I agree with you that the SeaRam is the most logical and best way to go for the PN instead of other fancy expensive missile systems in terms of upgrading the ex Hamiltons armaments...
Philippine Navy Discussion and Updates
- Thread starter gforce
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Pakistan is also wanting to upgrade the OHPerrys SAM capability, which had their Standard missile single rail launchers removed. And they are facing similar problems with a likely SeaRam upgrade too.
When the US Navy removed the single rail launchers from the FFG-07s it was their intention to upgrade their Phalanx CIWS with SeaRam. Doing so would provide these ships with some self defense SAM capability. And would have cost considerably less than installing Evolved Sea Sparrow SAM capability.
Unfortunately, the Congress did not see doing so as being cost effective considering the age of the guided missile frigates. The US Congress would rather buy new warships which would provide more jobs than upgrading ships 30 years in age. The USA isn't Pakistan or the Philippines searching for the lowest cost solution.
When the US Navy removed the single rail launchers from the FFG-07s it was their intention to upgrade their Phalanx CIWS with SeaRam. Doing so would provide these ships with some self defense SAM capability. And would have cost considerably less than installing Evolved Sea Sparrow SAM capability.
Unfortunately, the Congress did not see doing so as being cost effective considering the age of the guided missile frigates. The US Congress would rather buy new warships which would provide more jobs than upgrading ships 30 years in age. The USA isn't Pakistan or the Philippines searching for the lowest cost solution.
Acadiana Pirate
New Member
I thought you guys disagreed on equipping the ex-Hamiltons with "fancy expensive missile system" and yet you guys are suggesting a SeaRam (a point defence missile system) in place of a Phalanx? Well, you can buy 2 ex-Hamiltons for the price of a Sea Ram. A Sea Ram with its automated system (based on Phalanx block 1B and 11 missiles) can cost up to $25 million. Phalanx can cost 10-12 million depending on the block.
The Sea Ram is an excellent system with its extended range of around 10km. I would prefer seeing it on bigger capital ships like a Galicia LPD to complement the Goalkeeper CIWS or Phalanx and have a multi-layered air defense system.
Being a retired Coastie, I agree. We need cutters/ships more than we need SAMs. But for those who wish to upgrade the Hamiltons with SAM capability, I don't see a cheaper alternative outside of a manpad alike the RBS-70. Even the new Bertholfs, the new NSC cutters replacing the Hamiltons, are devoid of any SAMs.
Without any doubt the Philippines and NIgeria have done very well buying the Hamiltons for the price of training the crew and refitting the ship. Upgrading with missiles will cost more, and new ships much, much more...
Sir, with your permission, i would ask again a question. if the two hamilton that was bought by the Philippine Navy would be upgraded to detect submarines or they have helicopters that can detect submarine, how can a hamilton class cutter can defend itself if he is attack by submarine? or he is fired by a torpedo how can he protect itself?
A more effective but more expensive solution would be going for a stabilised mount, like SADRAL or SIMBAD, for the Mistral.
Torpedo decoys and evasive maneuvering. Not sure how evasive maneuvering helps against modern torps though.
To know when to use torpedo decoys, you must first detect the torpedoes. That means having passive sonar or hydrophones aboard the ship.
Let's reflect more on what the Hamilton class ships are to the Philippines. It's a large ocean patrol vessel with extended range and great seakeeping abilities. The helicopter deck can be used to increase its search and rescue capabilities. It's main armament is a 76 mm gun, it's secondary armaments are even smaller guns.
While large enough to install more armaments and weapons systems, why do so? It has never been a multi mission frigate, not for over 40 years in the USCG.
Yes, I was assuming that the targeted ship already had sonar
. Does anyone still equip their ships with hydrophones as opposed to a full spec sonar?Precisely my point, I've never offered the opinion that the Hamiltons should be fitted out with missiles or a CIWS. They provide the PN with a much improved capability to patrol its waters against peacetime threats and should be used as such. Beyond maybe adding non-deck penetrating 20mm/30mm guns or a electro-optical sight to improve surveillance capabilities, I don't see the point in spending cash on the Hamiltons especially given that there are other areas that urgently require funding and that the Philippines is not likely to be involved in a shooting war with anyone. The biggest problem the PN faces is the inability to adequately patrol its waters due largely to the age of its fleet and the Hamiltons are perfect for that role. IMO, the next step would be for the government to get a class of newly built OPVs, that in the longer term would be cheaper to operate and maintain than the Hamiltons.
Perhaps the Philippine members here can provide us with some insight as to what the PNs priorities are, after getting a 2nd Hamilton.
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Acadiana Pirate
New Member
The Philippine Navy have 5 new multi-role helicopters arriving before the end of the year. I believe 3 of these are for the ex Hamiltons and 2 are for the Coast Guard. They may opt to settle for the ASW frigates they checked out in Italy and Spain the last 2 weeks after they were given a go signal to start shopping and use the $1.7 Billion coffer for modernization. The Italians offered them the Lupo class-Maestrale (for ASW) and Soldati's (no ASW but more Otomats). And then the Spaniards offered them the Descubierta class corvettes and Santa Maria Frigates (Similar to OHPs). They also looked at the M-11 Diana, a converted MCM support ship and the LPD Galicia which the PN is very interested. For Maritime Patrol Aircraft, PN was interested Italy's ATR-42 which is widely used by a local airline Cebu Pacific and also looked at Piaggio 180-Avanti.
The two Hamiltons will enable the PN to patrol West Philippine Sea and PH's oil and gas fields on a consistent basis which was not done before because of lack of assets. They may upgrade the Hamiltons modestly but I believe once they buy a few Maestrale's they will use this for its ASW patrol needs.
The two Hamiltons will enable the PN to patrol West Philippine Sea and PH's oil and gas fields on a consistent basis which was not done before because of lack of assets. They may upgrade the Hamiltons modestly but I believe once they buy a few Maestrale's they will use this for its ASW patrol needs.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
The Key Point is the USD 1.7 bio is for overall armed modernization for all three branches and not just for Navy alone. The wish list is high, the potential offered is also high. But they have to be very careful to find something that they can support for long term operation. Getting ASW Frigates means much higher operating costs than 'say' ex CG cutters or corvettes. Same thing as with the Air Force, that operating F-16 will create much more expensive support infrastructures than 'say' operating LIFT.
And to date, we have seen no indication that enough funds will be allocated to get anything substantial. Hopefully that will soon change. The problem is the Philippine Armed Forces has been left in such a state of neglect that it has a very, very long shopping list. For the PN, which should come first, additional helicopters, MPAs or OPVs? For the PAF, should they start with getting more basic trainers, LIFTs or ground based radars?
Acadiana Pirate
New Member
True Storm, but what recourse do they have? They are sitting on a pot of gold and they need to absolutely ramp up at what ever reasonable cost. The return by providing credible deterrence would return a thousand times. The estimated gas find in the Reed Bank alone was originally estimated to be 3 trillion cu.ft. but now have been revised to 10+ with a potential to go as much as 30+ trillion. That is as much as half a trillion dollars(Asian price of $15 per thousand cu.ft.). Not including another half a billion bbls of oil. What about the rest of Palawan and Sulu sea? A Taiwanese paper even quoted that we don't deserve these find equating us as the blind man sitting on a pot of gold so this is free game.
Spain's Descubierta's and Italy's Minerva corvettes could provide some reasonable ASW platform without getting into the more complicated and costly ASW of Maestrale's. But these ships are available for the taking and it's being offered and I would presume at reasonable price similar to Peru's price of $38 million dollars for 2 Lupos a few years back. Or just purchase the Soldati's which does not have ASW but pack a decent punch with it's 8-cell Otomats,127m gun,Sea Sparrow SAMs, and twin Dardo CIWS.
Spain's Descubierta's and Italy's Minerva corvettes could provide some reasonable ASW platform without getting into the more complicated and costly ASW of Maestrale's. But these ships are available for the taking and it's being offered and I would presume at reasonable price similar to Peru's price of $38 million dollars for 2 Lupos a few years back. Or just purchase the Soldati's which does not have ASW but pack a decent punch with it's 8-cell Otomats,127m gun,Sea Sparrow SAMs, and twin Dardo CIWS.
Ananda
The Bunker Group
If I may add on this, 'will the Philippines Politicians and Public support that view ?'. The Nature of Military spending much depends on Political will (as much as Economic condition). In developing countries (especially with 'vocal' political environment) this will result with many 'vocal' NGO's (which many actually a vehicles for certain political agendas), reacted negatively with the increase on military spending.
Many NGO's in developing countries (especially with democratic environment) basically filled with 'unemployed' activists that have strong 'negative' attitude to the military on their nature. Those idiot's are kind of people with 'vocal' attitude that maintain hard stance to military because usually its 'sell' well with the agenda of their 'liberal' foreign donors.
You can't argue with them that Military budget only represent 2%, or 1.5%, or even below 1% as justifications. In those NGO's mind. developing nations should abolished their Military, and spend the resources for 'liberal' social agenda. If Philippines want to increase their Military/defense capabilities, then Philippino's must decide whether they have the will for that, or distracted by some 'liberal' cloaked as humanitarian agenda from the NGO's.
one of the reason why philippines dont give more funds to the military is because of its past....remember that Ferdinand Marcos use the military to secure his political power...the Pilipino is afraid that the same thing might happen again....for Pilipino the power of the people should be grater than the power of the military...it must be controled at all times....does........ slowing the militarys modernization......but such action is one of the reason why the goverment...does not have a full control of the country...rebellion never end.
Acadiana Pirate
New Member
It boils down to one thing....leadership. The Aquino was voted in with confidence with a platform of transparency, getting rid of corruption and basically to run a clean and vibrant government. I believe Aquino has the resolve to catapult the Philippines from being the "sickman of Asia" to a prosperous and being an economic tiger. Today, IMF has declared Philippines to be a creditor nation. It is part of the team of creditors bailing out the European countries such as Greece. Having a healthy coffer of 80 Billion dollars and rising, it won't be long before it will leaf-frog most of its ASEAN neighbors including Indonesia. HSBC has even predicted that by 2050 it will catapult itself from #43 to #16 economic power of the world. Leap-frogging all ASEAN countries including Indonesia and Australia and could be as big as Russia. That is a tall order. But everything is pointing at the right direction. This is also not counting the potential gas and oil find in Reed Bank and the rest of Palawan vicinity and Sulu Sea exploration. So much is going for them but will have to put aside or make the internal problems such as communist and Moro insurgencies second fiddle.
I am not a fan of Aquino but I see him doing the right things and have placed some decent people running the government. Again, it boils down to leadership and its resolve.
I am not a fan of Aquino but I see him doing the right things and have placed some decent people running the government. Again, it boils down to leadership and its resolve.
I would imagine that one of the main reasons the AFP has been underfunded is due to the the state the economy has been in for more than a decade. Operations in Mindanao over the years have also eaten up a significant part of the budget.
Won't be long? The Philippines are still at least 50 years away from Russia to say the very least, and that's if they can maintain their current growth rates which many countries cannot for 40 years straight. You are asking your current president to "catapult" your country into prosperity? You'd be lucky to see the Philippines become a first world country in your lifetime.
I can't see them overtaking Indonesia neither based on growth rates.
You also fail to take into account that the Philippines isn't the only country growing. Its' biggest threat to it's gas and oil fields is China, which by then is predicted to be a mega superpower. Even if the Philippines is #16th by then, China will be #1.
Acadiana Pirate
New Member
I was just quoting CNN's report on HSBC's prediction.
World
I would take it with a grain of salt.
On the contrary, their growing Business Processing Outsourcing and OFW remittances is growing by leaps and bounds and the mining industry is about to take off. Their stock boards are the hottest in Asia last year. Just second in the world to Wall Street's Dow Jones.
This March, PH is selling two drilling rights that China just objected. US and the Philippines are ramping up for another military exercise in the Southern Philippines. Looks like it will get hotter!
Do you use a translator or something? because your posts are a little bit hard to read. I am not certain, but I find it hard to believe the Philippines "stock boards?" are the second largest in the world.
Acadiana Pirate
New Member
I used two idiomatic expressions 1) a grain of salt means view it with skepticism. 2) Stock boards or bourse or stock exchange.
I find it hard to believe also that they could be the second largest in the world. But you are wrong. You are reading it upside down. Largest was spelled "h-o-t-t-e-s-t.
We can never understand each other, I am a southern redneck and you must be a crocodile dundee?