Royal Australian Navy Discussions and Updates

[Stampede]

There are a few questions which keep popping up in my mind whenever someone starts to bring up the ideas of up-gunning the OPV's, or building some sort of corvette or light/patrol frigate class based off the OPV's.

One of the questions of course involves costs. How much is this supposed to cost, where is the money coming from, who is paying for it, and what is being underfunded or left unfunded, etc?

The next question is, who is supposed to be crewing these OPV-turned corvettes? If such vessels are suppose to have a more useful wartime role, then not only will the vessel require more than a 40 mm gun, but the vessel will also require additional crew who can both operate and support the additional systems. Take sonar for instance. If the MFU's and some sort of ASW focused OPV or FS were to both be in service in numbers, then the RAN might need to double the number of personnel trained to effectively operate and maintain the sonar systems. While I am confident that the RAN could successfully increase the number of personnel if needed, it would be a task which requires time, and further funding which would just increase the costs of the capability further.

Next up would be the question of where would or could such vessels be built? AFAIK Australia does not have sufficient naval shipbuilding capabilities to fulfill both the current OPV and frigate orders, have capacity to also meet the sub order which is supposed to be coming, and also fit in ordering an additional class of vessels. The closest option might be for the OPV build to get shelved in favour of a corvette build, but that is still something that would take years to carry out and would leave the patrol forces short of suitable vessels. That would be acceptable in wartime, but not so much in peace, which we still have.

Lastly, we come to just what would be needed to both be effective, be able to be included into a vessel of the appropriate size, and the desire work to achieve that. The more combat systems, sensors and weapons included in a vessel, then either the shorter the vessel's range and endurance, speed, or the need to increase the size of the vessel to be able to fit the desired systems. So some thought would be needed regarding not just want was needed and wanted, but also what vessel designs could fit the desired systems. If the RAN desired, I am certain that a slightly modified, ASW-focused version of the MEKO 200 could be designed and built for RAN service, but by then one it back to talking more about expanding the surface major warships fleet. Minor warships, at least those which would be more than just extra targets, run into some hard limitations given the operation ranges and potential threats RAN vessels could encounter in a wartime situation.

It is expected that all twelve Arafura Class vessels will be in service before the first of the Hunters hit the water.
With the commitment to acquire an addition eight Arafura's to fulfil the Mine / Survey role and bringing forward their build schedule, they will also be in service before the first of the Hunters hit the water.

No fantasy fleets so far

The Hunters and the Attack class will not start to provide a service until the mid 2030's and that's a best case scenario.

No fantasy fleets so far

Our fleet as is with the introduction the Arafura Class is our fleet going forward to the mid 30's.

I do get the questions of limitations of the Arafura class and the questions of cost and time.
I also see opportunity and need.

Put all the constabulary bollocks for the OPV's in the bin when even the most limited of confrontation is encountered.
Our limited numbers of major fleet units will be hard pressed to perform the wide range of tasks asked of them in this environment, made worse when they are tasked to do the lighter roles that should of been performed by a corvette sized vessel.

So do we want to build 20 x 1800t "harbour harlot"s restricted to port unable to venture to sea?
Or do we actually take the opportunity that they are the constant in our future fleet that provides the best opportunity in the short term to add fire power and options to the fleet.

Yes the Arafura's are not a Corvette, but they have much more potential than being a under gunned OPV.

If the Geo political situation is as dire as the government suggests as reflected in the Strategic Defence Review, then investment in the OPV's makes a lot of sense.

Not a fantasy fleet and yes we do have the money to make it a reality.


Regards S


PS - Was it eighty years ago we had most of our southern and east coast shipping confined to port as enemy submarines were creating havoc to all that ventured out to sea.
That was with technology of 8 decades ago.
What would that scenario look like today?

 

[Wombat000]

Hello all.
WRT the question of a light weight corvette being mentioned.
IMHO, I think a number of this type would be a coastal/SLOC security game changer. I think OPFOR subs must feel that the territory is very hazardous.

an embarked MH-60 would be ideal, but I wonder if it’s essential?
I think the ability/method to deploy sonar buoys at distance and the ability to engage contacts at distance is the standard.
(sonar buoy numbers required must be astronomical)

I’m unsure how you could presently place a bouy at perimeter distances, but an ASROC-like system could perhaps be the solution to engage the contacts at those ranges.

this would provide a smaller corvette-like ASW capability, wouldn’t it?

food for thought.

 

[Todjaeger]

Yes the Arafura's are not a Corvette, but they have much more potential than being a under gunned OPV.

If the Geo political situation is as dire as the government suggests as reflected in the Strategic Defence Review, then investment in the OPV's makes a lot of sense.

Not a fantasy fleet and yes we do have the money to make it a reality.

I personally tend to disagree about both the potential for the Arafura-class being more than an "under gunned OPV", and that Australia has the money to make it a reality.

With the Arafura-class having been designed as an OPV, albeit one with a more capable CMS and possibly electronics/sensor fitout that I would consider normal for an OPV, then certain limitations are essentially designed right in. It might be possible for some rather modest improvements to be made in terms of weapons fit out, but not IMO sufficient to permit one to go into "harms way". Without requiring a significant redesign, the 40 mm gun could probably be changed to a non-deck penetrating 57 mm, and there might be appropriate spaces which could be reinforced to permit a Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS or possibly even something like SeaRAM, if the RAN ever were to adopt RAM in the first place. There might also be a place install quad sets of AShM like Harpoon, but IMO another platform which can launch AShM is not really as important a capability as ASW or the ability to contribute to air defense.

In order to really manage something like that, either new kit which is not current in service with the RAN (or ADF for that matter) would need to be adopted and then fitted onto the modified OPV's, or the OPV's themselves would require some fairly involved redesign work. Taking a vessel which was not designed with something like a Mk 41 VLS, and then fitting one in, would involve redesign of the superstructure or hull, and the rearrangement of internal compartments. Incidentally that is one of the issues which kept cropping up whenever anyone would suggest up-gunning the RNZN's Protector-class OPV's. The compartments immediately beneath the Typhoon mounting there would need to be changed to either be sufficient to support a larger, non-deck penetrating gun, or enable deck penetration for some other type gun. Any suggestions of changing the fitout or an Arafura-class is going to run into similar issues which require redesign.

Also worth keeping in mind is the question of whether or not the OPV was designed with the kind of damage control and survivability that is more commonly found in major warships? If not, then this would be another area in need of redesign otherwise such vessels would be at greater risk during hostilities.

Now, how quickly could this redesign take place? I honestly would not be surprised if time required took a year or two to complete. Look at how long it took the redesign for the upgraded ANZAC-class frigates to be finished. Please note, I am not referring to how long it has taken for these upgrades to be done across the fleet, but how long and how many changes had to be made to an existing design.

Once the design re-work, or IMO likely a more efficient option would be to just hold a competition for a new corvette class, was all completed, then orders for the new or redesigned vessel could be placed, as well as for the needed pieces of kit like beyond what is currently planned for the OPV's are they are now. Once again, we are back to looking at a timeline of needing several years to accomplish things, unless much of this work has already been completed. With a timeline likely taking several years, money becomes an issue since while some things might be able to be expedited to a degree with extra funding, at a certain point it will not matter how much money gets waved around, things just cannot be done faster. As it currently stands Nuship Arafura was laid down 10 May 2019, but is not expected in RAN service until some time in 2022 and that is with the design as it exists now. If more, and more combat capable vessels were deemed necessary for the RAN, then they would likely have needed to be ordered several years (or more) ago, if they are supposed to see service within the next five to ten years.

 

[Todjaeger]

Hello all.
WRT the question of a light weight corvette being mentioned.
IMHO, I think a number of this type would be a coastal/SLOC security game changer. I think OPFOR subs must feel that the territory is very hazardous.

an embarked MH-60 would be ideal, but I wonder if it’s essential?
I think the ability/method to deploy sonar buoys at distance and the ability to engage contacts at distance is the standard.
(sonar buoy numbers required must be astronomical)

I’m unsure how you could presently place a bouy at perimeter distances, but an ASROC-like system could perhaps be the solution to engage the contacts at those ranges.

this would provide a smaller corvette-like ASW capability, wouldn’t it?

food for thought.

While yes, ASW ops would require some sort of ability to have sonar where needed, as well as the ability to get ordnance on target. That is really where aircraft come into play as the primary elements of surface ASW as I understand it. Aircraft can drop the sonobuoys, particularly to form an array which monitors an area, and can then drop LWT's and/or depth bombs to engage a contact. A missile system like ASROC is certainly capable of delivering ordnance a distance away from a ship, but IIRC that is only in the neightbourhood of ~20 km away from the vessel, while helicopters or fixed-wing aircraft can cover a much greater distance. Further, ASROC or VL-ASROC require a launch system of some size or a decent sized VLS, since some of these missiles are close to 5 m in length.

Not sure if a missile system has ever been developed to deploy sonobuoys away from a host ship, so that would have to be developed before the RAN could adopt it. Another issue which would likely need addressing is whether or not the corvette-like ASW was "quiet" enough, and would likely require some redesign and mitigation work in order to quiet the hull.

 

[CJR]

Not sure if a missile system has ever been developed to deploy sonobuoys away from a host ship, so that would have to be developed before the RAN could adopt it.

Nulka; a sonar bouy and some gaffer tape?

 

[alexsa]

I personally tend to disagree about both the potential for the Arafura-class being more than an "under gunned OPV", and that Australia has the money to make it a reality.

With the Arafura-class having been designed as an OPV, albeit one with a more capable CMS and possibly electronics/sensor fitout that I would consider normal for an OPV, then certain limitations are essentially designed right in. It might be possible for some rather modest improvements to be made in terms of weapons fit out, but not IMO sufficient to permit one to go into "harms way". Without requiring a significant redesign, the 40 mm gun could probably be changed to a non-deck penetrating 57 mm, and there might be appropriate spaces which could be reinforced to permit a Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS or possibly even something like SeaRAM, if the RAN ever were to adopt RAM in the first place. There might also be a place install quad sets of AShM like Harpoon, but IMO another platform which can launch AShM is not really as important a capability as ASW or the ability to contribute to air defense.

In order to really manage something like that, either new kit which is not current in service with the RAN (or ADF for that matter) would need to be adopted and then fitted onto the modified OPV's, or the OPV's themselves would require some fairly involved redesign work. Taking a vessel which was not designed with something like a Mk 41 VLS, and then fitting one in, would involve redesign of the superstructure or hull, and the rearrangement of internal compartments. Incidentally that is one of the issues which kept cropping up whenever anyone would suggest up-gunning the RNZN's Protector-class OPV's. The compartments immediately beneath the Typhoon mounting there would need to be changed to either be sufficient to support a larger, non-deck penetrating gun, or enable deck penetration for some other type gun. Any suggestions of changing the fitout or an Arafura-class is going to run into similar issues which require redesign.

Also worth keeping in mind is the question of whether or not the OPV was designed with the kind of damage control and survivability that is more commonly found in major warships? If not, then this would be another area in need of redesign otherwise such vessels would be at greater risk during hostilities.

Now, how quickly could this redesign take place? I honestly would not be surprised if time required took a year or two to complete. Look at how long it took the redesign for the upgraded ANZAC-class frigates to be finished. Please note, I am not referring to how long it has taken for these upgrades to be done across the fleet, but how long and how many changes had to be made to an existing design.

Once the design re-work, or IMO likely a more efficient option would be to just hold a competition for a new corvette class, was all completed, then orders for the new or redesigned vessel could be placed, as well as for the needed pieces of kit like beyond what is currently planned for the OPV's are they are now. Once again, we are back to looking at a timeline of needing several years to accomplish things, unless much of this work has already been completed. With a timeline likely taking several years, money becomes an issue since while some things might be able to be expedited to a degree with extra funding, at a certain point it will not matter how much money gets waved around, things just cannot be done faster. As it currently stands Nuship Arafura was laid down 10 May 2019, but is not expected in RAN service until some time in 2022 and that is with the design as it exists now. If more, and more combat capable vessels were deemed necessary for the RAN, then they would likely have needed to be ordered several years (or more) ago, if they are supposed to see service within the next five to ten years.

Agree entirely. Looking at the build time for the OPV's, if additional hulls are needed then increasing the drum beat of the hunters and retaining some of the ANZACs for a bit longer would give an increase in hull numbers. Yes the ANZACs are not new but they are pretty capable and their equipment is supported.

The shipbuilding projects are going to be pretty busy undertaking design on each batch of Hunters and Attack's. Certainly there is the opportunity to evolve the OPV design but an all new design for a wider weapons fit will take time.

 

[cdxbow]

I personally tend to disagree about both the potential for the Arafura-class being more than an "under gunned OPV", and that Australia has the money to make it a reality.

With the Arafura-class having been designed as an OPV, albeit one with a more capable CMS and possibly electronics/sensor fitout that I would consider normal for an OPV, then certain limitations are essentially designed right in. It might be possible for some rather modest improvements to be made in terms of weapons fit out, but not IMO sufficient to permit one to go into "harms way". Without requiring a significant redesign, the 40 mm gun could probably be changed to a non-deck penetrating 57 mm, and there might be appropriate spaces which could be reinforced to permit a Mk 15 Phalanx CIWS or possibly even something like SeaRAM, if the RAN ever were to adopt RAM in the first place. There might also be a place install quad sets of AShM like Harpoon, but IMO another platform which can launch AShM is not really as important a capability as ASW or the ability to contribute to air defense.

In order to really manage something like that, either new kit which is not current in service with the RAN (or ADF for that matter) would need to be adopted and then fitted onto the modified OPV's, or the OPV's themselves would require some fairly involved redesign work. Taking a vessel which was not designed with something like a Mk 41 VLS, and then fitting one in, would involve redesign of the superstructure or hull, and the rearrangement of internal compartments. Incidentally that is one of the issues which kept cropping up whenever anyone would suggest up-gunning the RNZN's Protector-class OPV's. The compartments immediately beneath the Typhoon mounting there would need to be changed to either be sufficient to support a larger, non-deck penetrating gun, or enable deck penetration for some other type gun. Any suggestions of changing the fitout or an Arafura-class is going to run into similar issues which require redesign.

Also worth keeping in mind is the question of whether or not the OPV was designed with the kind of damage control and survivability that is more commonly found in major warships? If not, then this would be another area in need of redesign otherwise such vessels would be at greater risk during hostilities.

Now, how quickly could this redesign take place? I honestly would not be surprised if time required took a year or two to complete. Look at how long it took the redesign for the upgraded ANZAC-class frigates to be finished. Please note, I am not referring to how long it has taken for these upgrades to be done across the fleet, but how long and how many changes had to be made to an existing design.

Once the design re-work, or IMO likely a more efficient option would be to just hold a competition for a new corvette class, was all completed, then orders for the new or redesigned vessel could be placed, as well as for the needed pieces of kit like beyond what is currently planned for the OPV's are they are now. Once again, we are back to looking at a timeline of needing several years to accomplish things, unless much of this work has already been completed. With a timeline likely taking several years, money becomes an issue since while some things might be able to be expedited to a degree with extra funding, at a certain point it will not matter how much money gets waved around, things just cannot be done faster. As it currently stands Nuship Arafura was laid down 10 May 2019, but is not expected in RAN service until some time in 2022 and that is with the design as it exists now. If more, and more combat capable vessels were deemed necessary for the RAN, then they would likely have needed to be ordered several years (or more) ago, if they are supposed to see service within the next five to ten years.

Todjaeger, unfortunately no where at sea is out of harms way in the current environment. The proliferation of modern sensor platforms means ships can nearly always be found and targeted. Long range antiship missiles launched from various platforms means they can hit. It's a different world. No longer can ships and fleet decline battle as they once could if the opponent be keen to engage. Putting a manned platform to sea without any missile defense is a recipe for disaster and frankly, I would regard it as incompetence by the RAN . I think our sailors deserve some protection.

Integrating Searam shouldn't be overly difficult, like phalanx, its self contained wrt sensors and it's footprint is not large. I don't believe integrating it would be as difficult as you suggest nor would it need a major redesign. In the choice between Searam and Phalanx, the public domain information I can see suggest SeaRam is much more effective. Seemingly, Phalanx has only proved effective at shooting friendlies. Getting Searam onto the OPV could be an opportunity for the RAN to have a good look at it and evaluate it. IIRC it can also be used against surface targets.

 

[SteveR]

Todjaeger, unfortunately no where at sea is out of harms way in the current environment. The proliferation of modern sensor platforms means ships can nearly always be found and targeted. Long range antiship missiles launched from various platforms means they can hit. It's a different world. No longer can ships and fleet decline battle as they once could if the opponent be keen to engage. Putting a manned platform to sea without any missile defense is a recipe for disaster and frankly, I would regard it as incompetence by the RAN . I think our sailors deserve some protection.

If I look at what is happening both in the South China Sea and also at times in the Black Sea the current threats are all being played in the Gray zone, with lightly armed ship such as fishing vessels. The countries using these methods have no need to escalate as long as these low end vessels achieve their aims. We need vessels that can take on the Gray Zone fleet wherever it appears in our region.

 

[oldsig127]

Todjaeger, unfortunately no where at sea is out of harms way in the current environment. The proliferation of modern sensor platforms means ships can nearly always be found and targeted. Long range antiship missiles launched from various platforms means they can hit. It's a different world. No longer can ships and fleet decline battle as they once could if the opponent be keen to engage. Putting a manned platform to sea without any missile defense is a recipe for disaster and frankly, I would regard it as incompetence by the RAN .

It's all a game of risk and reward though. Does our putative enemy think it's worth expending a high end ASM against a coastal patrol vessel? Why? Should we expend effort and treasure up-gunning them, and scarce highly skilled crew manning them rather than use both crew and money on ships that the enemy is much more likely to care about and attack?

I'm pretty much baffled by the obsession with turning OPVs into half arsed MFU. It might make some sense if done in isolation from questions of finance, training, need, CONOPS, politics, public opinion and competing interests, but the discussion sounds more like my son and a group of table top war gamers trying to stretch the limits of their allocated army/navy size against a set of very unreal-world rules.

oldsig

 

[cdxbow]

It's all a game of risk and reward though. Does our putative enemy think it's worth expending a high end ASM against a coastal patrol vessel? Why? Should we expend effort and treasure up-gunning them, and scarce highly skilled crew manning them rather than use both crew and money on ships that the enemy is much more likely to care about and attack?

I'm pretty much baffled by the obsession with turning OPVs into half arsed MFU. It might make some sense if done in isolation from questions of finance, training, need, CONOPS, politics, public opinion and competing interests, but the discussion sounds more like my son and a group of table top war gamers trying to stretch the limits of their allocated army/navy size against a set of very unreal-world rules.

oldsig

I understand your points, much as Todjaeger also makes, but we have been caught by circumstance with our pants down.

The first is we are in the middle of a ship building death valley with the new major combatants basically a decade away. Sure, they are underway but nothing gives me any confidence the subs and the Hunter will be delivered on time. Out of the Anzacs and the Hobarts we will probably only have 4 or 5 out and about at anyone time. The OPV may be the only extra hulls we may have to bring to the party.

Secondly, we face, for the first time in decades a powerful and potentially very hostile opponent who is already engaging in economic warfare against us. Many believe the likelihood of a kinetic war in our region is higher than ever.

The third, to restate my point about the change in naval warfare. It's different this century to last. I think many are planning on fighting the last war. All up these changes mean the OPV is going to be launched into a very different environment than planned.

WRT to why someone should take a shot at our 'costal patrol vessels'. If they are hunting an opponents submarines or clearing their mines (as planned) then I can see them being regarded as a very worthwhile target. Do you really believe they wouldn't be?

WRT to Searam, I don't believe it would be as difficult to deploy as posters make out, nor that difficult to operate. The yanks plonk them on many different platforms including the LCS. I really struggle to see why folks are so dead set against giving the OPV some decent measure of self protection. It's not about making them a corvette, it's making them more survivable in the environment of the 21C.

 

[DDG38]

Meanwhile back in reality, good video of HMAS Supply conducting it's RAS with HMAS Anzac in a decent rolling swell :

 

[Todjaeger]

Integrating Searam shouldn't be overly difficult, like phalanx, its self contained wrt sensors and it's footprint is not large. I don't believe integrating it would be as difficult as you suggest nor would it need a major redesign. In the choice between Searam and Phalanx, the public domain information I can see suggest SeaRam is much more effective. Seemingly, Phalanx has only proved effective at shooting friendlies. Getting Searam onto the OPV could be an opportunity for the RAN to have a good look at it and evaluate it. IIRC it can also be used against surface targets.

SeaRAM integration itself would likely not be particularly difficult given how much of the system is supposed to be self-contained. It would likely require a sufficiently reinforced mounting area with appropriate power and control connections. However, SeaRAM integration would also be impossible unless/until the RAN makes the decision to adopt SeaRAM into service.

What would be IMO a much more difficult integration task would be if the decision was made by the RAN to start fielding SeaCeptor and having an appropriate VLS fitted, or some how planning on fitting a Mk 41 VLS and then ESSM or ESSM Block II to the Arafura-class OPV.

One thing which I would like to remind everyone of, is that an OPV is not typically designed or intended for warfighting purposes like a dedicated warship would be. The RAN, being of limited size when compared to the navies of other, much larger nations, had to make decisions about what balance is needed between patrol forces that would be appropriate for non-combat situations and major fleet units. It would be nice if the RAN had a budget and pool of personnel large enough for every RAN vessel apart from the amphibs and logistical support vessels to be designed, built, and capable of service as a frontline combatant. The reality is a bit different, and attempting to fit what would be major changes and upgrades to a minor warship's armament, does in some ways remind me of when I was younger and read through the book "Trawlers Go to War" by Paul Lund & Harry Ludlam. A major difference though is that this is not the late 1930's, when adhoc modifications to non-combatants could provide some combat capabilities, or when aerial threats could be defended against using small arms and/or small calibre rapid fire cannon.

 

[spoz]

Meanwhile back in reality, good video of HMAS Supply conducting it's RAS with HMAS Anzac in a decent rolling swell :

More than one, on the starboard side initially, and then on the port, both connected apparently.

 

[cdxbow]

SeaRAM integration itself would likely not be particularly difficult given how much of the system is supposed to be self-contained. It would likely require a sufficiently reinforced mounting area with appropriate power and control connections. However, SeaRAM integration would also be impossible unless/until the RAN makes the decision to adopt SeaRAM into service.

What would be IMO a much more difficult integration task would be if the decision was made by the RAN to start fielding SeaCeptor and having an appropriate VLS fitted, or some how planning on fitting a Mk 41 VLS and then ESSM or ESSM Block II to the Arafura-class OPV.

One thing which I would like to remind everyone of, is that an OPV is not typically designed or intended for warfighting purposes like a dedicated warship would be. The RAN, being of limited size when compared to the navies of other, much larger nations, had to make decisions about what balance is needed between patrol forces that would be appropriate for non-combat situations and major fleet units. It would be nice if the RAN had a budget and pool of personnel large enough for every RAN vessel apart from the amphibs and logistical support vessels to be designed, built, and capable of service as a frontline combatant. The reality is a bit different, and attempting to fit what would be major changes and upgrades to a minor warship's armament, does in some ways remind me of when I was younger and read through the book "Trawlers Go to War" by Paul Lund & Harry Ludlam. A major difference though is that this is not the late 1930's, when adhoc modifications to non-combatants could provide some combat capabilities, or when aerial threats could be defended against using small arms and/or small calibre rapid fire cannon.

You are making a good argument for Searam!

 

[ngatimozart]

I understand your points, much as Todjaeger also makes, but we have been caught by circumstance with our pants down.

The first is we are in the middle of a ship building death valley with the new major combatants basically a decade away. Sure, they are underway but nothing gives me any confidence the subs and the Hunter will be delivered on time. Out of the Anzacs and the Hobarts we will probably only have 4 or 5 out and about at anyone time. The OPV may be the only extra hulls we may have to bring to the party.

Secondly, we face, for the first time in decades a powerful and potentially very hostile opponent who is already engaging in economic warfare against us. Many believe the likelihood of a kinetic war in our region is higher than ever.

The third, to restate my point about the change in naval warfare. It's different this century to last. I think many are planning on fighting the last war. All up these changes mean the OPV is going to be launched into a very different environment than planned.

WRT to why someone should take a shot at our 'costal patrol vessels'. If they are hunting an opponents submarines or clearing their mines (as planned) then I can see them being regarded as a very worthwhile target. Do you really believe they wouldn't be?

WRT to Searam, I don't believe it would be as difficult to deploy as posters make out, nor that difficult to operate. The yanks plonk them on many different platforms including the LCS. I really struggle to see why folks are so dead set against giving the OPV some decent measure of self protection. It's not about making them a corvette, it's making them more survivable in the environment of the 21C.

Who says that you are in the middle of a ship building death valley? Do you really think that they can just go out and start cutting the first steel tomorrow morning FFS get real. This is not building a jet boat with a 50 cal on it.

Now for the other posters.
FFS the Arafura OPVs are OPVs nothing more nothing less. That's what they are designed and mandated to do. They have a 40mm autocannon and if a Chinese gray war opponent does want to push things to far 40mm cannon shells whizzing pass their bridge may just give them the idea that they suddenly remember that they are supposed to be somewhere else far away.

IF the RAN ever decides that it requires corvettes, they will NOT be the size of the Arafura class, but significantly larger, most likely 3,000 -- 3,500 tonnes displacement. For those who have trouble understanding or are slow in reading this is why. The range requirements necessitate large bunkerage, along with the weapons, sensors, armouring, propulsion, power generation, communications, magazine, hangarage etc., requirements all of which add mass. It's simple physics; the more mass the greater the energy and fuel required to move it through the water. That's simple enough that even a pollie, a journo or even APA should be able to understand it.

Next point and this may just tax some people's brain cells. How and where are you going to build these corvettes? It's not like the Commonwealth of Australia can just pull shipyards, experienced shipworkers, designers and funding out of its arse. Even then if by some miracle of miracles they are actually built, how are you going to crew them? Where do all the extra experienced core crew and new crew come from. Are you going to introduce the press gang again? That'll go down well. I can just hear all the whinging now.

So get real and stop trying to turn the Arafura Class OPV into something they are not. Yes this post is dripping with sarcasm but this discussion has rared its head again after it previously being set aside, by the Moderators, because of its impracticality. DEFPROs are complaining about this ludicrous conversation and that makes for cranky, grumpy Moderators.

So the ball is in your court. DEFPROs and others have attempted to explain the errors in your thinking but their patience and that of the Moderators has well and truly ended. Think very carefully before you post on this topic again.

 

[hauritz]

The navy approach seems to be slow and steady and mostly conservative. Simply taking a patrol boat and sticking some missiles on it doesn't turn it into a warship. I would much rather see the navy take the same approach as the air force and look at acquiring and actively developing new technology.

For example look at something like DARPA's proposed TERN project, stick a few of these on an Arafura and you have a mini aircraft carrier.

Will it happen?

Maybe, maybe not ... but so far all the traditional approach has offered are new submarines and frigates that may enter service sometime in the 2030 when really what we want are force multipliers that can be deployed off our existing platforms around the mid to late 20s.

Perhaps the navy is keeping some of these projects under wraps but I would hope that they are at least actively examining options such as USV, UUVs and UCAS.

 

[DDG38]

More than one, on the starboard side initially, and then on the port, both connected apparently.

I think Anzac just did 2 runs on both sides, the CO of Supply would have mentioned it if they were working with 2 ships. I'm sure that's next on their workup list.

 

[MickB]

then they would likely have needed to be ordered several years (or more) ago, if they are supposed to see service within the next five to ten years.

Not pointing at Todjaeger in perticular, but over the years I have seen similar comments ( Collins, Adelaide,Anzac) with no follow up.
Its almost as if the right vessel was not ordered at the right time so lets shrug our shoulders and do nothing.
OK can not change the past, can not turn OPVs into full combatants. Look to the future.
Given the timelines for modern warships the replacement for the Hobarts, if not the Hunters and Arafuras should already in the design stage.
What is the criteria for a modern warship, power generation?, intergrated systems?,stealth?, speed?, range?
What is the criteria for its armament, missiles?, HVPs?, directed energy?
Without wishing for the starship Enterprise where should we be headed?

 

[cdxbow]

Who says that you are in the middle of a ship building death valley? Do you really think that they can just go out and start cutting the first steel tomorrow morning FFS get real. This is not building a jet boat with a 50 cal on it.

Now for the other posters.
FFS the Arafura OPVs are OPVs nothing more nothing less. That's what they are designed and mandated to do. They have a 40mm autocannon and if a Chinese gray war opponent does want to push things to far 40mm cannon shells whizzing pass their bridge may just give them the idea that they suddenly remember that they are supposed to be somewhere else far away.

IF the RAN ever decides that it requires corvettes, they will NOT be the size of the Arafura class, but significantly larger, most likely 3,000 -- 3,500 tonnes displacement. For those who have trouble understanding or are slow in reading this is why. The range requirements necessitate large bunkerage, along with the weapons, sensors, armouring, propulsion, power generation, communications, magazine, hangarage etc., requirements all of which add mass. It's simple physics; the more mass the greater the energy and fuel required to move it through the water. That's simple enough that even a pollie, a journo or even APA should be able to understand it.

Next point and this may just tax some people's brain cells. How and where are you going to build these corvettes? It's not like the Commonwealth of Australia can just pull shipyards, experienced shipworkers, designers and funding out of its arse. Even then if by some miracle of miracles they are actually built, how are you going to crew them? Where do all the extra experienced core crew and new crew come from. Are you going to introduce the press gang again? That'll go down well. I can just hear all the whinging now.

So get real and stop trying to turn the Arafura Class OPV into something they are not. Yes this post is dripping with sarcasm but this discussion has rared its head again after it previously being set aside, by the Moderators, because of its impracticality. DEFPROs are complaining about this ludicrous conversation and that makes for cranky, grumpy Moderators.

So the ball is in your court. DEFPROs and others have attempted to explain the errors in your thinking but their patience and that of the Moderators has well and truly ended. Think very carefully before you post on this topic again.

I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree and feel your sarcasm is misplaced.

I have suggested adding some modern air defence to the OPV, not make them corvettes as you imply. Searam fits the bill well. I disagree with your implication that adding Searam would be so labour intensive that our sailors couldn't manage it. Given a RAN officer suggested the same thing recently I don't feel that I am expressing a opinion that leaves me uncomfortably out on limb.

I have not suggested massive and impossible changes like VLS, powerful radars etc. as you imply.

I have not suggested major increases in fleet numbers but I have pointed out these are the only hulls the RAN are getting in the near future.
Yes, we have started the major combatants projects, which are running behind schedule and seemingly plagued by issues.

 

[ngatimozart]

I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree and feel your sarcasm is misplaced.

I have suggested adding some modern air defence to the OPV, not make them corvettes as you imply. Searam fits the bill well. I disagree with your implication that adding Searam would be so labour intensive that our sailors couldn't manage it. Given a RAN officer suggested the same thing recently I don't feel that I am expressing a opinion that leaves me uncomfortably out on limb.

I have not suggested massive and impossible changes like VLS, powerful radars etc. as you imply.

I have not suggested major increases in fleet numbers but I have pointed out these are the only hulls the RAN are getting in the near future.
Yes, we have started the major combatants projects, which are running behind schedule and seemingly plagued by issues.

It is your right to disagree with mine or anyone elses opinion however this circus has gone on long enough.

Not aimed at anyone in particular. This talk about modifying, uparming, frankensteining etc., of the Arafura Class OPV is not welcome or appreciated. The DEFPROS and Moderators have grown very tired of it because it is repetitive, has been thrashed out before, and DEFPROS, especially ones who have worked in the field, have explained why ideas presented will not work. If people cannot, or will not understand that and continue to push their luck, then they may find themselves in trouble.

Don't push it because the DEFPROS and the Moderators are really pissed off about this. I cannot put it any plainer for a bunch of Aussies.