Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Stampede

Well-Known Member
Don’t worry. Smith is now heading up one of the most crucial defence reviews in Australia’s history. I am sure he won’t screw things up again.
Not for or against Smith but we find ourselves in a position where decisions have to be made promptly.
Waiting some months for such an important review is prudent and the upshot will no doubt be some captain picks from both Smith and Houston.

Like it or not its where we are at in Nov 2022.
Time is not our friend and we cannot turn the clock back to alter or address decisions made or not made.

Good luck to the two of them, they have an unenviable job.


Cheers S
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Actually there might be clues of a captain's pick. This weekend's Australian has a piece where Anthony Albanese flags a defence shakeup with drones and missiles.
For those who can't get past the paywall the video give you the gist of what he proposes.
Sounds like he wants to go all in on armed drones and missiles over the next 5 years.

A couple of quotes will give you an idea of where he might be going.
In an exclusive interview with The Weekend Australian, the Prime Minister criticised both the existing structure of the ADF and the failure of the previous Coalition government to bring new capabilities online quickly.

Mr Albanese said that, arising out of the government’s defence strategic review, there would be substantial new capabilities within the next five years, including a new emphasis on missiles, missile defence capabilities and drones.

At present, the ADF does not have any armed drones.

The 2020 defence strategic update declared that Australia no longer had a 10-year warning time frame for major strategic threats but this did not result in the urgent acquisition of new capabilities.

“We need more weaponry that can actually make a difference,” he said. “The (threat) time frame changed from 10 years but there was no response to that. It was as if that was an anecdote, rather than something that needed to be responded to.”
No mention of specific of what armed drones would be acquired but I would suggest the Ghost Bat would be the most likely candidate.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Hmm, pure conjecture but I think we will see a Tomahawk purchase brought forward plus a confirmation of HIMARS. I think it is more likely the Reaper purchase reinstated than a Ghost Bat purely due to the intent of rapid introduction.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I tend to agree that reinstating the Reaper may well be on the cards. Much will depend on whether an operational combat version of the Ghost Bat will be available within 5 years. That feels ambitious but developing unmanned aircraft seems to be a quicker process than building manned aircraft. The USAF is also examining the MQ-28 for their own, yet to be revealed, purposes so they may well end up a development partner.

Certainly with the publicity UCAVs have received in recent times the timing of the Australian Ghost Bat project couldn't be better. I suspect their could be a big potential market for this sought of aircraft.


And you know it must be promising because the Chinese seem to be straight out ripping off the design.

 
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John Newman

The Bunker Group
6 RAAF F-35s are currently in Butterworth for an exercise. This is the type's first deployment outside of Australia.
First RAAF F-35A overseas deployment? No, not correct.

I’m aware of at leas two other overseas deployments involving RAAF F-35A.

Cope North 2022, Guam:



Red Flag Alaska 21-3:

 

STURM

Well-Known Member
My mistake: thanks for pointing that out. The F-35s first deployment to Butterworth then and perhaps its first participation [in RAAF roundels] in a bilateral exercise with a South East Asian country.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
My mistake: thanks for pointing that out. The F-35s first deployment to Butterworth then and perhaps its first participation [in RAAF roundels] in a bilateral exercise with a South East Asian country.
No problem Mate.

Yes probably the first SEA deployment, fitting that it was to Butterworth.

I think the RAAF is pretty experienced at performing medium and long range ferry flights and deployments for the F-35A by now.

Especially the regular very long delivery flights from the US to Oz too.

A few weeks ago the 58th aircraft performed its test flights after rolling off the LM production line, only 14 to go before we get to complete the approved order for 72 aircraft.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
My bet Reaper gets ordered and Ghost bat will evolve to carry weapons.
It's not MQ-9A Reaper but the MQ-9B SeaGuardian. Big difference.

To all those talking up the MQ-28 Ghost Bat think that it's the best thing since sliced bread. It is still a research program using prototype aircraft. It hasn't gone into any form of production so those thinking that it will do this and that are just really talking about a fantasy UAV at the moment. When it goes into LRIP and there is some certainty about what type of mission and weaponry it will carry is the time to start drooling. There is no guarantee that it will even go into production. A lot of things have to happen yet. Just because it was designed and built in Australia with Boeing doesn't make it God's gift to military aviation. It has a lot of potential with the operative word being potential.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It's not MQ-9A Reaper but the MQ-9B SeaGuardian. Big difference.

To all those talking up the MQ-28 Ghost Bat think that it's the best thing since sliced bread. It is still a research program using prototype aircraft. It hasn't gone into any form of production so those thinking that it will do this and that are just really talking about a fantasy UAV at the moment. When it goes into LRIP and there is some certainty about what type of mission and weaponry it will carry is the time to start drooling. There is no guarantee that it will even go into production. A lot of things have to happen yet. Just because it was designed and built in Australia with Boeing doesn't make it God's gift to military aviation. It has a lot of potential with the operative word being potential.
Spot on mate.
The Chinese have already copied the body, don't know where they are at regards AI, but it's clear they have have hacked into its development already. Let's wait and see if and how it develops.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I am reasonably confident that the loyal wingman concept will go ahead. For a country like Australia it is pretty much essential. We are a large sparsely populated country and only have relatively small defence force to protect it. Possibly more than any other country we need autonomous vehicles.

It should also be remembered that Australia has had a long history designing and building unmanned vehicles. We built over 500 Jindivik drones from the 1950s through to the 1990s. We even built a replacement for the Jindavik. The Kalkara was co-designed by Boeing and BAE and served with the navy through to 2008.

There was also the Turana which was intended as a recoverable version of the Ikara.

In other words the Ghost Bat isn’t Australia’s first rodeo and we have had a longer history in developing this sort of aircraft than most other nations.
 

Pusser01

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I am reasonably confident that the loyal wingman concept will go ahead. For a country like Australia it is pretty much essential. We are a large sparsely populated country and only have relatively small defence force to protect it. Possibly more than any other country we need autonomous vehicles.

It should also be remembered that Australia has had a long history designing and building unmanned vehicles. We built over 500 Jindivik drones from the 1950s through to the 1990s. We even built a replacement for the Jindavik. The Kalkara was co-designed by Boeing and BAE and served with the navy through to 2008.

There was also the Turana which was intended as a recoverable version of the Ikara.

In other words the Ghost Bat isn’t Australia’s first rodeo and we have had a longer history in developing this sort of aircraft than most other nations.
I had thought that Turana had been intended as a recoverable target drone based on the Ikara. I still wonder if the box launched super-Ikara may have been a goer if ever fully developed. Cheers. Turana Target Drone HARS remote control
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Within one week Senate Estimates admitted the cancellation of the RAAF MQ-9B order the USAF FY23 programs were announced - all future buys of MQ-9 had been cancelled and many were being transferred to other agencies:

US MQ-9 Reaper Program Terminated by Air Force (va.org)

We now live in a near-peer threat environment where the MQ-9 is vulnerable.
So does Japan and they have acquired it.

Everything is ‘vulnerable’ but if that were the sole basis for acquiring a capability, the entire defence force would be equipped with nothing...
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am reasonably confident that the loyal wingman concept will go ahead. For a country like Australia it is pretty much essential. We are a large sparsely populated country and only have relatively small defence force to protect it. Possibly more than any other country we need autonomous vehicles.

It should also be remembered that Australia has had a long history designing and building unmanned vehicles. We built over 500 Jindivik drones from the 1950s through to the 1990s. We even built a replacement for the Jindavik. The Kalkara was co-designed by Boeing and BAE and served with the navy through to 2008.

There was also the Turana which was intended as a recoverable version of the Ikara.

In other words the Ghost Bat isn’t Australia’s first rodeo and we have had a longer history in developing this sort of aircraft than most other nations.
Just because you might be confident about it doesn't make it probable. Australia may have a history of making UAVs but that doesn't count for anything when one particular new type is being tested and accessed as to whether or not it has a place in the ADF ORBAT. Remove the emotional attachment you have for the capability from any analysis that you make.
Within one week Senate Estimates admitted the cancellation of the RAAF MQ-9B order the USAF FY23 programs were announced - all future buys of MQ-9 had been cancelled and many were being transferred to other agencies:

US MQ-9 Reaper Program Terminated by Air Force (va.org)

We now live in a near-peer threat environment where the MQ-9 is vulnerable.
Well have the UK cancelled their MQ-9B SkyGuardian order? Or any other orders from other nations apart from Australia been cancelled for the MQ-9B? It's a different beastie to what the MQ-9A that the USAF have been operating.
 

SteveR

Active Member
Well have the UK cancelled their MQ-9B SkyGuardian order? Or any other orders from other nations apart from Australia been cancelled for the MQ-9B? It's a different beastie to what the MQ-9A that the USAF have been operating.
We have the first MQ-4C about to be delivered with much greater maritime sensor capability than the MQ-9B which lost to the MQ-4C when the USN ran a competition some years ago. None of the countries (Uk Japan) you mention have MQ-4C. Yes, the MQ-9B has 8km range Hellfires which the MQ-4C does not but why else should we duplicate an existing capability.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We have the first MQ-4C about to be delivered with much greater maritime sensor capability than the MQ-9B which lost to the MQ-4C when the USN ran a competition some years ago. None of the countries (Uk Japan) you mention have MQ-4C. Yes, the MQ-9B has 8km range Hellfires which the MQ-4C does not but why else should we duplicate an existing capability.
There is a difference between the two as well with the Triton being a HALE UAV and the SeaGuardian being a MALE UAV. The SeaGuardian is also able to deploy sonar buoys which IIRC the Triton can't, so it's basically a one trick pony. All it can do is tell you what's on the surface and not undertake a subsurface search if required. Those Hellfires can cause problems for people if need be especially if there are no assets within significant range and we're talking Aussie distances here :D
 
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