Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

Julian 82

Active Member
The first aircraft B-21A is replacing in the USAF is the B-1B, which very much does have an anti-shipping focus, being the first aircraft to have LRASM integrated... Super Hornet was next and P-8A doesn’t have it… I think it’s a long bow to draw to say B-21A will replace B-1B as a priority, but won’t replace it’s roles…


Why would the B-21A not have a radar? B-52, B-1B and B-2A all do? B-2A is halfway through it’s radar modernisation project, adding AESA arrays to the aircraft...


If conventional, nuclear, precision strike, stand-off precision strike, anti-shipping strike and ISR missions doesn’t represent “multirole” then I guess it’s not multi-role.

The problem with P-8A being your striker are manifest, hence why no-one is using it in such a role. It’s slow, un-maneuverable, not LO in any sense of the word, has a relatively low payload for such a large aircraft, has zero chance of penetrating any kind of air defence and at least to me, is far more useful in it’s actual role.
You can add mining to that as well. A B-21 would be an excellent platform for deploying sea mines in high threat areas (e.g off Hainan Island). Keeping PLAN warships bottled up in port is much easier than trying to find and sink them.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
I think we have rehashed these before.

Why would the B-21A not have a radar? B-52, B-1B and B-2A all do? B-2A is halfway through it’s radar modernisation project, adding AESA arrays to the aircraft...
B52 also had a rear gunner. B1 is really pre stealth as we know it. B-52 was pre stealth. F-117 had no radar and the B-2 had no radar until block 20 and block 30 things were more operational.

Submarines have radar too, doesn't mean they use them the same as surface ships. I'm not trying to be definitive here, just saying, hey, its a very different setup. Its been estimated the radar alone on the B2 contributes 6-10% of its purchase and operating costs and may be the trickiest part of the project.

Unlike a F-35 which can afford emissions as a true multirole low observable aircraft that can fall back on old party tricks, B21 really becomes a sitting duck (as does the B2) if it emits pretty much anything, even a mono-pulse at the wrong time. On a platform where you are really chasing down things to 6 sigma, integrating a giant transmitter is, expensive, time consuming and problematic, particularly one you never hope to use.

If conventional, nuclear, precision strike, stand-off precision strike, anti-shipping strike and ISR missions doesn’t represent “multirole” then I guess it’s not multi-role.
All roles of a bomber. I'm pointing out its a bombing platform rather than a general multirole fighter/bomber platform. Yes, you would expect a strategic bomber, to be able to perform strategic bombing and strike. If it blows its cover, we can't expect it to fire off some AMRAAM and do some evasive maneuvers, fold its wings and high tail it out of there with a dump and burn and thunderstruck playing over coms.

How are we getting targeting data on shipping strikes? What are the rules of engagement for that? How are we EW in our land strike to degrade defenses. How are we ensuring our logistics to support this platform in its operations?

B1 is fantastic at antishipping role, because its kinda like a giant big F-111. It has range, speed, altitude. Its not trying to be particularly stealthy, but has good RCS for it size. The B2 isn't like that. But eventually the B1 will be gone and the B2 will have to take on that mission.

However, it should be noted, unlike Australia, the US has a large and quite capable naval aviation, that has some moderate antishipping capability. The USN was never really reliant on the B1 or B2 being the antishipping platform of choice.

It doesn't mean the USAF will go around on its lonesome, plinking random shipping from a B2 that is hunting targets with its radar. Either will the B21. Targets would probably need to be identified with another aircraft, like a P8... (or F-35, possibly MC-55/E7) or a ship (arg!).. I just think we need to clearly identify how that type of aircraft will work for non-nuclear Australia who doesn't have all the USAF/USN capabilities. Not that it can't do it, just that we may need to think about how and what we need to employ it in our sovereign role.

Also when would Australian deliveries of the B21 start? 2030? 2040? Its in development, I definitely think, attach and learn, but we are still some way off from MOTS and deliveries starting next week.

Should it come to pass, the howls of outrage for us acquiring a nuclear capable strategic bomber AND nuclear powered submarines, will be absolutely glorious…
Maybe we can tap this as some form of energy.

All we need then is a long range ballistic missile with hypersonic entry.
 

ADMk2

Just a bloke
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I think we have rehashed these before.


B52 also had a rear gunner. B1 is really pre stealth as we know it. B-52 was pre stealth. F-117 had no radar and the B-2 had no radar until block 20 and block 30 things were more operational.

Submarines have radar too, doesn't mean they use them the same as surface ships. I'm not trying to be definitive here, just saying, hey, its a very different setup. Its been estimated the radar alone on the B2 contributes 6-10% of its purchase and operating costs and may be the trickiest part of the project.

Unlike a F-35 which can afford emissions as a true multirole low observable aircraft that can fall back on old party tricks, B21 really becomes a sitting duck (as does the B2) if it emits pretty much anything, even a mono-pulse at the wrong time. On a platform where you are really chasing down things to 6 sigma, integrating a giant transmitter is, expensive, time consuming and problematic, particularly one you never hope to use.
They aren’t putting massive AESA wing-mounted arrays on B-2A, developing a radar aided targetting system for B-2A and not putting a radar at all on the B-21A…

All roles of a bomber. I'm pointing out its a bombing platform rather than a general multirole fighter/bomber platform. Yes, you would expect a strategic bomber, to be able to perform strategic bombing and strike. If it blows its cover, we can't expect it to fire off some AMRAAM and do some evasive maneuvers, fold its wings and high tail it out of there with a dump and burn and thunderstruck playing over coms.
Indeed, nor would a P-8A in any way whatsoever be more suitable in such a role. Nor do I think a RAAF B-21A capability would actually be an F-111 replacement personally. The capability inherent in such an aircraft is completely unheralded for RAAF and ADF more broadly. F-111 never delivered even in relative terms, the sort of capabilities such would provide us.

How are we getting targeting data on shipping strikes? What are the rules of engagement for that? How are we EW in our land strike to degrade defenses. How are we ensuring our logistics to support this platform in its operations?
The same as any other platform we intend to use in the role. ADF is hardly blind to such questions.

B1 is fantastic at antishipping role, because its kinda like a giant big F-111. It has range, speed, altitude. Its not trying to be particularly stealthy, but has good RCS for it size. The B2 isn't like that. But eventually the B1 will be gone and the B2 will have to take on that mission.
B-21A is intended for that mission just as B-1B is now and ultimately it will adopt the B-2A’s mission as well.

However, it should be noted, unlike Australia, the US has a large and quite capable naval aviation, that has some moderate antishipping capability. The USN was never really reliant on the B1 or B2 being the antishipping platform of choice.
No-one suggested they were, but when the realisation dawned on the US that it may become embroiled in a major Asia-Pacific war with a power who out-sized them in naval craft, the first thing they did was add anti-shipping capability to arguably their most decisive capability, their bomber fleet.

It doesn't mean the USAF will go around on its lonesome, plinking random shipping from a B2 that is hunting targets with its radar. Either will the B21. Targets would probably need to be identified with another aircraft, like a P8... (or F-35, possibly MC-55/E7) or a ship (arg!).. I just think we need to clearly identify how that type of aircraft will work for non-nuclear Australia who doesn't have all the USAF/USN capabilities. Not that it can't do it, just that we may need to think about how and what we need to employ it in our sovereign role.

Also when would Australian deliveries of the B21 start? 2030? 2040? Its in development, I definitely think, attach and learn, but we are still some way off from MOTS and deliveries starting next week.
No-one has suggested otherwise, but a potential opportunity to join as a development partner, I find an especially interesting turn of events.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Stingray Oz. Why wouldn't B21 have a radar?
It would also have a data link. Which means it might use its radar to send info to another platform, the AESA radars are multifunction, and no doubt it would have modes from navigating in bad weather to EW. When it is in friendly airspace, it would use it for many purposes as well. The data link would be very interesting these days to. Getting info from space, sea,land and air assets.
 

braddmlewis

New Member
Stingray Oz. Why wouldn't B21 have a radar?
It would also have a data link. Which means it might use its radar to send info to another platform, the AESA radars are multifunction, and no doubt it would have modes from navigating in bad weather to EW. When it is in friendly airspace, it would use it for many purposes as well. The data link would be very interesting these days to. Getting info from space, sea,land and air assets.
I would expect that precisely zero is known about any of the capabilities or sensor suite or weapons fit out publicly on the B-21. The AI and sensor integration potential alone is literally 10’a of years further along than even an F22/F35/B2 and there is no public realm information available on it.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I think all discussion of the B-21 is somewhat premature anyway. Looking at the scope and terms of reference of the strategic review they are focused on the period going out to 2032-33. While it maybe available to Australia in that time frame I am thinking that the review will be more likely to look less risky options.

I am thinking that a third tranche of F-35A coupled with the continued purchase of stand off weapons is a more likely outcome. The Defence Minister seems to be happy enough with Australia’s current F-35 fleet so I think he is likely to want to build on that.

I notice they are still accepting public submissions through to the end of October so I expect we will be hearing a lot more about this over the coming months.

if I were asked I would probably want a few extra aerial refuellers and P-8s as well.

 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Stingray Oz. Why wouldn't B21 have a radar?
It would also have a data link. Which means it might use its radar to send info to another platform, the AESA radars are multifunction, and no doubt it would have modes from navigating in bad weather to EW. When it is in friendly airspace, it would use it for many purposes as well. The data link would be very interesting these days to. Getting info from space, sea,land and air assets.
Much like a submarine, often you are perhaps best off on a low visibility platform, listening to other peoples emissions, rather than broadcasting megawatts of EM targeting information to sensors and weapon systems on the ground looking for you.

As mentioned, submarines have radars. They have powerful sonars. But often, they don't use either of them. They listen, and see the battlespace by listening.

Any transmissions are likely to be single pulse, narrow and tight. They may even be laser based.
The B2 radar was a massive headache.

Much of the concept of where the Americans are going is that they are cued by other sensors and controlled from a sat based command and control system, in orbit. Platforms don't need sensors, they are networked. Do that and you save ~20% of the cost of putting the sensor on a platform, and a sensor it should never used. Plus time, plus effort plus resources.

But there has been some challenges and issues with that. Hence the E7 panic buy. The US still needs to replace the B-52, B1 and B2.. So the B21 program is going to go ahead, but Australia isn't the US. How much actual sovereign capability will the B21 give us, or are we literally just only following US instructions, flying US missions, completely reliant on the US networks, sats, sensors that say in a hostile regional war this platform stays locked up on the ground.

I like the B21. Maybe we should get it. I definately think we should be a part of that program, and Australian input can solve issues between USAF/USN turf wars and also help with clarity about capabilities and ensure US follows through with production numbers.

I am just trying to hose people down before bomber erections cloud the thought process of why and how many of this particular platform and how if fits into a smaller countries systems and policy.
 

Massive

Well-Known Member
You can add mining to that as well. A B-21 would be an excellent platform for deploying sea mines in high threat areas (e.g off Hainan Island). Keeping PLAN warships bottled up in port is much easier than trying to find and sink them.
Can we wind this right back please.

The step from a bomber to provide long-range strike capability to the ADF to deploying mines in a specific countries territorial waters is a big one.

Regards,

Massive
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
The RAAF looks set to expand the C-130 fleet with an FMS request likely by years end. Not sure how many will be sought but with between 6 to 8 KC-130J refuellers, the requirement to replace C27J in the Battlefield Lifter role and of course eventually replacing the existing C130J you could be looking at a substantial number. Hard to believe we could see the Hercules as part of the RAAF for around 100 years.

ADF to fast-track expanded Hercules fleet - APDR (asiapacificdefencereporter.com)
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
The RAAF looks set to expand the C-130 fleet with an FMS request likely by years end. Not sure how many will be sought but with between 6 to 8 KC-130J refuellers, the requirement to replace C27J in the Battlefield Lifter role and of course eventually replacing the existing C130J you could be looking at a substantial number. Hard to believe we could see the Hercules as part of the RAAF for around 100 years.

ADF to fast-track expanded Hercules fleet - APDR (asiapacificdefencereporter.com)
I can see a KC-130 buy but the only ADF Aircraft they can currently refuel are the Shornets and Growlers.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
I can see a KC-130 buy but the only ADF Aircraft they can currently refuel are the Shornets and Growlers.
It wouldn’t surprise me. The Morrison government cancelled plans for additional KC-130s in 2020 in a decision that puzzled me. In the Strategic Defence Update released the same year aerial refuelling was the single most expensive air project planned out to 2040.
The ability to refuel its combat aircraft in the air was obviously the cornerstone of the Morrison governments long range air strike capability.
Additional tankers is probably the most achievable quick fix the ADF can make at the moment.
 
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Stampede

Well-Known Member
It wouldn’t surprise me. The Morrison government cancelled plans for additional KC-130s in 2020 in a decision that puzzled me. In the Strategic Defence Update released the same year aerial refuelling was the single most expensive air project planned out to 2040.
The ability to refuel its combat aircraft in the air was obviously the cornerstone of the Morrison governments long range air strike capability.
Additional tankers is probably the most achievable quick fix the ADF can make at the moment.
If I recall we had plans for an additional two KC-30A MMTT for a total of nine aircraft.
We have seven now which is still impressive compared to most medium airforces but our geography is big.
Distance is everthing

Addition refueling capacity is essential.
KC-30A or KC-130, both have different attributes.
The defence review will give some clarity


Cheers S
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
My mistake it was additional KC-30s that were cancelled by the Morrison government. I would still like to see that decision reversed as well as acquiring KC-130s
 

pussertas

Active Member
IIRC there has been a firefighting kit developed for the 130J.

Apparently its in service with two USAF National Guard Squadrons.

Its easy to fit and on the basis of one per state we would need 8 of them.
 

Aardvark144

Active Member
My mistake it was additional KC-30s that were cancelled by the Morrison government. I would still like to see that decision reversed as well as acquiring KC-130s
The KC30s were not so much cancelled by the Morrison Government in that as additional frames could not be sourced from QF and that there was a very limited source of A330s built to the same spec as those in QF, the RAAF was not interested in new build frames thus whilst outwardly the same, would essentially be a new sub-fleet to manage.
 

John Newman

The Bunker Group
It wouldn’t surprise me. The Morrison government cancelled plans for additional KC-130s in 2020 in a decision that puzzled me. In the Strategic Defence Update released the same year aerial refuelling was the single most expensive air project planned out to 2040.
The ability to refuel its combat aircraft in the air was obviously the cornerstone of the Morrison governments long range air strike capability.
Additional tankers is probably the most achievable quick fix the ADF can make at the moment.
What you’ve proclaimed is wrong, completely wrong.

And I’m not talking about you confusing KC-130 for KC-30A either.

The LNP Government didn’t cancel the 8th and 9th KC-30A, they were never on order in the first place.

Let’s look at the facts.

It was the LNP Government that ordered the five original KC-30A in the first place, in 2015 they placed orders for the 6th and 7th.

When the 2016 DWP was produced by the LNP Government, the following wording was used:

“consideration will be given to a follow-on acquisition of further air-to-air refuelled”

I’ll say that again “consideration”, how is that a firm order?

When the 2020 DSU was released, the document said that those two additional aircraft would not be proceeded with, instead more funding and sustainment would occur for the existing fleet.

All is not lost though:


The LNP Government did announce that the eventual replacement for the KC-30A fleet would be ‘larger’, they also said the C-130J and E-7A replacement fleets would be ‘larger’ too.

Maybe do a bit of research ‘first’ next time, hey?
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
IIRC there has been a firefighting kit developed for the 130J.

Apparently its in service with two USAF National Guard Squadrons.

Its easy to fit and on the basis of one per state we would need 8 of them.
A frequent suggestion. Will they be flown by RAAF pilots? Because flying firefighting aircraft is a skill that must be practice frequently to maintain competency. At what cost to their availability as war fighters, and at what ( substantial) cost in airframe fatigue?

oldsig
 
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