It is very likely that the SPS-40 long range radar and Phalanx CIWS will be included with the upcoming transfer of the USCGC Dallas together with any other major communications and sensors , also there is currently a negotiation underway to return and deliver back all the major equiptments that were removed from the former Hamilton cutter prior to it's transfer last year to the PN due to the Philippine governments request ...Hopefully with the Dallas the Philippines get the Phalanx CIWS which can be cross decked with the other cutters... If necessary, I suspect the same can be said with the SPS 40 radar as well... Things aren't as bleak as some imply concerning such equipment with the Hamilton if the Dallas is transferred with them...
There is no amount of modifications which will make these two ships into major combat ships. They were never designed to be major combat ships even when they were new. What they are still good for is showing the flag, enforcing the law, search and rescue, and for detecting military intrusions so that they can then call in and then help control land based air-craft, if you have them to call.Long range 2D air Search., with just bearings and distances.
Good enough to Search and Manually track the embarked helicopter at longer ranges than the shorter range MK 92 CAS radars with automatic Tracking capabilities. Good enough to Search, Manually track, and Manually guide interceptors to a suspect drug traffic aircraft.
It's not good enough to be used to Track and Guide air to surface missiles with a Mk92 fire control system at anything. It's not good enough to Search and Track incoming missiles either.
I doubt the Philippine Navy will ever place SM1 or SM2 surface to air missiles aboard these ships, and if they did they would want a SPS-49 radar with MK 92 Mod 6 fire control system.
If Sea Sparrows missiles are placed aboard, which I believe is more likely, they would need to install MK91 fire control system and radars instead, or upgrade the MK 92 to Mod 12, again requiring a SPS-49 radar.
Any other Guided surface to air missiles would require different fire control systems and radars.
RAM, SeaRam, and Phalanx CIWS don't need a SPS-40 radar if they are the choice for air defense. Neither does Harpoon surface to surface missiles. In fact, the existing MK 92 Mod 1 fire control system is capable to launch them as is, all that's needed is the missiles and launchers.
So the SPS-40 provides very little additional war-fighting capability.
Sir i would like to ask this question, if the 2 hamilton cutter that would be using by the PN can be upgrade so that they can detect submarines?As I wrote before, SPS-40 radar isn't good enough in that type of electronic warfare environment anymore. You need SPS 49 and an upgrade of the MK 92 to Mod 6.
In a peaceful environment, like off the US coast, SPS-40 will give you an acceptable long range "air search". That's why I can't understand all this hoopla over the missing SPS-40 radar. Don't they really need something better, whether or not they install guided surface to air missiles on these ships?
Yes, and No. Detection and prosecution of enemy submarines are different concepts.Sir i would like to ask this question, if the 2 hamilton cutter that would be using by the PN can be upgrade so that they can detect submarines?
We finally have some real "monetary" numbers to answer that question.Do you know how much the Philippine government paid for the Hamilton, plus training cost?
Sorry, I'm very lost here. I didn't get the part about the need for two hydrophones in the water. Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying that unless thermal conditions were perfect or the sub was very noisy, a single ship with only an active/passive bow sonar would have an almost impossible chance of detecting a submarine?YEven using passive sonar, you'll need two hydrophones in the water, that means having two ships with sonars, two helicopters with dipping sonars, two sonar buoys, or any combination of two sonar sources in the water within detectable range of the sub. One ship with a single helicopter on deployment in the area isn't enough. That's the reason many US Navy ships have large hangers for two helicopters, even with their tow arrays.
Ever heard of radio direction finding using two or more receivers to triangulate? The same applies with sound under water. They will know there is a submarine around with one, but not exactly where. This is basic 101 ASW science. There is a reason why ASW aircraft drop more than one sonobuoy. There is a reason why few OPVs or cutters don't have much ASW equipment outside of obstacle/mine avoidance sonar dead ahead. There is a reason why navies which take ASW seriously have ASW aircraft.Sorry, I'm very lost here. I didn't get the part about the need for two hydrophones in the water. Correct me if I'm wrong but are you saying that unless thermal conditions were perfect or the sub was very noisy, a single ship with only an active/passive bow sonar would have an almost impossible chance of detecting a submarine?
I'll agree that these soon to be retired Italian frigates are capable warships. The Maestrale have great antisubmarine equipment. The Soldati lack most of the antisubmarine kit, but have twice as many surface to surface missiles. I'm not sure which one the Admirals would prefer. How about some of each? How much cash does Italy want for them? Can the Philippines afford them?I believe the Philippine Navy will use these ex-Hamiltons to have constant presence in these area especially the area from the Malampaya gas fields to the Mischief Reef area to provide some deterrence and constant watch of the Chinese Navy looking for opportunity to quickly steal a reef or a shoal. The Reed Bank area will be the next flash point as PLAN was seen with 3 warships just last month. They know this is where the next gold mine will be
The Italian frigates Maestrale/Soldati that the DOD looked at last week will provide the ready war material they needed badly if the deal could be pushed through.
Would you be happy if the Philippine Navy added 8 harpoons and a SeaRam CIWS to the GRP? Both could be cross decked to another ship at a later time.AFP's modernization to depend the Philippines claim to spratly's.........and to depend the territory of the philippines....should we remind the AFP that all our neighbors are using missiles. After the tour on the ship, i say what duh..is this the new depender we're talking about .....it can be easily sink by the.....tsino.Pnoy said if necessary depend our country....it cant even depend its own.....i'm really disappointed...the tour is free though...and right now its refuelling somewere in manila...the crew said they bought it just for palawan......which is good because they bought it using the share of palawan in malampaya..vietnam acquired new ships from Russia....i dont know if its new or old but the fact that it has guided missiles .........its good for me if philippine bought this one instead of that ship..
The intention in getting the Hamiltons is to better enable the PN to patrol and monitors its vast waters, not to engage in combat ops. Yes it would be nice to retrofit both with Harpoons, Phalanx, new ESM, sonar, etc, but where is the cash coming from? And what's the point when the bulk of the PN fleet is on average 50 years old and are armed only with guns? Cash has to be spent to address the problems that are currently faced, not what is likely to be faced in the next few years. Which should come first, given thats funds are very scarce, developing the basics and getting new patrol assets to meet existing threats or developing a combat capability?AAfter the tour on the ship, i say what duh..is this the new depender we're talking about .....it can be easily sink by the.....tsino.
When 2 helicopters are in the air, hunting a contact, how do they communicate with each other and coordinate their actions in response to the movements of the sub and new info coming in? Is it through radio?That's the reason many US Navy ships have large hangers for two helicopters, even with their tow arrays.
Can these cutters hulls take such modifications? I know they were built with potential war usage but all of that extra topweight might just be a problem, no?Long range 2D air Search., with just bearings and distances.
Good enough to Search and Manually track the embarked helicopter at longer ranges than the shorter range MK 92 CAS radars with automatic Tracking capabilities. Good enough to Search, Manually track, and Manually guide interceptors to a suspect drug traffic aircraft.
It's not good enough to be used to Track and Guide air to surface missiles with a Mk92 fire control system at anything. It's not good enough to Search and Track incoming missiles either.
I doubt the Philippine Navy will ever place SM1 or SM2 surface to air missiles aboard these ships, and if they did they would want a SPS-49 radar with MK 92 Mod 6 fire control system.
If Sea Sparrows missiles are placed aboard, which I believe is more likely, they would need to install MK91 fire control system and radars instead, or upgrade the MK 92 to Mod 12, again requiring a SPS-49 radar.
Any other Guided surface to air missiles would require different fire control systems and radars.
RAM, SeaRam, and Phalanx CIWS don't need a SPS-40 radar if they are the choice for air defense. Neither does Harpoon surface to surface missiles. In fact, the existing MK 92 Mod 1 fire control system is capable to launch them as is, all that's needed is the missiles and launchers.
So the SPS-40 provides very little additional war-fighting capability.
Probably not outside the SPS 40 array itself. But these cutters do have weight and space available for harpoons forward of the bridge and a Phalanx CIWS aft, and most likely a Searam CIWS upgrade in place of a Phalanx.Can these cutters hulls take such modifications? I know they were built with potential war usage but all of that extra topweight might just be a problem, no?
As for SM1, does the US still carry that weapon in it's inventory, along with associated launch system?
yes price should be considered too....but the maintenance of the old one is far bigger than the new one.. in the end it would cost the AFP more than the price of the new one.....isn't it?FROM Sea Toby
Everyone wants a newer, better ship. But price has to be considered too.
i know but , to patrol is to be ready for combat, pirate ships is also equip with modern weapon. would it be nice the AFP bought something that can depend the country's best interest.....they should remember that Chinese navy bully any weak navy ships on south china sea...remember the incidents on the oil exploration vessels they harass it because its powerless and they will do the same on Philippine navy.FROM STURM
The intention in getting the Hamiltons is to better enable the PN to patrol and monitors its vast waters, not to engage in combat ops.
i don't think it can have much of that modification ......there is not enough space on the ships..exept on the front and back...which i think very small for the equipment that you're suggestingFROM exported_kiwi
Can these cutters hulls take such modifications? I know they were built with potential war usage but all of that extra topweight might just be a problem, no?
As for SM1, does the US still carry that weapon in it's inventory, along with associated launch system?
Excellent points. But whether ones saves money buying new or upgrading old depends upon the details. Let's look at three recent ships that changed ownership recently...yes price should be considered too....but the maintenance of the old one is far bigger than the new one.. in the end it would cost the AFP more than the price of the new one.....isn't it?
and what is the comparison between the fully equip new ships than the old ships that need to be upgrade....if you think about it you've save more military fund if you bought the new one.
''Defend the ''country's best interest'' against what? Current threats or future threats that may not materialise? Even navies with budgets much larger than the PNs aren't expected to deal with all manner of threats. If the intention is to have newer ships to ''show the flag'' , protect offshore assets and deter foreign intrusions in disputed areas, surely new OPVs, fitted with nothing more than a 76mm gun, would do the job? Chinese ships that are intruding are doing so for political reasons, to make a statement, not with the intention to create hostilities.i know but , to patrol is to be ready for combat, pirate ships is also equip with modern weapon. would it be nice the AFP bought something that can depend the country's best interest.....they should remember that Chinese navy bully any weak navy ships on south china sea...remember the incidents on the oil exploration vessels they harass it because its powerless and they will do the same on Philippine navy.