Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates

[John Newman]

Can anyone give a quick summary of the condition of the RAAF FA18 Fleet?
If Canada purchases, as now seems certain, 25 planes I presume they will be the oldest and most utilised airframes or are those too clapped out to consider for sale?
And how many airworthy fighters does that leave us ready for full operational service?

Here's an article from five days ago that might clear up when the transfer process will start:

U.S. approves Canada's purchase of used Australia fighter jets – deal to be completed by end of year

The relevant quote is:

"Finn indicated the DND wants to have the deal in place by the end of this year. “The idea of firming this up in the fall of 2018 was for the start of delivery of the two first aircraft to be next summer, and then quickly beyond it,” he added."

And of course the Canadian Summer next year is mid 2019, but as the article mentions, the deal should be finalised later this year, I would assume we won't see the actual schedule and other details until that is completed. I assume we will see the Hornets start to leave Oz in batches from that point onwards.

Whilst we don't know the delivery schedule for the departing Hornets as yet, we know the delivery schedule for the RAAF receiving the F-35As:

* End 2018 - 10 airframes - 2 in Oz and 8 in the US in the training squadron
* End 2019 - 18 airframes - 10 in Oz
* End 2020 - 33 airframes - 25 in Oz
* End 2021 - 48 airframes - 40 in Oz
* End 2022 - 63 airframes - 55 in Oz
* End 2023 - 72 airframes - the last 9 new build and the 8 from the US based training squadron (the 8 US based airframes could arrive earlier? But definitely by end of 2023).

And even when all 25 Hornets are delivered to Canada that still leaves the RAAF with 46 Hornets.

Cheers,

 

[King Wally]

I can see that working well John. Plus obviously the RAAF has it's Super Hornets (and Growlers) firmly in place so even if hiccups occur with the F35 there is a level of contingency some other nations could only wish for.

 

[John Newman]

I can see that working well John. Plus obviously the RAAF has it's Super Hornets (and Growlers) firmly in place so even if hiccups occur with the F35 there is a level of contingency some other nations could only wish for.

Hi Wal, I think it will work well too. I'm not particularly stressed or worried about the process of transition from Classic to F-35A and also the sale of 25 airframes to Canada.

Even 'if' the RAAF was ready to hand over those 25 Classic Hornets to Canada in 'one go' starting from mid next year, the RAAF will still have 46 Hornets, 24 Super Hornets and 11 Growlers, that's 81 combat capable airframes, plus by mid next year at least half of next years 8 F-35As should be delivered, which would bring their total to 14 airframes (more than likely the 25 Classic Hornets going to Canada might happen over a 6 or 12 month period).

As far as a potential 'hiccup' with the F-35A acquisition, I really can't see that happening at this stage of the game, sure there are some things still to be sorted, but that's not unique to the F-35 program.

One other thing that I believe will make the transition as smooth as possible is the fact that the RAAF received those two early (but expensive) airframes from LRIP6 in late 2014, getting skin in the game early has allowed the RAAF to build up four years of corporate knowledge, you can't put a price on that.

To my understanding all 72 (including the early two from LRIP6) will arrive with Block 3F software too, but there is still one piece of the puzzle that is missing for the RAAF until Block 4 is available in the early to mid 2020's, and that's the ability to carry an AShM such as JSM.

But fortunately the RAAF will have the Super Hornets (and possibly Growlers?) that are currently capable of operating Harpoon and JSOW.

The other puzzle piece missing is what happens to the JASSM capability when the Classic Hornet fleet retires? From memory the Super Hornets are certainly capable of Harpoon and JSOW (USN weapons), but not JASSM (USAF weapon), but I wouldn't imagine that clearing Super Hornets to be capable of operating JASSM would be a difficult task, if required.

Anyway, all in all, things appear to progressing smoothly for the RAAF.

Cheers,

 

[hauritz]

Here's an article from five days ago that might clear up when the transfer process will start:

U.S. approves Canada's purchase of used Australia fighter jets – deal to be completed by end of year

The relevant quote is:

"Finn indicated the DND wants to have the deal in place by the end of this year. “The idea of firming this up in the fall of 2018 was for the start of delivery of the two first aircraft to be next summer, and then quickly beyond it,” he added."

And of course the Canadian Summer next year is mid 2019, but as the article mentions, the deal should be finalised later this year, I would assume we won't see the actual schedule and other details until that is completed. I assume we will see the Hornets start to leave Oz in batches from that point onwards.

Whilst we don't know the delivery schedule for the departing Hornets as yet, we know the delivery schedule for the RAAF receiving the F-35As:

* End 2018 - 10 airframes - 2 in Oz and 8 in the US in the training squadron
* End 2019 - 18 airframes - 10 in Oz
* End 2020 - 33 airframes - 25 in Oz
* End 2021 - 48 airframes - 40 in Oz
* End 2022 - 63 airframes - 55 in Oz
* End 2023 - 72 airframes - the last 9 new build and the 8 from the US based training squadron (the 8 US based airframes could arrive earlier? But definitely by end of 2023).

And even when all 25 Hornets are delivered to Canada that still leaves the RAAF with 46 Hornets.

Cheers,

There might be some consideration now to selling up the entire F-18 fleet to Canada ... including the Superhornets.

Australia would want to hang onto the Growlers and perhaps a few of the prewired SuperHornets but an early agreement with Canada could go a long way toward supplementing the cost of another batch of F-35s.

I imagine the Canadians would jump at buying Australia's SuperHornets if they were to be made available around the mid-twenties.

 

[SpazSinbad]

This RCAF badge (I presume) says it all. 'Tis SAD indeed.

 

[Redlands18]

There might be some consideration now to selling up the entire F-18 fleet to Canada ... including the Superhornets.

Australia would want to hang onto the Growlers and perhaps a few of the prewired SuperHornets but an early agreement with Canada could go a long way toward supplementing the cost of another batch of F-35s.

I imagine the Canadians would jump at buying Australia's SuperHornets if they were to be made available around the mid-twenties.

The biggest issue for Canada buying Foxtrot Hornets would be, what do they do about the rear Seat? Introduce a Backseater Stream or leave it empty. If Canada was to buy brand new Hornets they would almost certaintly be Echos for the operational Sqns with a handfull of Foxtrots for trg.
Anyway there might be a miracle and they buy F-35s.
And we still have to order the 4th F-35 Sqn yet, future Governments may take some convincing to replace perfectly good Aircraft that the USN will be operating into the 2030s.
My money is on the Rhinos still being in RAAF service in 2035.

 

[oldsig127]

There might be some consideration now to selling up the entire F-18 fleet to Canada ... including the Superhornets.

Not very likely. The Supers were purchased as replacements for the F-111, and the F-35 as replacements for the F-18 legacy Hornets. The other 28? options to buy F-35 so far not taken are or were intended to replace the F-111/F-18F.

There have been statements along the lines of "waiting to see what options there are when they need replacing" which means they can either buy more F-35A, perhaps F-35C for the longer legs, or whatever the USA produces as the next generation - if they will allow it and if we need it. I see the Supers in use for a couple of decades yet.

oldsig

 

[oldsig127]

Not very likely. The Supers were purchased as replacements for the F-111, and the F-35 as replacements for the F-18 legacy Hornets. The other 28? options to buy F-35 so far not taken are or were intended to replace the F-111/F-18F.

There have been statements along the lines of "waiting to see what options there are when they need replacing" which means they can either buy more F-35A, perhaps F-35C for the longer legs, or whatever the USA produces as the next generation - if they will allow it and if we need it. I see the Supers in use for a couple of decades yet.

(Edit: Rats, I've done it again. Sorry Redlands)
oldsig

 

[Redlands18]

Nothing to apoligise for Mate, backs up what i said. Some people seem to think that its a done deal they will order another 28 F-35s early next decade. With a probable change to a less ADF friendly Government comming soon im a lot less certain. Hopefully im wrong.

 

[hairyman]

The US Air force dont have Hornets or Super Hornets, they are carrier aircraft. The USAF has F22s and F15 which are more powerful aircraft than the F18 series. Israel have the F15 and are still buying them. Even Singapore have them. Now might be the time for the RAAF to get some of the latest version F15. About time we got back in step with the USAF, instead of the USN.

 

[PeterM]

I wouldn't rule out the Super Hornets having a role after we get

The USN will continue to use these alongside the F-35.
Boeing Touts Block III Super Hornet's Better Range, Improved Digital Connectivity to Fleet - USNI News

If we want to retain our Growler capability, it will likely be kept inline with the USN development path. A case could be made for keeping our Super Hornets also inline with the USN.

 

[John Newman]

There might be some consideration now to selling up the entire F-18 fleet to Canada ... including the Superhornets.

Australia would want to hang onto the Growlers and perhaps a few of the prewired SuperHornets but an early agreement with Canada could go a long way toward supplementing the cost of another batch of F-35s.

I imagine the Canadians would jump at buying Australia's SuperHornets if they were to be made available around the mid-twenties.

When it come to Canada anything is possible, but realistically not probable.

Super Hornets first, even if the Oz Government does make the decision to replace the Super Hornets with the 4th Squadron of F-35As, that decision is not due until around 2024-25, and entry into service around 2030, so that's 12 years away before the Super Hornets could possibly be available for sale, so I can't see Canada getting their hands on them, unless they also decided to replace the Classic fleet with a Super Hornet fleet, not holding my breath on that one.

As far as selling the entire RAAF Classic Hornet fleet to Canada, I find it hard to see that happening too. The Canadian Government is saying they need 88 fighter aircraft, currently they have 76 Classic Hornets (out of the original 138, 20 lost and 41 not upgraded/retired). the 25 RAAF Classic Hornets (18 active and 7 for parts), should see them through.

I remember reading a while ago (can't remember where), but the Oz Government was also looking to give Malaysia a pile of Classic spare parts for their small Classic fleet (maybe we might see some 'whole' airframes go there too??).

Anyway, the saga is not over yet!!

Cheers,

 

[Todjaeger]

The US Air force dont have Hornets or Super Hornets, they are carrier aircraft. The USAF has F22s and F15 which are more powerful aircraft than the F18 series. Israel have the F15 and are still buying them. Even Singapore have them. Now might be the time for the RAAF to get some of the latest version F15. About time we got back in step with the USAF, instead of the USN.

Honestly I do not see any real advantage to Australia in purchasing any variant of the F-15 at this point.

Presently the RAAF has HUG Bugs, F/A-18F Super Hornets, EA-18G Growlers, and a handful of F-35A's in service. As more F-35A's enter service, they will replace the aged and aging HUG Bugs as the RAAF multi-role fighter. The EA-18G Growlers I do not see being replaced with anything, unless a new EW fighter is developed which exceeds the Growler in terms of capability. An EF-35D Thunderstorm EW-variant of the F-35A Lightning II might be a possibility sometime post-2030, but that would be a half-generation or more away from entering service.

Th F/A-18F Super Hornets were selected as replacements for the F-111C in the strike role because the Pigs, while on paper were still formidable aircraft in terms of range and payload, were in reality of rapidly dwindling capability in modern threat environments. One of the major issues the Pigs faced was the need for a fighter escort since long-ranged low altitude flight was no longer reliable as a tactic to evade hostile air defence systems. Being limited to the fighter escort range the HUG Bugs could provide drastically reduced the effect range of the F-111C, despite what might appear on paper. One of the advantages of the Super Hornet is that in addition to being an overall more capable aircraft, they can "self-escort" since they are multi-role fighter aircraft. Yes, both the range and max payload of the Super Hornet is less than the paper data for the F-111C, that Pig data has not be representative for some time. Plus, the new PGM and standoff munitions which can be carried by the Super Hornet provide close to the max reach the Pigs used to have, before they started requiring fighter escorts to successfully complete strike missions.

Yes, a new/modern variant of the F-15 could be selected as a replacement for the F/A-18F Super Hornets when a decision gets made some time next decade, but honestly, what would be the sense of replacing a 4.5 gen multi-role fighter with a completely different series 4.5 gen multi-role fighter? IMO it would make sense to either retain the F/A-18F Super Hornets in service, or even better, replace them with whatever is the then current version of the CTOL F-35.

IMO the areas where new F-15's might be able to out perform F/A-18F Super Hornets, the improvement is insufficient to justify the very large costs which would be associated with launching a new type of fighter into service.

 

[Oberon]

The US Air force dont have Hornets or Super Hornets, they are carrier aircraft. The USAF has F22s and F15 which are more powerful aircraft than the F18 series. Israel have the F15 and are still buying them. Even Singapore have them. Now might be the time for the RAAF to get some of the latest version F15. About time we got back in step with the USAF, instead of the USN.

Highly unlikely that the RAAF would want to get involved with yet another type (F-15). Besides, they will be getting back in step with the USAF when the F-35As start arriving.

 

[Todjaeger]

I remember reading a while ago (can't remember where), but the Oz Government was also looking to give Malaysia a pile of Classic spare parts for their small Classic fleet (maybe we might see some 'whole' airframes go there too??).

Honestly that does not sound right. AFAIK the RMAF Hornets are the two-seater F/A-18D model Hornets, so I am not certain that there would be any commonality with ex-RAAF F/A-18A/B model Hornets, even before the HUG upgrades.

 

[John Newman]

The US Air force dont have Hornets or Super Hornets, they are carrier aircraft. The USAF has F22s and F15 which are more powerful aircraft than the F18 series. Israel have the F15 and are still buying them. Even Singapore have them. Now might be the time for the RAAF to get some of the latest version F15. About time we got back in step with the USAF, instead of the USN.

"About time we got back in step with the USAF, instead of the USN" What the??

Sorry, but what are you talking about? Have you forgotten that the RAAF is currently procuring 72 (and possibly eventually 100), 5th Gen F-35A, the USAF model?

Why would the RAAF want procure 4th+ Gen F-15s? That wouldn't be 'back in step with the USAF', that would be a backward step.

Fortunately in the past (and probably in the future too), the RAAF has been able to pick and choose the appropriate aircraft for the time, be it from the USAF or the USN.

Cheers,

 

[ngatimozart]

The US Air force dont have Hornets or Super Hornets, they are carrier aircraft. The USAF has F22s and F15 which are more powerful aircraft than the F18 series. Israel have the F15 and are still buying them. Even Singapore have them. Now might be the time for the RAAF to get some of the latest version F15. About time we got back in step with the USAF, instead of the USN.

The RAAF would've looked at the F-15 very closely when they were undertaking the Mirage replacement program which the Hornet won. I would strongly suggest that what didn't get the F-15 across the finish line then equally applies now. Cost - both initial acquisition cost and sustainment cost. It's not as though the ADF has an endless supply of money, although some people appear to think so and that comment is aimed at no one in particular

 

[John Newman]

Honestly that does not sound right. AFAIK the RMAF Hornets are the two-seater F/A-18D model Hornets, so I am not certain that there would be any commonality with ex-RAAF F/A-18A/B model Hornets, even before the HUG upgrades.

Hi Tod,

Here's the link:

Australia to invest in RMAF Base Butterworth | Department of Defence Ministers

The relevant quote is:

" * provide further F/A-18 spare parts to assist with the sustainment of Malaysia’s fleet."

Definitely spare Classic Hornet parts from the RAAF to RMAF (as far as 'whole' airframes, I did put a question mark there).

Cheers,

 

[SpazSinbad]

Well at least one AVM (DAVIES CAF) did not forget that not only is the RAAF an expeditionary force internally but that F-35Bs MAY BE in the mix of possibles for the last TRANCHE. We find out in a few years.

"...In a country the size of Australia, we are an expeditionary force...." 06 Feb 2018 From the Source: Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Leo Davies - Australian Defence Magazine

 

[Todjaeger]

Hi Tod,

Here's the link:

Australia to invest in RMAF Base Butterworth | Department of Defence Ministers

The relevant quote is:

" * provide further F/A-18 spare parts to assist with the sustainment of Malaysia’s fleet."

Definitely spare Classic Hornet parts from the RAAF to RMAF (as far as 'whole' airframes, I did put a question mark there).

Cheers,

Still does not sound right, which is not (quite) the same as saying that the RAAF would not do it. To me, that would be like using a Holden Commodore (VK) SL sedan as a source of spare parts for a Holden Commodore (VS) Acclaim sedan...

I suppose some of the subcomponents might be the same between the two different models (produced a decade apart). IIRC the APG-73 radar fitted to the RAAF Hornets during the HUG programme is the standard radar fitted to the F/A-18C/D Hornets (and early Block I F/A-18E/F Super Hornets). Not sure how many other pieces remain in common and would still be usable.