Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates

[AC AUST]

And to date, we have seen no indication that enough funds will be allocated to get anything substantial. Hopefully that will soon change. The problem is the Philippine Armed Forces has been left in such a state of neglect that it has a very, very long shopping list. For the PN, which should come first, additional helicopters, MPAs or OPVs? For the PAF, should they start with getting more basic trainers, LIFTs or ground based radars?

After spending 4 days in meetings in Manilla , it is fairly evident that they are trying from the ground up Some tenders are funded but these are for small number boats to around 18m. Internal security in the south is a strong priority.

And then you have countries like South Korea that are happy to give a long term loan to build 35 and 55m ships for PCG.

 

[niftyDolphine]

the armed forces of the philippines will surely get the money it needs in the future, especially since the government is getting a lot money from the oil/gas/mining fields.

it is just a matter of time(assuming that corrupt officials wont take all the money) that our navy will be able to buy the right ships,aircraft and other equipment to patrol our territorial waters.

but i have doubt on how navy personnel will use these resources; (1) do our admirals know how to manage and use these ships? (2) do we have officers and crews who know how to handle these new ships and its equipment.

remember that the PN has never have any major exercises using new ships. The PN should focus on its plans, doctirnes and personnel trainning first before buying expensive ships and aircraft.

 

[rip]

the armed forces of the philippines will surely get the money it needs in the future, especially since the government is getting a lot money from the oil/gas/mining fields.

it is just a matter of time(assuming that corrupt officials wont take all the money) that our navy will be able to buy the right ships,aircraft and other equipment to patrol our territorial waters.

but i have doubt on how navy personnel will use these resources; (1) do our admirals know how to manage and use these ships? (2) do we have officers and crews who know how to handle these new ships and its equipment.

remember that the PN has never have any major exercises using new ships. The PN should focus on its plans, doctirnes and personnel trainning first before buying expensive ships and aircraft.

As to the Philippine officer core I have my doubts. They have a very corrupt record even by Pilipino standards but as far as crew is concerned that will not be a problem. The Philippines’ provides one of the largest merchant marine work forces in the world where they have a good reputation. They have lots and lots of people with practical at sea experience in most aspects for manning and maintaining ships at sea and they have the facilities in country to train more. As far as major overhaul is concerned when Subic was still running they were one of the better naval shipyards at the time in the US Navy and its entire workforce was Pilipino. They have some people who still have the skills I am sure.

What the Philippines need first is the political will, then the money, and finally the desire to build a respectable and professional officer core. That is a question I cannot answer.

 

[Acadiana Pirate]

the armed forces of the philippines will surely get the money it needs in the future, especially since the government is getting a lot money from the oil/gas/mining fields.

it is just a matter of time(assuming that corrupt officials wont take all the money) that our navy will be able to buy the right ships,aircraft and other equipment to patrol our territorial waters.

but i have doubt on how navy personnel will use these resources; (1) do our admirals know how to manage and use these ships? (2) do we have officers and crews who know how to handle these new ships and its equipment.

remember that the PN has never have any major exercises using new ships. The PN should focus on its plans, doctirnes and personnel training first before buying expensive ships and aircraft.

The problem is you don't have the luxury of time. DOE is about to issue 12 contracts for drilling this year and 2 of them straddles the "Dotted line" of which the Chinese and Taiwanese have already protested. This week,US congressman Royce even mentioned last year's incident where in the Chinese Navy fired live ammo on the fishermen and "cutoff the cables" of the exploring ship. PH navy responded with an OV-10 and the trainer S211 but of course, by then they have left the vicinity. Both aircraft don't even have radar to see if there are other aircraft in the surroundings.
We don't want this thing to happen again. That is why it is imperative to have some sort of aircraft like the AMX (it has maritime strike capability and A2A) which could be available immediately and so is the Maestrale/Soldati Missile guided Frigate to put some backing on the ex-Hamiltons. We needed these things yesterday! Those other aircrafts (such as the F-16 and even F/A-50 and T-/A-50) are still years from now even if we order it today. By then they probably would have stolen one of the reefs again.

 

[Sea Toby]

The Royal New Zealand Navy Protector-class OPV cost $25,000,000 per ship (complete with parts and maintenance) and it is a lightly-armed helicopter-carrying patrol ship w/ 4 RHIBs.

Don't confuse the IPVs with the OPVs New Zealand recently added to their fleet. The OPVs cost more like USD 50 million, not USD 25 million, or in the neighborhood of NZD 85-90 million each. Keep in mind that reflects prices from the early 2000s, not a decade later. The similar Irish order for new OPVs very similar to New Zealand's in the past year ran EU 60 million each.

 

[Ananda]

Well at least those ex-Hamilton USCG cutters really being used by the Philippines Navy for their worth. Patrolling and enforcing their maritime claim, even facing opposition. From Atlanta Journal : http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/philippine-warship-in-standoff-1412149.html

Kind find amusing though looking what China say for their OPV, ' Maritime Surveillance Vessels'. Well at least, China still not send their Frigates and Destroyers. Seems their 'OPV' considered enough support for their fisherman behalf.

 

[Geo]

PH, Chinese naval vessels in Scarborough Shoal standoff
By Tina G. Santos
Philippine Daily Inquirer
9:55 am | Wednesday, April 11th, 2012

MANILA, Philippines — A Philippine Navy ship and at least two Chinese vessels were locked in a standoff for a second day at the Scarborough Shoal on Wednesday after the Philippine Navy caught eight Chinese fishing boats poaching in Philippine waters and was about to apprehend them, the foreign office said.

It said Foreign Secretary Albert Del Rosario had summoned the Chinese Ambassador Ma Keqing to a meeting to resolve the problem diplomatically.
A statement from the Department of Foreign Affairs said the confrontation happened two days after a Philippine Navy surveillance plane found the eight Chinese fishing boats anchored inside the Panatag (Scarborough) Shoal on April 8.

According to the DFA, the Panatag Shoal is an integral part of Philippine territory. “The Shoal is 124 nautical miles from the nearest basepoint in Zambales province. It is within the Philippines’ 200 nautical miles Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and Continental Shelf,” the DFA said.
To protect the marine environment and resources in the Panatag Shoal and to assert Philippine sovereignty and sovereign rights over the area as a responsible coastal state, the Philippine Navy deployed the BRP Gregorio del Pilar (PF-15) from Palawan to Northern Luzon waters on the same day to conduct maritime patrol over the Shoal.

“In the course of its patrol, PF-15 confirmed the presence of the eight Chinese fishing vessels anchored inside the lagoon of the Shoal,” the DFA statement said...[Mod Edit: Text deleted. Please do not copy whole articles, rather just copy the section to be discussed.]

If china deploys it's frigates and destroyers, Gorio is in deep deep trouble.

[Mod Edit: Please do not copy whole articles followed by an one-line from you (comments must be longer than that). Further, we do not encourage converting discussion threads into news ribbons. Warning issued.]

 

[Sea Toby]

If china deploys it's frigates and destroyers, Gorio is in deep deep trouble.:drunk:drunk

If China responds incorrectly, the US Navy will make an appearance. Keep in mind within a few weeks the Philippine Navy and US Navy have exercises planned.

As long as the Philippines don't back down and don't shoot first, the Philippines should win world opinion. Its going to be a tough nut to crack diplomatically for China to overcome the UN's 200 mile EEZ law.

 

[STURM]

If China responds incorrectly, the US Navy will make an appearance.

That really depends on a number of factors. China is already unhappy over certain moves undertaken by the U.S. which it sees as part of a grand plan to contain it and the U.S. will not want to further 'annoy' the Chinese. Unless Chinese ships resort to something drastic such as firing across the bows of Philippine ships or ramming them, I doubt if the U.S. would want to up the ante. It would really be ironic if China decides to get more aggressive or assertive in response to the deployment of the USMC to northern Australia and other moves by the U.S. to increase its presence in the region - especially given that such moves were also designed to 'deter' the Chinese.

IAs long as the Philippines don't back down and don't shoot first, the Philippines should win world opinion. Its going to be a tough nut to crack diplomatically for China to overcome the UN's 200 mile EEZ law.

The problem here is that when it comes to sovereignty issues, China is not bothered about world opinion [Tibet and Singkiang [Turkestan] are prime examples]. As far as China is concerned, the Spratleys are an indisputable part of China and it sees U.S. attempts to mediate in the dispute as meddling in Chinese domestic affairs. The Chinese strategy was to deal with the other claimants on a collective basis, using its greater 'pull' to its advantage. What happens next is anyone's guess.

 

[Sea Toby]

That really depends on a number of factors. China is already unhappy over certain moves undertaken by the U.S. which it sees as part of a grand plan to contain it and the U.S. will not want to further 'annoy' the Chinese. Unless Chinese ships resort to something drastic such as firing across the bows of Philippine ships or ramming them, I doubt if the U.S. would want to up the ante. It would really be ironic if China decides to get more aggressive or assertive in response to the deployment of the USMC to northern Australia and other moves by the U.S. to increase its presence in the region - especially given that such moves were also designed to 'deter' the Chinese.



The problem here is that when it comes to sovereignty issues, China is not bothered about world opinion [Tibet and Singkiang [Turkestan] are prime examples]. As far as China is concerned, the Spratleys are an indisputable part of China and it sees U.S. attempts to mediate in the dispute as meddling in Chinese domestic affairs. The Chinese strategy was to deal with the other claimants on a collective basis, using its greater 'pull' to its advantage. What happens next is anyone's guess.

Great. If China isn't willing to live under international law, the rest of us in the international community can boycott all of their goods. Tell Apple to build their iPads somewhere else if they wish to continue selling iPads.

 

[colay]

The Philippines should stand firm. Let China act the bully for the world to see.,Other claimant countries,will realize they have to unite and press for a multilateral forum to resolve the dispute,contrary to China's divide and conquer strategy of unilateral negotiations.

 

[Acadiana Pirate]

Poachers

The Philippines should stand firm. Let China act the bully for the world to see.,Other claimant countries,will realize they have to unite and press for a multilateral forum to resolve the dispute,contrary to China's divide and conquer strategy of unilateral negotiations.

That's right. But this is not just territorial issue but environmental also. The 8 boats were caught with thousands of giant clams, rare corals and even live rare sharks. In essence these fishermen are poachers. Numerous times Chinese fishermen are caught even in the Tubattaha Reef in the Sulu Sea. It is a World Heritage site and they use dynamite to stun the rare Napoleon wrasses, kill the rare giant green sea turtles and destroy the habitat.

Here are pictures of the current standoff and the fishermen's catch. These are poachers protected by the China Maritime Surveillance (Chinese coast guard). and currently in a stand off with the ex-Hamilton cutter.

Twitter / Raffy Tima: Live sharks found by Phil. ...
Twitter / Raffy Tima: Phil. Navy troops inspect ...

 

[STURM]

The Philippine government has been pushing for ASEAN to take a common stand against China, without success. The problem here, apart from claimants not wanting to 'piss' the Chinese off as it would jeopardise relations as a whole, and that only 4 ASEAN countries are claimants, is that many of the claimants have overlapping claims. Malaysia for example occupies territory [5 reefs, all of which are manned by troops] that is claimed by China, Taiwan and Vietnam. In 1979, Malaysian troops placed a marker on an unoccupied reef, which was removed by Vietnamese troop a few days later. There was also an incident in the mid-1990's when PAF Broncos flying over a disputed area 'bumped' into a pair of RMAF Hawks.

The bottom line is, unless China is willing to make compromises, which unfortunately seems unlikely because she knows she has the upper hand, there will be no solution to this mess. And even if the other claimants were to take a common stand or if the U.S. was to be more assertive in pushing for a settlement, in all probability, this would only serve to harden the Chinese position.

 

[Belesari]

If the PN was going to upgrade the hamiltons with modern anti-ship weapons what do you think they could afford to install on them?

I figure harpoon launchers and maybe a CIWS but what else?

 

[tatra]

If the PN was going to upgrade the hamiltons with modern anti-ship weapons what do you think they could afford to install on them?

I figure harpoon launchers and maybe a CIWS but what else?

They may already be fitted for Phalanx and Harpoon, I think.

Between 1985 and 1992 all Hamilton-class cutters underwent FRAM (Fleet Rehabilitation and Modernization) which entailed

the upgrading and standardization of the ship's propulsion systems,

the replacement of the original 5"/38 gun and Mk 56 fire control system with a more modern Mk 75 3"/62 cannon and Mk 92 fire control system, and

the replacement of the SPS-29 air search radar with the SPS-40 air search radar.

In addition, the flight deck and hangar were modified to accommodate an HH-60J Jayhawk SAR helicopter.

In addition, during the FRAM refit several units were equipped with Harpoon ASM launchers and a single Mk 15 Phalanx 20mm CIWS (close in weapon system), with all ships eventually having the CIWS installed by 1993.

To improve the Hamilton's ASW capabilities, SQR-4 and SQR-17 sonobouy signal receivers and passive signal processing systems, while the ship's defenses were augmented with the addition of a SRBOC (super rapid blooming overhead chaff) launcher.

In late 1993 it was decided to refocus the ship's mission on more traditional Coast Guard duties and all ASW, sonar, missiles were removed. This refit was accomplished by 1994.

In addition, the original Mk 67 20mm cannons were replaced by improved Mk 38 25mm cannons

Hamilton-class High Endurance Cutter

 

[Dpeacemaker]

I believe Philippines can best modernize and best protect their sovereign country if they produce their own navy boats, ships, missiles, tanks, weapons, rockets, torpedoes, and etc.

 

[Belesari]

I believe Philippines can best modernize and best protect their sovereign country if they produce their own navy boats, ships, missiles, tanks, weapons, rockets, torpedoes, and etc.

They cant do that it would also be insanely expensive. You cant just build a defense industry. Building things like tanks, ships or aircraft means Knowledge which you wont have.

The philippines are fine buying from us in the US. We have had strong ties for a long time.

Whats more its impossible for the PN to defened against china by itself. Thei main focus needs to be killing the insurgency that is plaguing them.

 

[Belesari]

They may already be fitted for Phalanx and Harpoon, I think.



Hamilton-class High Endurance Cutter

I thought those were removed because of the cost of operation? Hell i thought the harpoon launchers were removed a long time ago.

 

[Dpeacemaker]

Philippines military modernization to protect its sovereign country

I have no objection on the Philippines on buying military equipment from USA. I am a former filipino now a US citizen. Since Philippines is a poor and developing country. It would be wise for the country to partner with US, Taiwan, South Korea, Vietnam, Indonesia, Pakistan, India and other country on technological transfer and partner production of military defense equipment. So in the future it can develop its own military defense equipment.

 

[Sea Toby]

I thought those were removed because of the cost of operation? Hell i thought the harpoon launchers were removed a long time ago.

The Hamiltons are fitted for but not with harpoons. When you price the costs of harpoons and Phalanx CIWS, you will understand why the USCG kept them as they are still useful and can be installed on other USCG ships. If the Philippines want harpoons and Phalanx CIWS, buy them from their manufacturers.