Republic of Singapore Air Force Discussions

[Aussie Digger]

Like someone said that the R-77 is a big missile that can only hit "bomber", even if its true (more likely not), when I can fire the first shot and let my enemy does the turning and soaking up their fuels, I will still have the advantage before I even consider using my medium range missiles.

The R-77 is not the "big" missile I was referring to. It is a medium range active guided missile in roughly the same class as the AIM-120 AMRAAM. The R-77 is NOT a superior or longer ranged missile than the AIM-120C5/7 missiles Singapore is using on her F-15SG's and F-16's.

The missiles I was referring to are the mythical "AWACS killers" the K-100, KS-172 and similar ilk that some people get very excited about, despite their complete lack of demonstrated performance...

 

[STURM]

Mk25,

Around 1998 oor 1999, even before the R-77 or ''AMRAAMSKI'' had entered full or widespread service with the Russian Air Force, Vympel announced that it was starting work on a ramjet version of the R-77. To date it has not appeared. Around 2003, there were reports that work had started on a version of an extended range R-77 fitted with an IR warhead, for use as an ''AWACS Killer''. That too has not appeared - whether this is due to financial reasons or technical problems is unknown. It is also unknown if like AMRAAM, the R-77 has a mid-course update feature via a data link.

 

[Bonza]

Why do you think the general concensus is that the F-22 can win in an air-to-air combat against any known fighter out there? It's all comes down to the F-22 has the ability to fire its first shot. Let me switch role and ask you if you're in an air combat situation, would you like to be the first one to fire your first shot at your enemy or would you choose to be the receiving end of the first shot from your enemy? Would you prefer to be armed with a missile that is 100 km longer than your enemy's missiles or would you prefer to be armed with a missile that is 100 km shorter than your enemy's missiles? I think you know the answers

Your questions have nothing to do with the points I was making, you've obviously made no effort to understand what's being said, so hey, think whatever you want to think. Doesn't make a difference to me.

I will say this though, you keep up the chest-beating attitude and I'll bounce you out of these forums faster than you can blink. Put some god damn thought into your posts instead of this simplistic nonsense you display over and over again.

 

[SGMilitary]

Your questions have nothing to do with the points I was making, you've obviously made no effort to understand what's being said, so hey, think whatever you want to think. Doesn't make a difference to me.

I will say this though, you keep up the chest-beating attitude and I'll bounce you out of these forums faster than you can blink. Put some god damn thought into your posts instead of this simplistic nonsense you display over and over again.

Albeit all this input anyone have any information if there are any plan to procure 2nd batch of F-15SG squadron this year and other procurement plans such as replacement for I.HAWK, RBS70,35MM AA gun, Super Puma?

 

[woofy1985]

Albeit all this input anyone have any information if there are any plan to procure 2nd batch of F-15SG squadron this year and other procurement plans such as replacement for I.HAWK, RBS70,35MM AA gun, Super Puma?

Unless MINDEF or some respectable journal like Jane's releases news, then it is all rumors. If you actually know information regarding procurement, then you are either lying or divulging classified info which is subject to state prosecution for breaking the official secrets act. That's if you are Singaporean of course. If you are not Singaporean, expect the Man in Black to come knocking on your door soon.

 

[Bonza]

Unless MINDEF or some respectable journal like Jane's releases news, then it is all rumors. If you actually know information regarding procurement, then you are either lying or divulging classified info which is subject to state prosecution for breaking the official secrets act. That's if you are Singaporean of course. If you are not Singaporean, expect the Man in Black to come knocking on your door soon.

He was asking a question, which is perfectly fine. Why do you feel the need to start bringing up lying and the secrets act and stuff like that?

 

[woofy1985]

He was asking a question, which is perfectly fine. Why do you feel the need to start bringing up lying and the secrets act and stuff like that?

I answered the question which is the best information is sourced from defence news agencies or official announcements when the ministry has openly declared that they are looking for a certain type of equipment. So the best option is to google it. However, if the question is to suggest and discuss what sort of weapons could be procured to replace the current arsenal then I really would have nothing to say about that. I'm all about accurate information from credible sources.

 

[woofy1985]

Albeit all this input anyone have any information if there are any plan to procure 2nd batch of F-15SG squadron this year and other procurement plans such as replacement for I.HAWK, RBS70,35MM AA gun, Super Puma?

My opinion is that a new batch of F-15s will be bought if there is a need to counter a predicted threat. The strike eagle which is what the SG model is based off is focused on the long range deep strike role with minimal loss to its air to air capability. Unless the SAF perceives that it requires more aircraft to handle that role or for further air superiority ( which they probably don't really need right now) then I don't think they will.

I feel air defence systems are a sensitive issue because of the limited airspace in Singapore. If you acquire a more advanced SAM then it may be seen as an offensive weapon to her neighboring countries especially if its range extends deep into another country's airspace.

 

[CheeZe]

He was asking a question, which is perfectly fine. Why do you feel the need to start bringing up lying and the secrets act and stuff like that?

It's certainly helpful to remind our non-Singaporean readers that our government controls such information very tightly. I saw nothing wrong with it. Though, I think a visit from the Men in White more likely than the Men in Black.

The MinDef site has, I think, links to SAF journals. However, I don't know if they talk about future acquisitions or, like the cyberpioneer Youtube channel, simply talk about current things. Which reminds, I need watch that mini-series they had on that channel.

 

[SGMilitary]

Unless MINDEF or some respectable journal like Jane's releases news, then it is all rumors. If you actually know information regarding procurement, then you are either lying or divulging classified info which is subject to state prosecution for breaking the official secrets act. That's if you are Singaporean of course. If you are not Singaporean, expect the Man in Black to come knocking on your door soon.

My apology but I don't think I had breached any OSA. That is just a moderated queries on future acquisition and development of Republic of Singapore Airforce. I am a Singaporean and I am fully aware of the Statutes of the Republic of Singapore.

Best Regards.

 

[CheeZe]

I hear rumours that the RSAF is planning to acquire the F35s. Is this true and if so, do we know what models they're looking at? And what will they replace, if anything?

 

[ADMk2]

I hear rumours that the RSAF is planning to acquire the F35s. Is this true and if so, do we know what models they're looking at? And what will they replace, if anything?

Singapore is a Security Co-Operation participant in the F-35 program.

No numbers or models have yet been announced that Singapore may be seeking (AFAIK) but I would suggest RSAF is looking at long term replacement of aircraft that the F=15SG hasn't replaced, meaning the remaining F-5 Tigers and F-16 fighter fleets...

Rumours have abounded of approximately 100 F-35 aircraft for Singapore and that is the number needed (roughly) to replace the F-16 and F-5 Tiger II fleets on a one to one basis, but what the eventual mix may be between the F-15SG and F-35 remains to be seen...

 

[kwaigonegin]

Singapore is a Security Co-Operation participant in the F-35 program.

No numbers or models have yet been announced that Singapore may be seeking (AFAIK) but I would suggest RSAF is looking at long term replacement of aircraft that the F=15SG hasn't replaced, meaning the remaining F-5 Tigers and F-16 fighter fleets...

Rumours have abounded of approximately 100 F-35 aircraft for Singapore and that is the number needed (roughly) to replace the F-16 and F-5 Tiger II fleets on a one to one basis, but what the eventual mix may be between the F-15SG and F-35 remains to be seen...

I'm pretty sure it would be the F-35A variant.

 

[ma5k3r]

I'm pretty sure it would be the F-35A variant.

actually makes more sense to have mix of jstol and carrier variant as well if the rumours abt lhd are true..since singapore is land scarce,a jstol version would enable a counterstrike should first attack fail to destroy air force assests on the ground or runaway unuseable....

 

[kwaigonegin]

actually makes more sense to have mix of jstol and carrier variant as well if the rumours abt lhd are true..since singapore is land scarce,a jstol version would enable a counterstrike should first attack fail to destroy air force assests on the ground or runaway unuseable....

What you say makes logical sense but I highly doubt it will transpire in reality. If they were worried about land, they would not have buy the Eagles. Of all the 4 ++ jets they evaluated the F15 SGs have the longest take off distance/landing.
While the island itself is very small they utilize it very well. Many of their highways will be use as runways in times of emergencies. As a matter a fact every once in the while, RSAF practices those skill sets on public roads. The infrastructure is there to support it.
As for F-35B/Cs on LHDs that is just not going to happen. First off it would be a very sensitive political move. I don;t think Singapore wants to start an arms race in SEA. LHA/LHD that are fully equip with F-35Bs is a VERY in your face move and an offensive weapon systems. It's also extremely expensive to operate and maintain such a weapon systems for the kind of limited threat Singapore faces and it's defence budget.
I would say 99% of the time their LHD's will be use more for disaster, humanitarian missions and troop/armor transport. Unless I'm mistaken I don;t think Singapore is in the business of mounting land invasions or air attacks on it's neighbors.

 

[ma5k3r]

What you say makes logical sense but I highly doubt it will transpire in reality. If they were worried about land, they would not have buy the Eagles. Of all the 4 ++ jets they evaluated the F15 SGs have the longest take off distance/landing.
While the island itself is very small they utilize it very well. Many of their highways will be use as runways in times of emergencies. As a matter a fact every once in the while, RSAF practices those skill sets on public roads. The infrastructure is there to support it.
As for F-35B/Cs on LHDs that is just not going to happen. First off it would be a very sensitive political move. I don;t think Singapore wants to start an arms race in SEA. LHA/LHD that are fully equip with F-35Bs is a VERY in your face move and an offensive weapon systems. It's also extremely expensive to operate and maintain such a weapon systems for the kind of limited threat Singapore faces and it's defence budget.
I would say 99% of the time their LHD's will be use more for disaster, humanitarian missions and troop/armor transport. Unless I'm mistaken I don;t think Singapore is in the business of mounting land invasions or air attacks on it's neighbors.

well,i am aware of rsaf's practice road takeoffs and landings...
going by your argument...an apache attack helicopter is classified as an offensive weapon too.there were news that as soon our neighbour up north got their mbts..rsaf requested that certain numbers of apaches be brought back asap..that was before the arrival of leopards..
it is just a hypothetical theory....just as why rsaf look at p3cs...was it because of prc's aggressive expansion of her submarine fleet or vietnams introduction of her kilo's fleet..
someone mentioned that rsn is pursuing a blue water navy..true or not...only time can tell..i would say with lhd's pending introduction,an f35 squadron would act as a counterstrike while she is at sea...but like u said...its not cheap to maintain an air group...btw jstol version could be a good choice given its ability to negate the need of runways...but then im no singapore's defence expert...just a curios onlooker.

 

[CheeZe]

ma5k3r - the Apache is considered an offensive weapon from what I remember my NS friends telling me, used to support ground operations.

The RSN is already partly blue-water capable since the LSTs have been deployed to aid anti-piracy operations in the Indian Ocean.

In regards to invasions and foreign strikes, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there's probably (though I have no evidence) contingency plans to occupy the JB end of the Causeway and 2nd Link. My dad who served in the 80s said that he believed that if Malaysia declared on us, he and his unit would be ordered across the Causeway so that the ground war was on Malaysian soil rather than in Singapore. "We don't want the collateral damage on our side," was what he said.

That leads me to believe that there's probably counter-offensive plans lying in a vault somewhere.

Regardless, I think what the RSAF wants is a shiny new modern, capable, multi-purpose fighter. It'll probably stick to regular take-off variants since VTOL capable aircraft would mean even more training for the pilots, lengthening the period before introduction to active service. Then there's the other kettle of fish of learning to do VTOL on ships at sea.

 

[STURM]

In regards to invasions and foreign strikes, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there's probably (though I have no evidence) contingency plans to occupy the JB end of the Causeway and 2nd Link.

That leads me to believe that there's probably counter-offensive plans lying in a vault somewhere.

Of course there are such plans..... however ''pre-emptive'' or ''forward defence'' rather than ''counter offensive' ' would be the right word. Even a cursory look at some of the equipment operated by the army would tell you that a large part of the stuff is intended to be used outside of Singapore, if the need arises.

SAF defence planners, especially given Singapore's size and lack of depth, would be foolish not to have any contingency plans that call for the 'fight' to be taken across the Straits of Johore. Over the years, from the 1960's onwards, a number of scenarios have led to such plans - the Malaysian Armed Forces losing its counter insurgency campaign - leading to the Communist Party of Malaya taking over the country, the Vietnamese coming south through Cambodia and Thailand to export the 'revolution', an Islamist party taking control of Malaysia, Indonesia and Malaysia - bonded by a common religion and heritage getting aggressive, etc. In addition to a possible threat from Malaysia or Indonesia [which even without the benefit of hindsight was extremely unlikely given that both countries had other pressing matters to attend to and no reason to attack Singapore], Singapore, like its neighbours was very concerned about the Vietnamese presence in Kampuchea and the Soviet presence in Vietnam.

 

[ADMk2]

actually makes more sense to have mix of jstol and carrier variant as well if the rumours abt lhd are true..since singapore is land scarce,a jstol version would enable a counterstrike should first attack fail to destroy air force assests on the ground or runaway unuseable....

What rumours are they? I haven't heard anything about the Singaporean Navy acquiring LHD's, nor have I heard anything about Singapore acquiring aircraft carriers suitable for employment of the F-35C (which of course requires catapults) as can be seen in this link:

F-35C CF-1 Catapult Hookup | Air Force News at DefenseTalk

The only F-35 rumours at all in relation to Singapore is her participation as a Security co-operation participant (which is fact, rather than rumour).

Can you offer any further insight into these rumours?

Btw, the F-35 variant capable of short takeoff and vertical landing is the F-35B and the acronym used to describe it is STOVL (Short Takeoff Vertical Landing), not JSTOL.

Cheers,

AD

 

[ma5k3r]

The only F-35 rumours at all in relation to Singapore is her participation as a Security co-operation participant (which is fact, rather than rumour).

Can you offer any further insight into these rumours?

Btw, the F-35 variant capable of short takeoff and vertical landing is the F-35B and the acronym used to describe it is STOVL (Short Takeoff Vertical Landing), not JSTOL.


Actually just speculation about F35s since it reported to be 100 units...massive amount...given that PLAAF introduction of J20s, it is going to be an interesting air warfare..
Sorry they are just speculation since F35 isn't operational yet.
In recent Euronaval 2010, ST display Enforcer 160 LHD to trade delegates..Either it is for overseas market or local consumption, only time will tell.If you do a search on internet you can see it for yourself.
With Victory class due replacement, ST did display OPV model as well..either RSN plan littorial version or otherwise, we'll see when the victory class replacement appears..
btw thanks for the correction, im sentimental towards harrier jump jet..great vstol..


Cheers