Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Gooey

Well-Known Member
Ta mate, although I have no idea why 'the people must be ok'.

Of course VLR would be part of 'integrated focused' ADF OOB which is why you point 'arguably is already a part of the NTs menu of strike packages' assumes Uncle Sam has spare capacity, while fighting CCP, which we are then reliant on rather than being a national capability. ie. the same reason for getting SSN rather than rely on USN.
 

Aardvark144

Active Member
Well I for one totally, whole heartedly agree. It should have been 8x E-7 and 12x P-8 instead of 6 and 8 and at least 5 Peregrine. But to prioritise super weapons over flexibility. I still comeback to, can anyone honestly see Canberra authorising a high altitude raid? It would place the ADF in the position of Sheriff instead of Deputy Sheriff let alone getting support from allies for such a thing. And I don't even want to think about putting the Raider in ears shot of every modern radar for prolonged periods just for a show of force. I mean, it's just going to sit on the tarmac and look pretty isn't it
Am I missing something? 8 x P8s? P8 number 14 has just had it's first flight in the US.
 

SamB

Member
Am I missing something? 8 x P8s? P8 number 14 has just had it's first flight in the US.
Excuse me. I was under the impression that that the RAAF received 4 + options for 3 more. Thank you for correcting. And, least we know that numbers aren't trending down.

On another note. With energy and resources price inflation trending higher and inflation generally, a resource for tech swap namely AUKAS puts Australia in a good spot.
 

SamB

Member
Ta mate, although I have no idea why 'the people must be ok'.

Of course VLR would be part of 'integrated focused' ADF OOB which is why you point 'arguably is already a part of the NTs menu of strike packages' assumes Uncle Sam has spare capacity, while fighting CCP, which we are then reliant on rather than being a national capability. ie. the same reason for getting SSN rather than rely on USN.
I have questions for the use of the word "sovereignty". I will note that this is the RAAF thread. To continue this should be done in the general thread.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
eg. just altitude profile: why high only? medium block for ISR or anti SAG from low ... although there is a singular beauty in a B-21 dropping 100 SDB/JDAM onto 100 targets from FL400
Do you think an Australian B-21 dropping 100 JDAM over mainland china from FL400 changes China's calculus? Australia isn't going to be able to carpet bomb China into submission. Certainly not from 15,000km away, without any allied support. As the saying goes, for all the tea in china. Outside of China, what sort of Chinese targets do you have in mind that would warrant that? Shipping?

Its a USAF aircraft for USAF missions. They aren't going to turn it into a stealthy P8.

The SSN strike capability is precision long range strike against certain targets. Its not the prime reason we are getting them. Subs hunt shipping and subs. A b-21 can't protect our shipping lanes in any form.

It should have been 8x E-7 and 12x P-8 instead of 6 and 8 and at least 5 Peregrine.
We have 6 x E7 and 14 x P8 and 4 Triton
The p8 are now being upgraded to increment 3 block 2 - which will enable LRASM fitment. Today. It can be cued by other assets, today.

P8 can deter Chinese naval assets, surface ships, and submarines. It can also do land strike and at significant range. Over our vast oceanic distances.

There was an original option for a 15th aircraft that has not been taken up. Its just sitting there as a ready to go option.
 

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Do you think an Australian B-21 dropping 100 JDAM over mainland china from FL400 changes China's calculus? Australia isn't going to be able to carpet bomb China into submission. Certainly not from 15,000km away, without any allied support. As the saying goes, for all the tea in china. Outside of China, what sort of Chinese targets do you have in mind that would warrant that? Shipping?

Its a USAF aircraft for USAF missions. They aren't going to turn it into a stealthy P8.

The SSN strike capability is precision long range strike against certain targets. Its not the prime reason we are getting them. Subs hunt shipping and subs. A b-21 can't protect our shipping lanes in any form.


We have 6 x E7 and 14 x P8 and 4 Triton
The p8 are now being upgraded to increment 3 block 2 - which will enable LRASM fitment. Today. It can be cued by other assets, today.

P8 can deter Chinese naval assets, surface ships, and submarines. It can also do land strike and at significant range. Over our vast oceanic distances.

There was an original option for a 15th aircraft that has not been taken up. Its just sitting there as a ready to go option.
The 15th aircraft option would be a prudent addition.
On many levels the P8 is an important asset for the ADF.

If you want to add capacity to combat the current perceived level of threat, then add to existing in service platforms.

It’s in production and has a long term future.

Cheers S
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Particularly while we are upgrading:
The E7
The P8 to increment 3 block 2
The F-18 Block III
The F-35 fleet To TSR3/Block IV - Awaiting for weapon upgrades as well like LRSAM.

A lot of our fleet may be off line or reduced capability.

Plus you have:
The Hobarts
The Collins
All undergoing upgrades
Anzacs on limited life.

That's just our holes, our allies also have blind spots and similar issues.

A P8 would be able to help all of these. Plus beyond that, it would be useful, as we do freedom exercises, and have such a massive airspace to cover. Plus you already have support mechanisms and training and weapons in place. Its pretty much our go to platforms for suprise naval visits, coalition exercises, regional support, etc.

Not as sexy as a b21, but more likely to be in service much faster.
 

Takao

The Bunker Group
Its always a laugh watching nautical guys threatened by air power.

1. Why B-21 (in theory): speed; flexibility; and firepower v's CCP operating in the southern hem (not going down town China mainland as some mater-mind stated).
SSN are truly awesome sharks but:
- unlike VLR air, they are relatively slow; not flexibility (single theatre over months); limited firepower (TLAM only? v current USAF conventional inventory)
- I assume this is idea is being floated if Virginia Class are not available or delayed until distant future AUKUS Class
- I've never heard anyone claim VLR can conduct ASW; another mater-mind moment
No. It's a honest assessment of air power. There is little that air power can do that an SSK/SSN can. The B-21 is even more restrictive than most air power platforms. It can carry bombs and likely some land attack stand off weapons. Nothing useful for our strategy. It's also quite visible (you can't stealth an airbase doing combat tempo) and it's supply chain is extremely vulnerable.

Air power is essential. It, however, is not the only answer. The view of the 1920s and 1930s about air power really needs to die.

2. RAAF has been under resourced since AUKUS. The current OOB is tailored for 'peace'
- eg. 20 new C-130J should have been 30, including K/MC-130J
- 4th F-35 sqn was supposed to be FJ expansion
- F/A-18F/G are in addition to F-35, to be replaced by whatever is suitable for our AO
- Additional strategic AAR, P-8, E-7 replacements
- new in-theatre STOL ala Caravan/Air Van/PC-12 at Townsville and as comms flight acft at main bases, in place of the Cinderella C-27J
I don't know whether or not to laugh at this. Underfunded? Yes, in the sense that everything (including the rest of the RAN), yes. Under resourced compared to what the rest is getting? Please, don't make me laugh. There isn't a more sacred cow than the RAAF - other than SSNs.

In order:
The 20x C-130s was meant to be (as per FSP, so 6 years ago) 24x C-130s. The KC-130s were part of the AAR fleet expansion and would have only been obtained with another Sqn of MH-47G. The latter never went ahead, removing the need for C-130 refuellers.

*sigh* there never was a fourth F-35 Sqn. It was additional funds for an air combat capability. It could have been a fourth Sqn of F-35s, additional Hornets, missiles, IAMD, a whole bunch of things. An option to order more F-35 (to go to 102) is not a project, nor a need. There is actually a strong case to make that the touted F-111 replacement for long-range strike is the HiMARS - which would fulfil that additional combat capability (by freeing up the F-18Es). I mean, gosh, it's likely that money will be needed to pay L-M even more $$ for TR3 and Block 4 - you know, to deliver what we ordered. Hard to justify buying more aircraft when the ones we have don't meet what we paid for, and we are expected to pay more for. Maybe. When it's possible.

Additional AAR was discussed above. 14x P-8s were always the plan (and, speaking of cows, were actually meant to be 12, but the removal of the 'special' P-3s meant they got another 2. And the MC-55 schemozzle. E-7 replacement is still on the board, as per the 2020 timeline, so nothing is missing yet. In fact, there isn't even the willingness to have a discussion about what happens if the tech isn't available for that platform - we are rarely able to question sacred cows.

The C-27J shouldn't be replaced. It fulfils no need or use in the ADF. A platform that, by the way, was rightfully looked at with scissors to cut from at least 2019 by all three Services, but wasn't touched because it would lower the number of aircraft in the RAAF. We kept a very expensive, useless capability chewing money in a fiscally constrained environment for ego. What does replace the DHC-4 Caribou is the CH-47 (got a bunch of those) and an additional 8x C-130 (which makes up the order for 20). We don't need another STOL aircraft.

I wish I was as under-resourced as the RAAF
 

StevoJH

The Bunker Group
I thought the 4th squadron of F-35 was in the picture when the F-18F was considered an interim capability and before the RAAF got a squadron of EA-18G. Which took the platform count up to 36.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
mods…hoping this is not straying into fantasy fleet….If we needed a stop gap solution for long range strike ( assuming someone has already decided we need a long range strike capability via AUKUS) would prefer an Upgraded Gostbat that can carry a decent internal loadout of strike weapons out to 3-4000 km range. Even if it’s double or triple the cost of Ghostbat 1 it seems way better bang for the buck.
 
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