides are quite interesting. Basically they are powered "Raft's" which can be used as a ferry ( in benign conditions) or as a cause way between a anchored Bay and the beach. This would be very useful in a disaster relief operation as demonstrated by Largs Bay her self recently in Haiti

The fourth LCVP currently operates out of Cairns.
We used to have an equivelent to the Mexeflote, NLE (Naval Lighterage Equipment), two of which named Caspor and Pollux used to be hang off the sides of Tobruk like Mexeflotes. Don't know is they are still in existence, was last aware of them being used in the early 90's bridging between Tobruk and JB.

Was also wondering if the LCM2000's with strengthening could be used in the drydock?
Cheers

 

[alexsa]

Additionally, if the oiler is very large (panamax+) there could be restrictions on which ports and passages the vessel can safely navigate, which can put further operational restrictions in the way.

-Cheers

For the uninitiated Oil Tankers (ignoring chemical and gas) come in two basic types. Crude and product tankers. A product tanker carries refined products, such as petrol, gasolene, aviation fuel/kerosene. it is tis type that wouel be used as an AOR not the crude carrier. product tankers tend to be smaller but can be up to Panamax (there may be Aframax or suezmax product carriers but I doubt there woul be many if at all). Handysize or Handymax would be your choice for an AOR otherwise size and draft become and issue as Todjaeger indicated.

Sizes are drived by dimensions (particularly Panamax and Suezmax) but sizes are generally:

HANDYSIZE TANKER = 20,000 - 30,000 DWT
HANDYMAX TANKER = approx 45,000 DWT
PANAMAX TANKER = approx 79,000 DWT
AFRAMAX TANKER = between 79,000 (or 80000 dependin on who you talk to) - 120,000 DWT
SUEZMAXTANKER = between 120,000 - 180,000 DWT
V.L.C.C. (Crude carrier only) = between 200,000 - 300,000 DWT
U.L.C.C. (Crude carrier only) = over 300,000 DWT

 

[aussienscale]

I think the 120 ish mark for a Bay for the RAN would seem about right, I can't remember what thread it was but Abraham indicated that new lighterage will be aquired under the White Paper

We will just have to use what we have from the dock for now, just a note (unless I have missed it ?) The LCM-1E has not been selected, with many better options out there than them, such as
BMT Defence Services - Fast Landing Craft

 

[ThePuss]

Why 120 to 150 'base crew' when the ship can be managed by a civilian crew in military operations with 60, which for a merchant ship is a very big crew. From memory for RFA officers alone this provides

Master
3 to 4 bridge watch keeeprs
1 or 2 Radio officers (not somehting the MN uses)
C/E
3 to 4 E/R watch keeping officers.
and a couple of cadets

Agree you will need to add ops staff if you think you need them ....... but more than double the number overall. While the Westralia had more RAN crew that RFA crew (86 v 54) it was still not double.

Because the RAN manning model is very different to the RFA model. MV Delos had a crew of 16 flying the Red ensign, flying the White ensign as the HMAS Sirius she has a crew of 65+

You mention that the a RFA vessel has 1/2 Radio officers (plus an unspecified amount of communication ratings) In the RAN we do not really have an equivalent of radio officers (Every ship has a Ships Communication Officer or SCO but this is very much a ancillary or "On the side job" for one of the Officers Of the Watch or OOW). But what we do have is 1 Chief, 2 PO's 3/4 Leading hands and 8/10 Able Seamen. If you add that up that equals 14/17 personnel (Not including the SCO) just to man the Comm's department and I'm sure nearly 1/3 of the crew of a Bay are not in their Comm's department.

As mentioned by Icelord significant number of positions onboard a RAN Ship are dedicated training billets. You mention that RFA have some cadet officer onboard (Which would be the equivalent of our seamanship Junior Officers Under Training or JOUT's). But in the RAN a vessel of 160 odd would have around 20 or more trainees drawn from every department. Also a Bay in RAN service would be our training platform to get our personnel experienced in operating a modern amphibious dock so we would have extra crew on top of normal to gain skills in this new operating environment.

Also the RFA crew of 60 in a Bay does not include personnel from British Army's 17th Port and Maritime Regiment who do the role of our Ship Army Department (S.A.D) which numbers up to 20 personnel and we consider them part of ships company and thus they are included in crew numbers.

When we need to do Force Protection (FP) in the RAN we do it ourselves, In the RFA they do not as they get supported by P SQD of the Royal Marines Fleet Protection Group who do this role for them.

RFA ships are meant to be tier 2 ships, i,e only approach the beachhead after the first wave of RN manned amphibs have secure it. The British disregarded this basic principal in the Falkland's and they paid the price for it. I do not intend to cast dispersions on the RFA for as far the Merchant Navy they are the best there is. But they are not trained to the level of RN/RAN personnel (At least in the areas of DC/War fighting). I watched a video of a Iraqi PB catching fire inside a Bays dock and the attempts to put out the fire where quite hilarious. You need a lot of people for effective damage control and 60 personnel on a 16000 t vessel does not come close.

RFA / RAN = Chalk / Cheese

 

[StoresBasher]

Because the RAN manning model is very different to the RFA model. MV Delos had a crew of 16 flying the Red ensign, flying the White ensign as the HMAS Sirius she has a crew of 65+

You mention that the a RFA vessel has 1/2 Radio officers (plus an unspecified amount of communication ratings) In the RAN we do not really have an equivalent of radio officers (Every ship has a Ships Communication Officer or SCO but this is very much a ancillary or "On the side job" for one of the Officers Of the Watch or OOW). But what we do have is 1 Chief, 2 PO's 3/4 Leading hands and 8/10 Able Seamen. If you add that up that equals 14/17 personnel (Not including the SCO) just to man the Comm's department and I'm sure nearly 1/3 of the crew of a Bay are not in their Comm's department.

As mentioned by Icelord significant number of positions onboard a RAN Ship are dedicated training billets. You mention that RFA have some cadet officer onboard (Which would be the equivalent of our seamanship Junior Officers Under Training or JOUT's). But in the RAN a vessel of 160 odd would have around 20 or more trainees drawn from every department. Also a Bay in RAN service would be our training platform to get our personnel experienced in operating a modern amphibious dock so we would have extra crew on top of normal to gain skills in this new operating environment.

Also the RFA crew of 60 in a Bay does not include personnel from British Army's 17 Port and Maritime Regiment who do the role of our Ship Army Department which numbers up to 20 personnel and we consider them part of ships company and thus they are included in crew numbers.

When we need to do Force Protection (FP) in the RAN we do it ourselves, In the RFA they do not as they get supported by P SQD of the Royal Marines Fleet Protection Group who do this role for them.

RFA ships are meant to be tier 2 ships, i,e only approach the beachhead after the first wave of RN manned amphibs have secure it. The British disregarded this basic principal in the Falkland's and they paid the price for it. I do not intend to cast dispersions on the RFA for as far the Merchant Navy they are the best there is. But they are not trained to the level of RN/RAN personnel (At least in the areas of DC/War fighting). I watched a video of a Iraqi PB catching fire inside a Bays dock and the attempts to put out the fire where quite hilarious. You need a lot of people for effective damage control and 60 personnel on a 16000 t vessel does not come close.

RFA / RAN = Chalk / Cheese

Even working on minimum manning, for a RAN Bay, this is how I'd see it.
Officers
CO, XO, Nav, SO, EO, WEEO, DMEO, DSO, OOW x 6, say 6 misc
Approximately 20 Officers

Exec Department
CPOB, 2 x POB, 6 x LSBM, 20 SMN/ABBM = 29
CPOCSM, POCSS, 2 x LSCSO, 4 SMN/ABCSO = 8
CPOCIS, 2 x POCIS, 3 x LSCIS, 10 X SMN/ABCIS = 16

Supply
CPOSN, POSN, 2 x LSSN, 2 x ABSN = 6
CPOWTR, LSWTR, 2 x SMN/ANWTR = 4
CPOSTD, 2 x LSSTD, 6 x SMN/ABSTD = 9
CPOCK, 3 x LSCK, 4 x ABCK = 8
CPOMED, LSMED, 2 x ABMED = 4

Engineering
CPOET, 2 x POET, 4 x LSET, 8 x SMN/ABET = 15
CPOMT x 3, 4 x POMT, 8 x LSMT, 30 x SMN/ABMT = 45

SAD
15-20 Army personnel.

So I reckon at least 170 RAN cew

 

[icelord]

Even working on minimum manning, for a RAN Bay, this is how I'd see it.
Officers
CO, XO, Nav, SO, EO, WEEO, DMEO, DSO, OOW x 6, say 6 misc
Approximately 20 Officers

Exec Department
CPOB, 2 x POB, 6 x LSBM, 20 SMN/ABBM = 29
CPOCSM, POCSS, 2 x LSCSO, 4 SMN/ABCSO = 8
CPOCIS, 2 x POCIS, 3 x LSCIS, 10 X SMN/ABCIS = 16

Supply
CPOSN, POSN, 2 x LSSN, 2 x ABSN = 6
CPOWTR, LSWTR, 2 x SMN/ANWTR = 4
CPOSTD, 2 x LSSTD, 6 x SMN/ABSTD = 9
CPOCK, 3 x LSCK, 4 x ABCK = 8
CPOMED, LSMED, 2 x ABMED = 4

Engineering
CPOET, 2 x POET, 4 x LSET, 8 x SMN/ABET = 15
CPOMT x 3, 4 x POMT, 8 x LSMT, 30 x SMN/ABMT = 45

SAD
15-20 Army personnel.

So I reckon at least 170 RAN cew

With NGN...HALVE IT!:lol3

 

[alexsa]

You mention that the a RFA vessel has 1/2 Radio officers (plus an unspecified amount of communication ratings) In the RAN we do not really have an equivalent of radio officers (Every ship has a Ships Communication Officer or SCO but this is very much a ancillary or "On the side job" for one of the Officers Of the Watch or OOW). But what we do have is 1 Chief, 2 PO's 3/4 Leading hands and 8/10 Able Seamen. If you add that up that equals 14/17 personnel (Not including the SCO) just to man the Comm's department and I'm sure nearly 1/3 of the crew of a Bay are not in their Comm's department.


RFA / RAN = Chalk / Cheese

I am very familiar with naval manning and the functions undertaken. I was simply giving an idea of the numbers of officesr on an RFA. I reiterate that in a period where the navy is trying to minimise crews and increase of mre than double what is already a large crew for this type of vessle appears to be overdoing it.

Enough said

 

[alexsa]

Even working on minimum manning, for a RAN Bay, this is how I'd see it.
Officers
CO, XO, Nav, SO, EO, WEEO, DMEO, DSO, OOW x 6, say 6 misc
Approximately 20 Officers

Exec Department
CPOB, 2 x POB, 6 x LSBM, 20 SMN/ABBM = 29
CPOCSM, POCSS, 2 x LSCSO, 4 SMN/ABCSO = 8
CPOCIS, 2 x POCIS, 3 x LSCIS, 10 X SMN/ABCIS = 16

Supply
CPOSN, POSN, 2 x LSSN, 2 x ABSN = 6
CPOWTR, LSWTR, 2 x SMN/ANWTR = 4
CPOSTD, 2 x LSSTD, 6 x SMN/ABSTD = 9
CPOCK, 3 x LSCK, 4 x ABCK = 8
CPOMED, LSMED, 2 x ABMED = 4

Engineering
CPOET, 2 x POET, 4 x LSET, 8 x SMN/ABET = 15
CPOMT x 3, 4 x POMT, 8 x LSMT, 30 x SMN/ABMT = 45

SAD
15-20 Army personnel.

So I reckon at least 170 RAN cew

Honestly it would be cheaper to run it with Merchant crew even with a 1 to 1 leave cycle. This is not a complicate vessel.

 

[ThePuss]

I am very familiar with naval manning and the functions undertaken. I was simply giving an idea of the numbers of officesr on an RFA. I reiterate that in a period where the navy is trying to minimise crews and increase of mre than double what is already a large crew for this type of vessle appears to be overdoing it.

Enough said

ok cheers

 

[StoresBasher]

Honestly it would be cheaper to run it with Merchant crew even with a 1 to 1 leave cycle. This is not a complicate vessel.

It might well be cheaper, but the RAN will man it with service personnel.
With some 200 odd people looking for a ship, if one of the LPA's go, there will be no shortage of available crew.

 

[LancasterBomber]

Alexsa you asked me for my reasoning for my estimate of the crewing of a RAN Bay, which I gave in what I believe was a quite in depth manner. You then gave a one paragraph response addressing just one of my points and then signed off with a very snide last sentence. I feel this is quite rude to a fellow defense professional or to any member of this forum.

I concur.

Your post in response to alexsa was outstanding. I think his response was less than outstanding.

Could we operate a Bay bare bones? Ofcourse we could.

Are we entrusted by the Australian public to fight and win in the maritime environment today and into the future? Yes we are.

To that end national security is very much a 'journey' not a destination. We are always 'on the move' simultaneously meeting the security needs of the next 24 hours whilst continuing our investment in our future capability to meet that need (i.e training billets).

In peacetime you run your ships and boats 'fat'. In wartime you run them 'lean and mean'. What seperates an average Navy from an outstanding one is 'depth'.

Without depth we have the potential to become brittle and timid in our wartime strategic planning.

Personally I think ThePuss was spot on NGN or no NGN.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Pause this issue folks.

Consider some self editing in the interim.

There is some traffic in here thats going out of context

 

[Abraham Gubler]

CDG have allready done a crew estimate for the Bay class LSD: 137 Navy, 48 Army.

 

[StoresBasher]

CDG have allready done a crew estimate for the Bay class LSD: 137 Navy, 48 Army.

Wow that is a lot of Army.
Currently we have 22 SAD on Manoora.

 

[alexsa]

I appear to have been read as being snide, this was certainly not the intention and if it was taken that way please accept my appologies. What I was trying to focus on is that if this ship eventually ends up being the sealift ship does the base crew (not including Army or flight operations crew or crw of landing craft) really need to be 120 to 150. It appears the navy thinks so. so be it and that ws the reason a pulled out of the discussion.

I was not deriding the rigor of the information provided by the Puss but in a world where DDG1000 will be manned by 180 persons and we have retentions and recruitment issues perhaps a leaner arrangement could be looked at particulalry where the vessel can be run as a sealift ship with less 'base crew'.

I know the delos/Sirius isue ahs been raised but in that case the function of the ship changed and an increase is only to be expected. In this case the ship is functioning as designed.

Again insult was no meant but having lived on both sides of the fence I know the capabilites of each type of crew hence the comment..

 

[ThePuss]

The fourth LCVP currently operates out of Cairns.
We used to have an equivelent to the Mexeflote, NLE (Naval Lighterage Equipment), two of which named Caspor and Pollux used to be hang off the sides of Tobruk like Mexeflotes. Don't know is they are still in existence, was last aware of them being used in the early 90's bridging between Tobruk and JB.

Was also wondering if the LCM2000's with strengthening could be used in the drydock?
Cheers

Cheers for the info mate, I would be intersted to find out what the Cairns based LCVP is used for?.

I do remember in the dim dark recesses of my mind Toby with NLE's strapped to her sides (But from pickies from way before I joined up....which in two days = 12 years.....I'm feeling old ). Out of interest was the NLE's powered?

As to the LCM 2000's they are laid up at a civy boat shop next to CNB. After 10 years of sitting on hard stands the ADF must not want them, Civy service is the best they can look forward too. If you are interested you can see them "High and Dry" on Goggle Earth.