Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Bob53

Well-Known Member
A
Afternoon gents,

Article from the Australian yesterday regarding the upgrade of the Shornets. Pretty much confirms what we already know. Seems the last tranch of F-35 likely wont happen and we will wait for Gen 6 Jets.

“During 2023-2024, F/A-18F aircraft are scheduled to undergo planned capability upgrades as part of the US Navy-managed Spiral Upgrade Program to ensure the platform’s ongoing lethality and survivability in a contested environment, and to maintain configuration alignment with the US Navy,” the budget documents report.

This ties in with the article from April where the Boeing rep said they were in discussions to upgrade to block 3 and block 2 for the Fs and Gs respectively.

And conveniently is the lowest cost option on the current budget forecast. It basically means do the upgrade and commit to nothing else for around 10-15 years. That may end up being a good option and allow unmanned options to mature but the cynic in me says it’s budget driven and nothing else.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The emphasis with the DSR is on sovereign equipment. Build our own ships, build our own missiles, build whatever we can in Australia. It wouldn't surprise me if the emphasis with the RAAF will be on domestically built equipment such as Ghost Bat. I have a feeling that a third tranche of F-35s has slipped down the list of priorities. It wouldn't surprise me if the ultimate plan to replace the SH involves a fleet of MQ-28s or their successors, supported by a handful of manned aircraft.
 
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Bob53

Well-Known Member
News filtering through that Australia 41 FA18s in storage are on the table for the Ukraine Apparently. I don’t know if this is all palaver or real…. Given the AFR actively plugged the idea some months ago…may be Journo activism…



The AFR link is paywalled. Here are relevant snippets:
"Australia, the US and Ukraine are discussing sending 41 Royal Australian Air Force F/A-18 Hornets to Kyiv.

The retired F/A-18s are sitting in a hangar at the Williamtown RAAF base outside Newcastle and unless sent to Ukraine, will either be scrapped or sold to a private sector aviation company.

Robert Potter, an Australian security expert advising the Ukrainian government, confirmed negotiations were underway, but a specific deal is yet to be finalised.

“However, the United States and Ukraine have an active and specific interest in the acquisition of fourth generation fighters for the Ukrainian Air Force,” he said.

“Australia operates a large stockpile of retired planes which are otherwise scheduled for destruction. There are multiple formal approvals required to conclude a procurement of these planes, but it is likely an idea whose time has come.”

A separate source close to the discussions agreed it made no sense to destroy perfectly good aircraft that he said could be operational within four months and used to help repel the Russian invasion.

While a handful of planes would only be good for cannibalising parts, the vast bulk would take little work to be brought up to flying condition and have a couple of years left on their airframes. The Australian Hornets are in good shape because they didn’t operate at sea
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
News filtering through that Australia 41 FA18s in storage are on the table for the Ukraine Apparently. I don’t know if this is all palaver or real…. Given the AFR actively plugged the idea some months ago…may be Journo activism…



The AFR link is paywalled. Here are relevant snippets:
"Australia, the US and Ukraine are discussing sending 41 Royal Australian Air Force F/A-18 Hornets to Kyiv.

The retired F/A-18s are sitting in a hangar at the Williamtown RAAF base outside Newcastle and unless sent to Ukraine, will either be scrapped or sold to a private sector aviation company.

Robert Potter, an Australian security expert advising the Ukrainian government, confirmed negotiations were underway, but a specific deal is yet to be finalised.

“However, the United States and Ukraine have an active and specific interest in the acquisition of fourth generation fighters for the Ukrainian Air Force,” he said.

“Australia operates a large stockpile of retired planes which are otherwise scheduled for destruction. There are multiple formal approvals required to conclude a procurement of these planes, but it is likely an idea whose time has come.”

A separate source close to the discussions agreed it made no sense to destroy perfectly good aircraft that he said could be operational within four months and used to help repel the Russian invasion.

While a handful of planes would only be good for cannibalising parts, the vast bulk would take little work to be brought up to flying condition and have a couple of years left on their airframes. The Australian Hornets are in good shape because they didn’t operate at sea
ABC news today




I wonder if there is something in this proposal of the Classic Hornets being sent to the Ukraine.

If so, how much work would be required to make these aircraft feasible.
Also I gather you don't just hand the keys over and realistically expect a new air force to be up to speed and flying over night.
What sort of realistic time frame are we looking at.

A interesting one.


Cheers S
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
ABC news today
I wonder if there is something in this proposal of the Classic Hornets being sent to the Ukraine.

If so, how much work would be required to make these aircraft feasible.
Also I gather you don't just hand the keys over and realistically expect a new air force to be up to speed and flying over night.
What sort of realistic time frame are we looking at.

A interesting one.
Cheers S
There are a number of Air forces that operate F-18 in Europe/NATO that could help support and train pilots. Canada, Finland, Spain, Switzerland. The swiss I can't see being involved. Finland might also be a big ask as Russia can annoy/apply pressure to them very easily. If they support, its likely to be a non public way.

However Spain is quite far from Russia and generally beyond immediate Russian interference, would be somewhat likely to be resistant to Russian pressure. The US marines still have some Hornets as well, but they will be quickly be shuffling out too. But these could operate out of Spain to help train pilots and ground crews.

The Gripen uses the F404 and so Sweden could also provide additional engines and engine maintenance capability. As can the Koreans which use the F404 on the Golden eagle. Korea may be interested in offering support if it can secure later sales.

41 is a significant number of aircraft. It also seems like the government is keen to get rid of them. Having them lying around isn't going to improve the condition or value of the aircraft. Its not just the aircraft, its also basically everything needed to keep them operating and training pilots for them. Who else is going to be able to offer everything?

While maybe not quite as cheap as a F-16, it would still be a cheaper aircraft to operate, with multiple points for airframe and engine support. It fires most NATO weapons. Compatible with NATO systems and networks. There are a lot of old harpoons, that could gladly be disposed of by gifting to Ukraine as well, and the F-18 is an ideal harpoon platform.

I dunno.. this proposal might have some legs. Australia is an ideal fighter donating country, its not part of NATO, and threats of Russia cutting oil or coal supplies, wheat exports to Australia are laughable. It can't even threaten our airspace, and even a sub patrol is probably out of reach currently.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Sorry if noted here previously…where did the MQ9s end up in the defence review? In or out?

Nothing in the DSR.
There has been some "experts" suggesting we should operate MQ-9s off the Canberra's, can't see too much enthusiasm in the RAN for it, while the vessel represented may or may not be a JC-1 design, the film above shows just how tight a fit they would be. wingspan on the MQ-9 is 20m, flight deck width including the island on a JC-1 is 32m. Most of the left wing is over the water and the left undercarriage 2-3m from the deck edge.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There are a number of Air forces that operate F-18 in Europe/NATO that could help support and train pilots. Canada, Finland, Spain, Switzerland. The swiss I can't see being involved. Finland might also be a big ask as Russia can annoy/apply pressure to them very easily. If they support, its likely to be a non public way.

However Spain is quite far from Russia and generally beyond immediate Russian interference, would be somewhat likely to be resistant to Russian pressure. The US marines still have some Hornets as well, but they will be quickly be shuffling out too. But these could operate out of Spain to help train pilots and ground crews.

The Gripen uses the F404 and so Sweden could also provide additional engines and engine maintenance capability. As can the Koreans which use the F404 on the Golden eagle. Korea may be interested in offering support if it can secure later sales.

41 is a significant number of aircraft. It also seems like the government is keen to get rid of them. Having them lying around isn't going to improve the condition or value of the aircraft. Its not just the aircraft, its also basically everything needed to keep them operating and training pilots for them. Who else is going to be able to offer everything?

While maybe not quite as cheap as a F-16, it would still be a cheaper aircraft to operate, with multiple points for airframe and engine support. It fires most NATO weapons. Compatible with NATO systems and networks. There are a lot of old harpoons, that could gladly be disposed of by gifting to Ukraine as well, and the F-18 is an ideal harpoon platform.

I dunno.. this proposal might have some legs. Australia is an ideal fighter donating country, its not part of NATO, and threats of Russia cutting oil or coal supplies, wheat exports to Australia are laughable. It can't even threaten our airspace, and even a sub patrol is probably out of reach currently.
I dunno. Those Russian tugboats are pretty reliable…
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Are there 41 complete retired ex-RAAF Classic Hornets available? Don’t know, not too sure about that?


Of the 71 retired, the RCAF procured 18 airframes, plus, an additional seven airframes to be used as spares, that makes 25 (if all seven spares were actually procured?).

In addition, another eight (8) airframes have been saved for museums here in Oz.

That adds up to 33 airframes, that’s leaves 38, not 41 (assuming the RCAF did in fact procure all seven to be used as spares?).

Anyway, that needs some clarification


On a side note, Andrew Green said in his ABC article that:

“If approved, the transfer would be Australia's largest-ever single transfer of military equipment to a foreign power”

If he is referring to former RAAF aircraft, he is wrong (yet again), he appears to have forgotten the 50 ‘complete’ Mirage IIIs (plus five incomplete airframes) sold to Pakistan.

Got to love accurate ABC reporting (not).
 
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ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There are a number of Air forces that operate F-18 in Europe/NATO that could help support and train pilots. Canada, Finland, Spain, Switzerland. The swiss I can't see being involved. Finland might also be a big ask as Russia can annoy/apply pressure to them very easily. If they support, its likely to be a non public way.

However Spain is quite far from Russia and generally beyond immediate Russian interference, would be somewhat likely to be resistant to Russian pressure. The US marines still have some Hornets as well, but they will be quickly be shuffling out too. But these could operate out of Spain to help train pilots and ground crews.

The Gripen uses the F404 and so Sweden could also provide additional engines and engine maintenance capability. As can the Koreans which use the F404 on the Golden eagle. Korea may be interested in offering support if it can secure later sales.

41 is a significant number of aircraft. It also seems like the government is keen to get rid of them. Having them lying around isn't going to improve the condition or value of the aircraft. Its not just the aircraft, its also basically everything needed to keep them operating and training pilots for them. Who else is going to be able to offer everything?

While maybe not quite as cheap as a F-16, it would still be a cheaper aircraft to operate, with multiple points for airframe and engine support. It fires most NATO weapons. Compatible with NATO systems and networks. There are a lot of old harpoons, that could gladly be disposed of by gifting to Ukraine as well, and the F-18 is an ideal harpoon platform.

I dunno.. this proposal might have some legs. Australia is an ideal fighter donating country, its not part of NATO, and threats of Russia cutting oil or coal supplies, wheat exports to Australia are laughable. It can't even threaten our airspace, and even a sub patrol is probably out of reach currently.
I don't think that the Finns would be to worried about Russia putting pressure on them. They have been suppling war material etc., to Ukraine and this would be no different. Also Finland is a full NATO member now and that makes a big difference.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
That adds up to 33 airframes, that’s leaves 38, not 41 (assuming the RCAF did in fact procure all seven to be used as spares?).
Yeh, the 41 number seems high. I expect they will be given if it happens in batches of ~12 at a time. We don't just given them a mega amount of bushmasters either.

Ultimately the idea is to get Russia back to negotiate an end. 36 Fighter aircraft, on top of western tanks and APC's and 155mm artillery flowing into Ukraine, may just push them to see its unlikely they will have anymore advantage than what they have now.

I don't think that the Finns would be to worried about Russia putting pressure on them. They have been suppling war material etc., to Ukraine and this would be no different. Also Finland is a full NATO member now and that makes a big difference.
Well I think the Fins would be supportive, but the Russians can put operational pressure on them still. Hard to train pilots if someone is harrassing your sovereignty at a high tempo. I just don't think Finland is ideal at this point to train Ukrainian pilots. However, they would be idea for training maintainers has they are one of the few western air forces who went and replaced Mig21's to Hornets.

Meanwhile, Spain has a whole Fleet of F-18, Russia can never get to them in any form, or apply any pressure, or complain about threatening displays etc, and its warm, and sunny. There are already a whole bunch of American and NATO facilities there and they are bigger than the ones at Finland. I am just pointing out that it doesn't have to be all Finland. Spain had 84 F-18, so they are a bigger owner/operator than Australia was and bigger than Finland. They have a large air force and operate 60+ Eurofighters as well. They also have 12 two seaters. For experienced fast jet pilots that is handy. They have EADS and Indra who are familiar on supporting upgrading hornets.

Finland seems quite interested in donating its F-18 once they start receiving F-35s. But that is a while off. Spain hasn't yet ordered any F-35's, but they are receiving Eurofighter deliveries which may mean they have some to dispose of. They bought 24 x-UN f-18 in the mid 90's. They are probably in the process of winding down their F-18 fleet. Perhaps not completely, but they aren't flying all of those airframes intensely.

Which changes the F-18 announcement, if say Australia can supply ~36 F-18 initially, and then every 3-6 months another European nation can supply another 6-12 aircraft. Then this looks like less of a one off an Russia can see ~80 F-18's in Spain, ~64 F-18's in Finland, Ex-USMC F-18 with probably another 100 aircraft. It starts to look like Ukraine could eventually get as many F-18's as they can get their hands on.

As NSM deliveries take off, Harpoon becomes disposable for western forces. While an older naval missile, it could be put into use as a ground attack strike to hit GPS locations. F-18 operating harpoon gives a reasonable stand off capability. Unlike storm shadow, it could be hundreds or thousands of harpoons.

Looking into it, the proposal may have legs.

Wider, well Australia's role in global politics is lifted. We aren't just a player in our region, we affect globally.
Doesn't have to cost the US a lot to allow this. Its also a lot of middle powers working together rather than the US facilitating every step.
Australia EU economic relations. There is a FTA still in the air.
Australia EU military relations. There are acquisitions in the air. Also helping Australia in the Pacific can be returned, Australia helps europe.
Australia is the perfect nation to donate equipment because its so far away from Russia and is a competitor against Russia in many economic areas.
Spurs adoption of NSM and F-35. This could be the prod to move Spain to acquire F-35. Do this, get this, some sort of deal.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
Yeh, the 41 number seems high. I expect they will be given if it happens in batches of ~12 at a time. We don't just given them a mega amount of bushmasters either.

Ultimately the idea is to get Russia back to negotiate an end. 36 Fighter aircraft, on top of western tanks and APC's and 155mm artillery flowing into Ukraine, may just push them to see its unlikely they will have anymore advantage than what they have now.



Well I think the Fins would be supportive, but the Russians can put operational pressure on them still. Hard to train pilots if someone is harrassing your sovereignty at a high tempo. I just don't think Finland is ideal at this point to train Ukrainian pilots. However, they would be idea for training maintainers has they are one of the few western air forces who went and replaced Mig21's to Hornets.

Meanwhile, Spain has a whole Fleet of F-18, Russia can never get to them in any form, or apply any pressure, or complain about threatening displays etc, and its warm, and sunny. There are already a whole bunch of American and NATO facilities there and they are bigger than the ones at Finland. I am just pointing out that it doesn't have to be all Finland. Spain had 84 F-18, so they are a bigger owner/operator than Australia was and bigger than Finland. They have a large air force and operate 60+ Eurofighters as well. They also have 12 two seaters. For experienced fast jet pilots that is handy. They have EADS and Indra who are familiar on supporting upgrading hornets.

Finland seems quite interested in donating its F-18 once they start receiving F-35s. But that is a while off. Spain hasn't yet ordered any F-35's, but they are receiving Eurofighter deliveries which may mean they have some to dispose of. They bought 24 x-UN f-18 in the mid 90's. They are probably in the process of winding down their F-18 fleet. Perhaps not completely, but they aren't flying all of those airframes intensely.

Which changes the F-18 announcement, if say Australia can supply ~36 F-18 initially, and then every 3-6 months another European nation can supply another 6-12 aircraft. Then this looks like less of a one off an Russia can see ~80 F-18's in Spain, ~64 F-18's in Finland, Ex-USMC F-18 with probably another 100 aircraft. It starts to look like Ukraine could eventually get as many F-18's as they can get their hands on.

As NSM deliveries take off, Harpoon becomes disposable for western forces. While an older naval missile, it could be put into use as a ground attack strike to hit GPS locations. F-18 operating harpoon gives a reasonable stand off capability. Unlike storm shadow, it could be hundreds or thousands of harpoons.

Looking into it, the proposal may have legs.

Wider, well Australia's role in global politics is lifted. We aren't just a player in our region, we affect globally.
Doesn't have to cost the US a lot to allow this. Its also a lot of middle powers working together rather than the US facilitating every step.
Australia EU economic relations. There is a FTA still in the air.
Australia EU military relations. There are acquisitions in the air. Also helping Australia in the Pacific can be returned, Australia helps europe.
Australia is the perfect nation to donate equipment because its so far away from Russia and is a competitor against Russia in many economic areas.
Spurs adoption of NSM and F-35. This could be the prod to move Spain to acquire F-35. Do this, get this, some sort of deal.
I think everyone is getting a bit ahead of themselves regarding the proposal to provide Ukraine with Classic Hornets (ex RAAF or otherwise).

I don’t know if there is enough wind beneath the wings to get off the ground just yet (both puns intended).

Looking at this objectively, I’m sure Ukraine has enough ‘real world’ hurdles to provide enough pilots and ground crew to man their Soviet era aircraft under the current circumstances.

Add to that, is the building of momentum to start a training program for future F-16 operations, being able to provide both pilots and ground crews, and then obtain enough F-16 airframes for operational purposes.

Now people are talking about also throwing F/A-18s into the mix? Really?

I’m not saying this isn’t a proposal that can’t be considered in the future, but maybe the focus should be on getting enough pilots and ground crew to effectively operate F-16s first.

If the conflict rolls into 2024 and beyond, then yes, the F/A-18 proposal is probably more likely to fly (another intended pun).

Anyway .....
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ultimately the idea is to get Russia back to negotiate an end.
Wrong, the Ukrainians have the say and they say that ultimately the idea is to remove Russia from all areas of Ukrainian territory that it illegally occupies. It is not up to us or any other nation to dictate to Ukraine what it's ultimate objectives are. The only way to forestall future Russian aggression against Ukraine and other is to give it a very serious thrashing on the battlefield. Negotiations that give Russia any foothold within pre 2014 Ukrainian borders, works to Putin's favour and means that he will rearm and try again.
 

Bob53

Well-Known Member
I think everyone is getting a bit ahead of themselves regarding the proposal to provide Ukraine with Classic Hornets (ex RAAF or otherwise).

I don’t know if there is enough wind beneath the wings to get off the ground just yet (both puns intended).

Looking at this objectively, I’m sure Ukraine has enough ‘real world’ hurdles to provide enough pilots and ground crew to man their Soviet era aircraft under the current circumstances.

Add to that, is the building of momentum to start a training program for future F-16 operations, being able to provide both pilots and ground crews, and then obtain enough F-16 airframes for operational purposes.

Now people are talking about also throwing F/A-18s into the mix? Really?

I’m not saying this isn’t a proposal that can’t be considered in the future, but maybe the focus should be on getting enough pilots and ground crew to effectively operate F-16s first.

If the conflict rolls into 2024 and beyond, then yes, the F/A-18 proposal is probably more likely to fly (another intended pun).

Anyway .....
Don’t forget that the Ukraine… unlike Australia had a significant aviation industry includining Antonio. Won’t say how good it was but they would have a lot more aviation and jet engineers than the typical equivalent sized country.
 

buffy9

Well-Known Member
I think everyone is getting a bit ahead of themselves regarding the proposal to provide Ukraine with Classic Hornets (ex RAAF or otherwise).

I don’t know if there is enough wind beneath the wings to get off the ground just yet (both puns intended).

Looking at this objectively, I’m sure Ukraine has enough ‘real world’ hurdles to provide enough pilots and ground crew to man their Soviet era aircraft under the current circumstances.

Add to that, is the building of momentum to start a training program for future F-16 operations, being able to provide both pilots and ground crews, and then obtain enough F-16 airframes for operational purposes.

Now people are talking about also throwing F/A-18s into the mix? Really?

I’m not saying this isn’t a proposal that can’t be considered in the future, but maybe the focus should be on getting enough pilots and ground crew to effectively operate F-16s first.

If the conflict rolls into 2024 and beyond, then yes, the F/A-18 proposal is probably more likely to fly (another intended pun).

Anyway .....
I wouldn't be putting things off if we find they do have the capacity to absorb these, even if it is strained. Beginning the process of training pilots and ground crews, considering the time and effort it takes, should have been taking place much earlier in the conflict - delays have left them in the situation currently we they are attempting a large-scale penetration without enough aircraft in support.

There is an article from Popular Mechanics where they talk about the issue and the timeframes involved:

Smith estimated eight months under the best circumstances, while a top official in the Pentagon claimed it would take 18 months to qualify pilots in the jets; still other Pentagon officials say it would take as little as six to nine months.
If we find they are willing and able, we should jump on this - delaying to 2024 or further beyond could extend this delivery to a point where Ukraine is struggling on the ground with issues in air defence and other heavy equipment.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Im not sure how they think it would take 18 months. Sure if it was an untrained raw recruit 18 months at least but this is more taking either active or former Ukrainian air force personnel who have experience flying and operating aircraft from the same generation as the F-18. The training will have more to recertify personnel and train them up on the particulars in operating and maintaining an F-18 rather then teaching them from scratch they will have a decent understanding.

Frankly I think people are overthinking it and really they have been over thinking it since the start of the conflict to over thinking Russia's capabilities, over thinking how much training will need on various systems (which often has been over estimated) and over thinking of what equipment should be given. Work out a training/support package with the aircraft ideally between Australia, Finland,Spain and the US and offer it, They will either take it or leave it, end of the day final choice is Ukraines.

Before mods jump on us might suggest any further talk re Oz F-18's to Ukraine take part in appropriate thread, Cheers
 

south

Well-Known Member
Im not sure how they think it would take 18 months. Sure if it was an untrained raw recruit 18 months at least but this is more taking either active or former Ukrainian air force personnel who have experience flying and operating aircraft from the same generation as the F-18. The training will have more to recertify personnel and train them up on the particulars in operating and maintaining an F-18 rather then teaching them from scratch they will have a decent understanding.

Frankly I think people are overthinking it and really they have been over thinking it since the start of the conflict to over thinking Russia's capabilities, over thinking how much training will need on various systems (which often has been over estimated) and over thinking of what equipment should be given. Work out a training/support package with the aircraft ideally between Australia, Finland,Spain and the US and offer it, They will either take it or leave it, end of the day final choice is Ukraines.

Before mods jump on us might suggest any further talk re Oz F-18's to Ukraine take part in appropriate thread, Cheers
Even taking a Ukrainian Mig29/Su27 driver, the Opcon would still likely be 4-6 months, given they’ve never flown a western jet before, with western weapons etc. that’s before anyone considers how long the airframes would take to make airworthy.

Of course you could probably do it faster. Methods to do this might include: lack of consolidation in the conversion syllabus, excluding parts of the syllabus, or operating at a higher rate of effort. All of those have drawbacks in some way shape or form, which ultimately would result in a reduced output standard. That decision is likely for the Ukrainians to balance.

Re training options, Australia doesn’t really have a dog in the fight. I guess you could argue there is potential to regenerating the FA-18 skill set, but at what cost to current RAAF operations. Give the jets away sure, but let someone else provide the training.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Wrong, the Ukrainians have the say and they say that ultimately the idea is to remove Russia from all areas of Ukrainian territory that it illegally occupies. It is not up to us or any other nation to dictate to Ukraine what it's ultimate objectives are. The only way to forestall future Russian aggression against Ukraine and other is to give it a very serious thrashing on the battlefield. Negotiations that give Russia any foothold within pre 2014 Ukrainian borders, works to Putin's favour and means that he will rearm and try again.
Wrong, I disagree. Even if the Ukrainians push Russia back to the 2013 borders and they take Crimera, it does not mean the Russians will just give up. Ultimately Russia will decide when they will end this war. The Ukranians can either give in completely or fight.

The will that needs to be contented is Russia's. Russia is the aggressor. Not Ukraine. Even if Ukraine wins every battle for the next 1000 days, if the Russians see this as wearing them down for a counter offensive, they will continue, even if it means for them heavy losses. If shitting on Russia on a battlefield made them lose the will to keep fighting, Russia would have lost nearly every war they have ever fought. War has losses, and Russia's ability to handle staggering losses is well known, and doesn't dampen their conviction to fight. Its part of the Russian strategy.

Russia believes it can simply outlast Ukraine and Europe. TBH Europes response and resolve has been weak. The US, has had other distractions, its not even fully bipartisan about supporting Ukraine.

Throwing in Australian F-18 challenges that context. Australia is rearming due to China, and has loads of equipment that may become surplus. Ukraine could become the destination for all surplus military equipment from Asia.

The thing that makes Australian aircraft particularly attractive is that it doesn't take away from any other capabilities in Europe, and the F-18 are completely available. It gives them a significantly large and capable fleet immediately. From beyond NATO. It is a large pool of capable aircraft and weapons that are available for immediate delivery which will likely force harsh reassessment by Russia. Its starts to feel like they aren't fighting just NATO, but the entire world.

The RAAF has basically completely transferred to the F-35 and superhornet. This is not something that requires F-35's to be ordered and delivered. The RAAF will get its last F-35 in a matter of weeks, not the a decade like say Finland or Sweden. So say ~36 Fighters from Australia, Canada, Spain and USMC others might be able to donate another squadron, with a commitment to have ongoing additional deliveries every 6-12 months.

Ex-RAAF are essentially ready for delivery today. Not just 1 or 2 airframes, but the whole logistics, trainers, maintainers chain. There are countries that able to support it immediately in the region. USMC dispersed strategy is also ideal, and the USMC operate F-18's.

If the deal with Ukraine falls through, its entirely possible the F-18 won't be sold at all, and will be placed in unmaintained storage to rot or cut up. It is RAVN that is pushing the deal, They currently have the rights to buy the Australian F-18. It now isn't clear if they ever intended to do anything else with them other than give them to Ukraine. Ukraine may appear to have, some money, to pay for aircraft. They wouldn't be free. No one is looking to really profit from it (probably just paying delivery costs), but blocking the sale to Ukraine of ex-RAAF F-18 is different from giving them away.
 

Maranoa

Active Member
Aussie F/A-18 Hornets are in 'preservation storage' with Boeing Defence Australia paid to keep them in some sort of sellable condition. Same thing is happening with the ex RAN MRH90s. It is costing Australia money to keep the Hornets, might be smart to sell them to Ukraine in this crowd funding scheme being talked about.
 
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