Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates
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Interesting to see such an article on the RAN site. Doesn't that make the RAN's intentions official, that up upgunning, or rather "upweaponing" the Arafura in the future? If we do, we'll get up to 20 missile boats, albeit slow ones. (12 OPV, 8 hydrographic/mine hunters = 20)internal reviews happen on a constant basis, might happen, may not, it all gives guidance on a way forward, and by studying and debating these internally you can come up with different solutions to the problem, should always be encouraged to stave off group think.
Cheers
That would be exciting to see. I hate that I won't be alive to see the fully rejuvenated RAN by 2050.
It wasn’t “official”.
The paper was written by a junior Lieutenant who serves as the XO on an ACPB.
Despite that it’s good for such discussions to be had and good on him for contributing.
cdxbow
Well-Known Member
Tea leaf reading. I hope you are correct.
The Harpoons as suggested in the article are a good match for the Camcopters range. The fact they have used cut down combat systems from our main combatants suggest some folks were considering a future with something more than 'constabulary duties' in mind.
I recently got a new phone with all sorts of photo/video options eg time lapse, high frame rate video capture. The most intriguing was the time forward option, I set it to 11, then took a snap down at the wharves and I was very surprised to see this was recorded.
A busy time for HMAS Canberra and HMAS Ballarat.
www.defenceconnect.com.au
Following on from Talisman Sabre 21, HMAS Canberra and Ballarat are conducting further exercises with US forces in the Western Pacific. An RAAF P-8A Poseidon is also supporting the US-led Large Scale Global Exercise 21.
HMA Ships Ballarat, Canberra join US-led exercise
The RAN vessels are set to participate in a large multi-national military exercise in the Western Pacific Ocean. Amphibious assault ship HMAS Canberra and Anzac Class frigate HMAS Ballarat have j
Following on from Talisman Sabre 21, HMAS Canberra and Ballarat are conducting further exercises with US forces in the Western Pacific. An RAAF P-8A Poseidon is also supporting the US-led Large Scale Global Exercise 21.
U.S. Indo-Pacific Command will conduct Large Scale Global Exercise 21
CAMP SMITH, Hawaii – U.S. Indo-Pacific Command will conduct Large Scale Global Exercise 21 (LSGE21) from Aug. 2-27, 2021. LSGE21 is a Department of Defense exercise executed by U.S. Indo-Pacific
www.pacom.mil
It seems that the ongoing shipbuilding plan has gotten off to a poor start with even the construction of new OPVs falling behind schedule and doubts about the capacity of the industry to undertake new projects such as building a new vessel for the Pacific Step-up plan. The government may have to look overseas to build that ship.
The time may be coming when we have to consider having at least some ships or subs built overseas in order to meet the threats coming over the next decade or so. It is clearly going to take a long time to get the local shipbuilding industry up to speed and time is a luxury we may not have.
Troubled naval shipbuilding projects set to prompt another Defence Department shake-up (msn.com)
The time may be coming when we have to consider having at least some ships or subs built overseas in order to meet the threats coming over the next decade or so. It is clearly going to take a long time to get the local shipbuilding industry up to speed and time is a luxury we may not have.
Troubled naval shipbuilding projects set to prompt another Defence Department shake-up (msn.com)
We'll see. It's MSM and ABC at that. Minister Dutton has ordered all Defence Department personnel that they are to seek his permission before speaking to media or any outsiders regarding Defence matters. In this case it could be journos interviewing journos.
IMO NSM would be a better fit for such a vessel going forward.
But the advantage of Harpoon is we already have (shitloads of) them. They are still a capable enough missile (eg. the US is putting them back on submarines). They are already integrated into 9LV. While not exactly free, it would be relatively low cost and low risk, and quick to acquire and install that kind of capability. With minimal ongoing costs. Useful for Land attack and maritime strike.
It won't make them into a corvette or a Frigate, but it does give them significantly more capability. I don't see how anyone would see that as a win.
I guess in exploring improving capability, if there is any possibility for tube launched torpedos. While not an ideal fit, could offer another platform for launches during ASW events. We may be able to move the older but still useful MU90's onto these, thus only carrying one type of torpedo on other ships. Again could be fitted as needed, already integrated with combat systems and cued from other platforms. Or possibly able to deploy stonefish mines.
I think this is probably the early phases of the OPV schedule being a bit ambitious. We have ships being built, at two different sites, one a greenfields, one as a "fill in" work project with no incentive to speed it up, not only that, they are first of a class. IMO the OPV project isn't at huge risk, haven't they already got four hulls well underway. IMO the biggest issue is when we are at full rate production and we start spamming them out and don't have follow on projects hot and ready to go.
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Meanwhile in the working Navy, HMAS Supply has completed her first RAS with HMAS Anzac (Image source - ADF Image Library)
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Think it might be Supply mate, Success got turned into razor-blades
Absolutely spot on, that'll learn me for watching an old RAS vid at the same time as posting.Think it might be Supply mate, Success got turned into razor-blades
I think the OPVs have potential operating as motherships for UUV, AUV, ASV and USV. It has a substantial flight deck, mission deck, stern ramp and davits. In fact until the Hunter class enters service it may be the best option for operating unmanned vehicles.
This discussion does suggest that as the strategic environment changes then the thinking around what is needed may also be changing.
Is the requirement transitioning to something more like 8 K130-equivalent & 6 mine hunters - possibly supported by a small number of OPVs?
Thoughts?
Massive
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
What would Australia be looking at in a Corvette/Coastal Defence Ship?
The way i see it the major concern is Submarines launching Missiles both Ballistic and Cruise or laying Mines. So any Corvette is going to need a decent ASW capability and that is going to mean a MH-60R* Helicopter, LWTs, and a Towed array Sonar. Can’t see ASuW or area AD being a major factor, so maybe a 57mm Gun and a Self Defence AD system such as Sea RAM* or CAMM*. Would need decent endurance, some ability to carry, launch and recover USUVs, SF Units.
*or next gen equiv.
The way i see it the major concern is Submarines launching Missiles both Ballistic and Cruise or laying Mines. So any Corvette is going to need a decent ASW capability and that is going to mean a MH-60R* Helicopter, LWTs, and a Towed array Sonar. Can’t see ASuW or area AD being a major factor, so maybe a 57mm Gun and a Self Defence AD system such as Sea RAM* or CAMM*. Would need decent endurance, some ability to carry, launch and recover USUVs, SF Units.
*or next gen equiv.
Boagrius
Well-Known Member
So in other words an ANZAC Frigate?
EDIT: Not to be a pest, but it goes to show how events have overtaken the ANZAC's growth potential...
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Todjaeger
Potstirrer
There are a few questions which keep popping up in my mind whenever someone starts to bring up the ideas of up-gunning the OPV's, or building some sort of corvette or light/patrol frigate class based off the OPV's.
One of the questions of course involves costs. How much is this supposed to cost, where is the money coming from, who is paying for it, and what is being underfunded or left unfunded, etc?
The next question is, who is supposed to be crewing these OPV-turned corvettes? If such vessels are suppose to have a more useful wartime role, then not only will the vessel require more than a 40 mm gun, but the vessel will also require additional crew who can both operate and support the additional systems. Take sonar for instance. If the MFU's and some sort of ASW focused OPV or FS were to both be in service in numbers, then the RAN might need to double the number of personnel trained to effectively operate and maintain the sonar systems. While I am confident that the RAN could successfully increase the number of personnel if needed, it would be a task which requires time, and further funding which would just increase the costs of the capability further.
Next up would be the question of where would or could such vessels be built? AFAIK Australia does not have sufficient naval shipbuilding capabilities to fulfill both the current OPV and frigate orders, have capacity to also meet the sub order which is supposed to be coming, and also fit in ordering an additional class of vessels. The closest option might be for the OPV build to get shelved in favour of a corvette build, but that is still something that would take years to carry out and would leave the patrol forces short of suitable vessels. That would be acceptable in wartime, but not so much in peace, which we still have.
Lastly, we come to just what would be needed to both be effective, be able to be included into a vessel of the appropriate size, and the desire work to achieve that. The more combat systems, sensors and weapons included in a vessel, then either the shorter the vessel's range and endurance, speed, or the need to increase the size of the vessel to be able to fit the desired systems. So some thought would be needed regarding not just want was needed and wanted, but also what vessel designs could fit the desired systems. If the RAN desired, I am certain that a slightly modified, ASW-focused version of the MEKO 200 could be designed and built for RAN service, but by then one it back to talking more about expanding the surface major warships fleet. Minor warships, at least those which would be more than just extra targets, run into some hard limitations given the operation ranges and potential threats RAN vessels could encounter in a wartime situation.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Close but not quite, doesn’t have the ASuW or AD capabilities of an Anzac.So in other words an ANZAC Frigate?
EDIT: Not to be a pest, but it goes to show how events have overtaken the ANZAC's growth potential...
Totally agree, I’m not in anyway proposing Australia should be building a class of Corvettes/Coastal Defence Ships just an exercise in what a modern RAN Corvette may look like and i think it would be very much centred around the ASW Mission as the Australian mainlands greatest vulnerability is against Submarines. And definitely not proposing turning a OPV into a Corvette.
HMAS Canberra and Ballarat participate in US Large Scale Global Exercise 21 (LSGE 21), with USS America Expeditionary Strike Group in the Western Pacific 12 AUG 21.
www.militarynews.com
USS America Expeditionary Strike Group participates in combined and joint battle problem
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