Royal Australian Air Force [RAAF] News, Discussions and Updates
John Fedup
The Bunker Group
So the lost EA-18G was a separate acquisition from the Shornet fleet? If so, how many Growlers were bought?
SpazSinbad
Active Member
There is perhaps some confusion. I'll have to dig out numbers so here is the first effort. A dozen new build Growlers cost 1.5 Billion then Oz dollars according to 2013 White Paper. I'll have to dig out 'pre-wire costs later - no time....
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Yes, Spaz has covered it but in summary, we bought 12 F-18F followed by 12 F-18F which were prewired for conversion to Growlers. Later it was decided to just go ahead and buy the Growlers immediately
A44-201 to A44-212 are standard F-18F
A44-213 to A44-224 are F-18F with extra wiring. These were to be converted when the F-35 entered service but instead...
A46-301 to A46-312 are the EA18-G
The prewired block are rather more than just wired. Sensor bulges and other external fittings were also installed - for example when they first arrived you could identify the second block aircraft (A44-213 et seq) by the slightly lower position of the serial number which appears to have been moved below the new (EF-18) fairing between the tail plane leading edge and trailing edge of the wing.
oldsig
I would say that the withdrawal from service of a Rhino for conversion to a Growler is less of an issue now than it was a few years ago. The driving factor now would be to find the most economical solution to replacing the lost Growler.
Most of the expense of converting a Rhino may well have been acquiring the parts needed for the conversion. From what I have read they lost two ALQ Jamming pods but the rest of the equipment from the burnt out Growler might be salvageable.
If Boeing of General Electric are culpable for the loss of the Growler than a reasonable settlement could be for Boeing to convert one of the existing Rhinos using parts from the written off aircraft at their own expense.
Most of the expense of converting a Rhino may well have been acquiring the parts needed for the conversion. From what I have read they lost two ALQ Jamming pods but the rest of the equipment from the burnt out Growler might be salvageable.
If Boeing of General Electric are culpable for the loss of the Growler than a reasonable settlement could be for Boeing to convert one of the existing Rhinos using parts from the written off aircraft at their own expense.
Redlands18
Well-Known Member
Just so everyone is clear as to what happened
Around 2006-07 Australia ordered 24 F/A-18F to replace the F-111s in 82 wing. In 2009 it was decided to prewire the last 12 Aircraft for possible conversion at a later date to EA-18Gs. In 2013 Australia ordered 12 new build EA-18Gs instead of converting the F/A-18Fs. For a grand total of 36 Aircraft.
Around 2006-07 Australia ordered 24 F/A-18F to replace the F-111s in 82 wing. In 2009 it was decided to prewire the last 12 Aircraft for possible conversion at a later date to EA-18Gs. In 2013 Australia ordered 12 new build EA-18Gs instead of converting the F/A-18Fs. For a grand total of 36 Aircraft.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
I want to know why there is an assumption about salvageable parts from the burnt Oz Growler and why they can be re-used. Sure some parts may be usable but if there is any doubt about their robustness for use in actual flying aircraft then they will remain on the ground as school avionic toys. In good time we will be informed about ANY replacement for the lost Growler. Why speculate when there is not enough information? Sure there may be options however I'll insist that a pre-wired Super Hornet has never been turned into a Growler. Why do WE need to be guinea pigs for that seemingly fraught process.
BTW thanks for the info about 2nd Shornet batch 'oldsig127'. The wing of a Growler compared to Shornet is also said to be different (can't recall exact details).
BTW thanks for the info about 2nd Shornet batch 'oldsig127'. The wing of a Growler compared to Shornet is also said to be different (can't recall exact details).
All I can recall is that the EA18-G wing has no wingtip launch rail (and none can be fitted) which is replaced by the ALQ-218 RWR/ELINT/ESM. I assume that this means some physical differences in the wing tip area which would require rebuild/replacement if they were to be converted.
While the pods make a Growler obviously a Growler, the two F-18F blocks wings aren't visually different to a nosy ex-soldier from usual snooping range which is not to say that there aren't extra access panels etc that I haven't noticed!
oldsig
SpazSinbad
Active Member
That is 'correct' (I do not know about upgrading our Shornets - yay or nay). Australia is helping develop NGJ Next Generation Jammer with USN etc. and the Australian Government promise is that our Growlers will stay in lock step with USN Growlers (there is reference to this already on this thread IIRC). At beginning of the 2017 a 250 million dollar agreement was signed with USN about NGJ development. AND AHAH our Growlers WILL GET BLOCK III upgrades according to second excerpt below.
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SpazSinbad
Active Member
Six Page ARTICKLE about our RAAF Growlers from OzAvMag Jun 2018 mentioned above in excerpt, now attached herein. STARTING FROM SCRATCH ANDREW MCLAUGHLIN
Thanks for posting that Spazsinbad. The only thing I can add to my post above is the reason as to why the Super Hornets are not being upgraded is because they are to be replaced by F35's in the future.
Takao
The Bunker Group
Interesting that this theory (pull 'stuff' out of crashed airframe into new one) was in the Black Hawk acquisition, but airworthiness standards dictated otherwise. Hence (partially) A25-303.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
Further to Oz NGJ news there is this spiral upgrade path (last paragraph in the report cited):
John Newman
The Bunker Group
Upgraded Growlers?
I think it's clear that the Growler fleet will be kept in lock step with the USN fleet (as others here have mentioned), the Growlers would appear, at this stage, to have a full RAAF service life ahead of them (30+? years), including NJG and whatever Blk III mods the USN performs to their Growler fleet.
As to a possible replacement for the crispy Growler, well that's something that we probably won't know about for a while (year or so?), no doubt there will eventually be recommendations to Govt by the RAAF to replace or not, and again we don't know if the initial buy of 12 airframes included attrition.
Upgraded Super Hornets?
Well that's where the crystal ball is very cloudy and murky too! Firstly I wouldn't expect a decision on the replacement of the Super Hornet fleet until around the mid 2020s, lets not forget the RAAF will have it's hands full with the conversion of the Classic Hornet fleet to F-35A between now and late 2023 (when the last F-35A is due), I think the last thing the RAAF would want to do is 'tinker' with a relatively small fleet of aircraft that will be 'the main game' at least until the F-35A fleet reaches FOC.
I would imagine that the Super Hornet fleet will still have the various 'incremental' Blk II upgrades that happen (if I remember correctly the RAAFs Super Hornet fleet has recently gone through an upgrade to keep in lock step with the USN).
But even 'if' the Government does decide to retain the 24 Super Hornets in operations for a full service life, the path from Blk II to Blk III is going to be long and slow regardless.
The USN currently has between 650-700 Super Hornets and Growlers, all Blk II except the first 130 or so Super Hornets which are Blk I.
Things are going to get pretty messy for a decade or so, the USN will have Bk I, II and III all in service at the same time, existing build and new build to Blk III standard, and also on top of that is the Service Life Modification (SLM) program that is just starting to, which will extend the lives of the oldest (most used) airframes from 6000hrs to 9000hrs.
Long Live the Super Hornet!
Here's a couple of other links to read:
Block III Super Hornet upgrades to begin this spring
And this:
http://australianaviation.com.au/20...-to-extend-us-navy-super-hornet-service-life/
And this too:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...r-plan-for-the-f-a-18e-f-super-hornets-future
As I said, things are going to get pretty messy for a while to come until all the various life extension and Blk upgrade programs settle down, which will be well into the mid 2020s in my opinion.
I imagine that the Government/RAAF keeps performing the incremental Blk II upgrades to the fleet (to at least keep in step with USN Blk II airframes), but beyond that, if they do decide to keep the Super Hornet fleet, it also has to look at the SLM program and Blk III upgrades that could see a substantial number of the fleet 'out of service' while those programs are being performed, is it worth it??
Personally, I hope the decision is made in the mid 2020s to proceed with the 4th Sqn of F-35A (18 airframes plus the 10 attrition airframes, total 28), and retire the Super Hornet fleet without wasting all that money on SLM and Blk III.
And at the very least keep the 12 pre wired Super Hornets as both a possible expansion of the Growler fleet and future attrition replacement airframes, as to the 12 standard Super Hornet airframes, sell them back to the USN or break them down for spares.
Anyway, just my opinion of course too!
Cheers,
I think it's clear that the Growler fleet will be kept in lock step with the USN fleet (as others here have mentioned), the Growlers would appear, at this stage, to have a full RAAF service life ahead of them (30+? years), including NJG and whatever Blk III mods the USN performs to their Growler fleet.
As to a possible replacement for the crispy Growler, well that's something that we probably won't know about for a while (year or so?), no doubt there will eventually be recommendations to Govt by the RAAF to replace or not, and again we don't know if the initial buy of 12 airframes included attrition.
Upgraded Super Hornets?
Well that's where the crystal ball is very cloudy and murky too! Firstly I wouldn't expect a decision on the replacement of the Super Hornet fleet until around the mid 2020s, lets not forget the RAAF will have it's hands full with the conversion of the Classic Hornet fleet to F-35A between now and late 2023 (when the last F-35A is due), I think the last thing the RAAF would want to do is 'tinker' with a relatively small fleet of aircraft that will be 'the main game' at least until the F-35A fleet reaches FOC.
I would imagine that the Super Hornet fleet will still have the various 'incremental' Blk II upgrades that happen (if I remember correctly the RAAFs Super Hornet fleet has recently gone through an upgrade to keep in lock step with the USN).
But even 'if' the Government does decide to retain the 24 Super Hornets in operations for a full service life, the path from Blk II to Blk III is going to be long and slow regardless.
The USN currently has between 650-700 Super Hornets and Growlers, all Blk II except the first 130 or so Super Hornets which are Blk I.
Things are going to get pretty messy for a decade or so, the USN will have Bk I, II and III all in service at the same time, existing build and new build to Blk III standard, and also on top of that is the Service Life Modification (SLM) program that is just starting to, which will extend the lives of the oldest (most used) airframes from 6000hrs to 9000hrs.
Long Live the Super Hornet!
Here's a couple of other links to read:
Block III Super Hornet upgrades to begin this spring
And this:
http://australianaviation.com.au/20...-to-extend-us-navy-super-hornet-service-life/
And this too:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...r-plan-for-the-f-a-18e-f-super-hornets-future
As I said, things are going to get pretty messy for a while to come until all the various life extension and Blk upgrade programs settle down, which will be well into the mid 2020s in my opinion.
I imagine that the Government/RAAF keeps performing the incremental Blk II upgrades to the fleet (to at least keep in step with USN Blk II airframes), but beyond that, if they do decide to keep the Super Hornet fleet, it also has to look at the SLM program and Blk III upgrades that could see a substantial number of the fleet 'out of service' while those programs are being performed, is it worth it??
Personally, I hope the decision is made in the mid 2020s to proceed with the 4th Sqn of F-35A (18 airframes plus the 10 attrition airframes, total 28), and retire the Super Hornet fleet without wasting all that money on SLM and Blk III.
And at the very least keep the 12 pre wired Super Hornets as both a possible expansion of the Growler fleet and future attrition replacement airframes, as to the 12 standard Super Hornet airframes, sell them back to the USN or break them down for spares.
Anyway, just my opinion of course too!
Cheers,
Future of the Super Hornets. Well personally I don't mind them and would prefer to hold off any decision on them till say 2030 by which stage we will know one way or the other if it is worth replacing them with more F-35's or if there is any viable 6th gen aircraft well under way. I understand there is a major benefit to having a singular type especially for the smaller air forces but if you can afford it there are also benefits to having a two type fleet allowing you to get thew newest and best (if all goes right with the R&D) every 15 or so years rather then every 30 or so. Our birds still have a lot of life in the so no need to rush any decision.
That said, If we do get extra F-35A's keep the pre wired Hornets for Growler attrition/spares and sell the remaining 12 to any possible future friendly user or back to the USN. Hell keep them parked here and sell them the parts directly.
That said, If we do get extra F-35A's keep the pre wired Hornets for Growler attrition/spares and sell the remaining 12 to any possible future friendly user or back to the USN. Hell keep them parked here and sell them the parts directly.
SpazSinbad
Active Member
6 page PDF of article quoted from attached below. I did not know it can carry FIVE pods if required.
Australian Aviation Magazine July 2018 "Putting the GRRRR in Growler" MAX BLENKIN
Australian Aviation Magazine July 2018 "Putting the GRRRR in Growler" MAX BLENKIN
40 deg south
Well-Known Member
P-8A Poseidon MPA Training Commences in South Australia
http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/08/raaf-opens-state-of-the-art-p-8a-poseidon-training-centre/
Looks like another big step forward for the P-8 fleet. The RAAF really is on a roll at the moment.
http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/08/raaf-opens-state-of-the-art-p-8a-poseidon-training-centre/
Looks like another big step forward for the P-8 fleet. The RAAF really is on a roll at the moment.
When I was a kid in the Air Training Corps (RAAF Cadets), the RAAF had Lincoln bombers and Vampire jets, both British origin. These were replaced with the Canberra Bomber and Avon Sabre (British and US) which in turn were replaced by Mirage (French) and Flll (US) The Mirage replaced by the F18, (US) which are now being replaced by the F35 (US), while the F18F has replaced the Flll. In m opinion, we should be looking around for a more suitable aircraft than the Super Hornet to take on the role previously ndone by the Flll, the Canberra and the Lincoln bomber. The Super Hornet and the Lightening ll both have similar roles, in as much as both have very limited payloads etc. The Americans are looking at a bomber or light bomber, the Germans are looking to upgrade their Eurofighters to carry bigger loads as a replacement for their Tornado ( which would have been the perfect replacement for the Flll) and the Brits are working on an aircraft to replace their tornados.
We should be examining these three options, with a view to joining in on the development of the chosen aircraft, and replacing the F18F with them.
We should be examining these three options, with a view to joining in on the development of the chosen aircraft, and replacing the F18F with them.
There are a few problems though with acquiring a different type.
1. Europe isnt actually designing anything that could be described as a bomber in any form. There programs range from using UAV's with Typhoons and replacing with F-35s. The program related to the Typhoon has actually been pushed back and is intead being now utilized as a replacement its self for the Typhoon in the future.
2. The US LRS-B is a great aircraft but its a big bastard and a very costly one. At $550m a piece the government wouldnt even look at the brochure.
The only aircraft that could fill a role similar to the F-111 would be the Tornado or the F-15.
Tornado isnt in production so a restart would be costly for a design heading towards the end of its life while second hand aircraft would have limited hours and risky.
F-15 good aircraft in production so while there isnt anything wrong with the plane its self there is another factor.
WE would go from having 2 combat aircraft types/families to 3. 2 aircraft types we can handle, 3 would stretch and likely break the RAAF, Does more harm then good for a capability that can now for the most part still be filled with our current or future long range munitions.
1. Europe isnt actually designing anything that could be described as a bomber in any form. There programs range from using UAV's with Typhoons and replacing with F-35s. The program related to the Typhoon has actually been pushed back and is intead being now utilized as a replacement its self for the Typhoon in the future.
2. The US LRS-B is a great aircraft but its a big bastard and a very costly one. At $550m a piece the government wouldnt even look at the brochure.
The only aircraft that could fill a role similar to the F-111 would be the Tornado or the F-15.
Tornado isnt in production so a restart would be costly for a design heading towards the end of its life while second hand aircraft would have limited hours and risky.
F-15 good aircraft in production so while there isnt anything wrong with the plane its self there is another factor.
WE would go from having 2 combat aircraft types/families to 3. 2 aircraft types we can handle, 3 would stretch and likely break the RAAF, Does more harm then good for a capability that can now for the most part still be filled with our current or future long range munitions.