Philippine Air Force Discussions and Updates

[Ananda]

highly unlikely that the US Gov't will allow these shenanigans. There is a broad consensus in the US that the sanctions against Turkey are necessary for US security.

This T129 basically still A129, which's in the end still Leonardo product. It can be as you said that US will not give clearance for Leonardo to stepping in. However it's still can be otherwise, if Leonardo convince US that they're now that taking over the project, and TAI act as their subcontractor.

There's enough in US that want to punish Turkey, however there's also those that want to engage Turkey. Let's see what happens.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

The refurbished, ex-US Air Force aircraft (with tail number 5125), which is one of two platforms of the type being acquired by the PAF under the US Excess Defense Articles Program, arrived on 29 January.

Hopefully these two C-130H will receive proper maintenance and many years of usefull operation.
The second C-130H is expected to be delivered later in 2021.

edit to fix link:

http://www.janes.com/amp/philippine...om-us/ZnlJK3dHVU9mZ28xajRJVkc5dVI5VFp1cVMwPQ2

 

[pkcasimir]

This T129 basically still A129, which's in the end still Leonardo product. It can be as you said that US will not give clearance for Leonardo to stepping in. However it's still can be otherwise, if Leonardo convince US that they're now that taking over the project, and TAI act as their subcontractor.

There's enough in US that want to punish Turkey, however there's also those that want to engage Turkey. Let's see what happens.

There is no significant support for "engaging "Turkey in the Biden administration. In fact, the Biden administration is far more anti-Turkey than the Trump administration ever was. It seems you are engaging in wishful thinking and are not aware of US sentiment on this issue.
There is absolutely no way the US is going to allow the fiction of Leonardo "taking over the project."

 

[Ananda]

It seems you are engaging in wishful thinking and are not aware of US sentiment on this issue.
There is absolutely no way the US is going to allow the fiction of Leonardo "taking over the project."

And that's your opinion. This project is going to take over by Leonardo. It's up to Leonardo lobby with US to make it possible or becoming wishful thinking.

I'm aware of that more Democrats that hostile to Turkey with Armenian lobby that flock to them. However again this's Leonardo that seems going to taking over the project. So again it's up to Leonardo lobby with US. Do you have sources that saying Leonardo will definitely failed on this deal with US ??

Seems your personal beef with Turkey clouded your opinion on simple business transaction. For Leonardo whether it's T129 or A129, they're still involved in the project. The matter now is will US still allowed their engine to this attack helicopter for Philippines or not if Leonardo that taking over...That Philippines sources only talking potential trend for Leonardo taking over the project from TAI. That what you should comments, not your opinion on Turkey.

 

[Pusser Tas]

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/philippines-receives-additional-c-130h-trans.port-aircraft-from-us

This link did not open,

 

[OPSSG]

This link did not open,

Try this link on news that that the PAF received the first of two refurbished C-130H transport aircraft from the US on 29 Jan 2021, instead:

http://www.janes.com/amp/philippine...om-us/ZnlJK3dHVU9mZ28xajRJVkc5dVI5VFp1cVMwPQ2

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

First batch of Polish Black Hawk helos arrive in the Philippines

The Philippines has taken delivery of the first of 16 Polish-built S-70i Black Hawk transport helicopter it has on order, with another due to arrive in the next month.

www.defensenews.com

Well, well.. they actually really procured S-70i and not stuck in the procedural 'mud' as what happen to several other projects.

Well....our big friend Duterte approves for 15 more S-70i, on top of the 16 already ordered.

Duterte approves procurement of 15 more Black Hawk helicopters for Philippine Air Force

Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte has approved the acquisition of 15 more Sikorsky Black Hawk multirole helicopters for the Philippine Air Force (PAF), Cabinet...

www.janes.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

A nice display of a number of its recently acquired aerial assets of the Philippine Airforce.
The Hercules should be the refurbished ex-US Air Force aircraft (with tail number 5125), which was received on 29 January.

Philippine Air Force displays recently acquired aerial assets

The Philippine Air Force (PAF) displayed a number of its recently acquired aerial assets during a visit by President Rodrigo Duterte to Clark Air Base, northwest of...

www.janes.com

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

And that's your opinion. This project is going to take over by Leonardo. It's up to Leonardo lobby with US to make it possible or becoming wishful thinking.

I'm aware of that more Democrats that hostile to Turkey with Armenian lobby that flock to them. However again this's Leonardo that seems going to taking over the project. So again it's up to Leonardo lobby with US. Do you have sources that saying Leonardo will definitely failed on this deal with US ??

Seems your personal beef with Turkey clouded your opinion on simple business transaction. For Leonardo whether it's T129 or A129, they're still involved in the project. The matter now is will US still allowed their engine to this attack helicopter for Philippines or not if Leonardo that taking over...That Philippines sources only talking potential trend for Leonardo taking over the project from TAI. That what you should comments, not your opinion on Turkey.

Because this article is about the T129, i post it here.

Turkey admits US blocking of its attack helicopter sale to Pakistan

The United States has blocked Turkey’s sale of T129 combat helicopters to Pakistan, which will likely lead to the latter purchasing them from China, Turkish presidential...

www.janes.com

As we can see here the US refuses to supply the engines.
It is unclear if this lack of cooperation is caused by the fear that china can get easy acces to the advanced angines if the T129 is delivered to Pakistan or the cold relationship between Turkey and the US....or both.

 

[ngatimozart]

Because this article is about the T129, i post it here.

Turkey admits US blocking of its attack helicopter sale to Pakistan

The United States has blocked Turkey’s sale of T129 combat helicopters to Pakistan, which will likely lead to the latter purchasing them from China, Turkish presidential...

www.janes.com

As we can see here the US refuses to supply the engines.
It is unclear if this lack of cooperation is caused by the fear that china can get easy acces to the advanced angines if the T129 is delivered to Pakistan or the cold relationship between Turkey and the US....or both.

That will be under the ITAR legislation which states that the US must approve the export by a foreign entity, regardless of country of origin, of any military platform that has US equipment in it. There will be security concerns in the decision, but also as you say the US grumpiness at Turkey.

 

[OPSSG]

Learning of the utility of UAVs from the 2017 Battle of Marawi (see the lessons learnt), the Pinoys quickly acquired the same to retain this imagery analysis capability.

In Jan 2020, Jane’s has reported that the PAF has begun operating the Elbit Systems Hermes 900 UAV. Images of two of the nine Hermes 900 platforms ordered from Israel have been circulating on social media since November 2019, with a video emerging a few days later showing one of the platforms in flight bearing PAF markings.

The procurement of the MALE UAVs is part of the PAF’s ongoing modernisation programme, which also includes the acquisition of three Hermes 450 long-endurance tactical UAVs (that Singapore also operates).

But we have to ask ourselves, what is the payload of the PAF’s Hermes 900? I suspect that additional sensors will be a future Elbit sale opportunity that may not be taken up, given present Pinoy budget realities.

Q: Can the PAF afford to install the AMPS NG Multi-Sensor Payload System?

Given the growing capabilities of MALE UAVs possessed by Singapore and Indonesia, a MALE UAV for maritime surveillance, with a SAR /GMTI radar capability, is on the priority list for the RSAF. The likely selection of the Hermes 900 (which has a modular internal mission bay and can drop sonobuoys) by Singapore shows how much this capability space has grown to augment classic MPA patrols.

What sensor is going to be installed in the payload bay of Singapore’s US$300 million order of 12 UAVs? Given the growing capabilities of MALE UAVs possessed by Singapore and Indonesia, a MALE UAV for maritime surveillance, with an SAR radar capability, is on the priority list for the RSAF. The likely selection of the Hermes 900 (which has a modular internal mission bay and can drop sonobuoys) by Singapore shows how much this capability space has grown to augment classic MPA patrols.

 

[Ananda]

Philippine Air Force eyes total of 24 Super Tucanos

The Philippine Air Force (PAF) is eyeing to acquire a total of 24 A-29B Super Tucanos. PAF is currently operating 6 Super Tucanos which were commissioned to se

www.mintfo.com

When I look this article, the question that come to me is what is PAF threat scenario ? Super Tucano is a good COIN and also can be used (eventough it's not the purpose) as Advance Trainer. However it's shown that with limited budget, PAF still look into Internal Security matters.

PAF has long ambition to get back toward Fast Jet and even MRCA capabilities. If they got huge budget, then quadrupling their COIN capabilities will be alright. It's not secret that Philippines still has to face significant domestic insurgency threat. However with their own budget condition, is it prudence way to go this way ?

FA-50 is already right way for PAF to regain capabilities on fast Jets operation. It's good preparation for MRCA (whatever type they are going to choose). Their budget shout be better off being used for more FA-50. Off course they will not get same amount of FA-50 as their plan of 18 more Super Tucano. Still adding another 12 FA-50 will be in ball park range. More importantly FA-50 relative capabilities can be used both as Internal Insurgency threat (altough not as effective Super Tucano) and CAP in SCS.

Is it Duterte administration stance that whatever Chinese do in SCS even to Philippines claimed islands, is not immediate concern ?
Hope they can give PAF more budget for fast Jets operation, not just using most of that on COIN roles.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Philippine Air Force eyes total of 24 Super Tucanos

The Philippine Air Force (PAF) is eyeing to acquire a total of 24 A-29B Super Tucanos. PAF is currently operating 6 Super Tucanos which were commissioned to se

www.mintfo.com

When I look this article, the question that come to me is what is PAF threat scenario ? Super Tucano is a good COIN and also can be used (eventough it's not the purpose) as Advance Trainer. However it's shown that with limited budget, PAF still look into Internal Security matters.

PAF has long ambition to get back toward Fast Jet and even MRCA capabilities. If they got huge budget, then quadrupling their COIN capabilities will be alright. It's not secret that Philippines still has to face significant domestic insurgency threat. However with their own budget condition, is it prudence way to go this way ?

FA-50 is already right way for PAF to regain capabilities on fast Jets operation. It's good preparation for MRCA (whatever type they are going to choose). Their budget shout be better off being used for more FA-50. Off course they will not get same amount of FA-50 as their plan of 18 more Super Tucano. Still adding another 12 FA-50 will be in ball park range. More importantly FA-50 relative capabilities can be used both as Internal Insurgency threat (altough not as effective Super Tucano) and CAP in SCS.

Is it Duterte administration stance that whatever Chinese do in SCS even to Philippines claimed islands, is not immediate concern ?
Hope they can give PAF more budget for fast Jets operation, not just using most of that on COIN roles.

|"The Philippine Air Force (PAF) is eyeing to acquire a total of 24 A-29B Super Tucanos."|

It sounds more like a plan or wish, as far as i know only 6 are really ordered and delivered.

Last year they were still talking about just 6 more (for a total of 12).

Lorenzana eyes acquisition of 6 more attack planes

MANILA – Department of National Defense (DND) Secretary Delfin Lorenzana is open to acquiring six more Embraer Defense and Security A-29B "Super Tucano" close-air support aircraft to boost the six that are now in the Philippine Air Force's (PAF) inventory."I was discussing with the...

www.pna.gov.ph

|"With these capabilities, the PAF will use the new aircraft for Close Air Support (CAS), Light Attack, as well as Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) missions,” PAF said.|

There is a chance that the PAF wants to use the EMB-314/A-29B as some sort of CAS and low-cost maritime patrol aircraft over Phiilippines' EEZ.

But as you said it is maybe better to not spend all of their defence budget on A-29s but also to spend on more FA-50s.

TNI-AU has 15 EMB-314s in its fleet, but for some reason they never use it against OPM-terrorists, i hope the PAF will use the EMB-314 properly and not just for air shows.

 

[STURM]

But as you said it is maybe better to not spend all of their defence budget on A-29s but also to spend on more FA-50s.

I can understand why the PAF would have a need for a single engine prop platform. There is still a non state actor threat in the form of the ASG, BIFF, NPA and IS elements.

On paper armed Tucanos would complement existing assets when it comes to fire suppprt and armed recce and would -depending on the operational circumstances - would do away with the need to call in the F-50s and S-211s.

Cash resources are tight. Whilst the armed services would like to focus more on the ability to deal with external treats/challenges; the country still faces a major non state threat.

Presidential elections are the following year. If a new President is elected it will be interesting to see if a new defence approach is adopted.

 

[STURM]

It's good preparation for MRCA (whatever type they are going to choose). Their budget shout be better off being used for more FA-50.

Personally I feel the focus should be acquiring decent numbers of MPAs and UASs; to enable the AFP to better monitor its maritime domain.

There’s a long list of things which are needed but deciding which areas to actually focus on is the issue. What I don’t personally agree with is the plan to get Brahmos because it consumes resources which can be used for other more urgent areas and the AFP doesn’t have the needed ISR assets to go along with Brahmos.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Personally I feel the focus should be acquiring decent numbers of MPAs and UASs; to enable the AFP to better monitor its maritime domain.

There’s a long list of things which are needed but deciding which areas to actually focus on is the issue. What I don’t personally agree with is the plan to get Brahmos because it consumes resources which can be used for other more urgent areas and the AFP doesn’t have the needed ISR assets to go along with Brahmos.

|"The Philippines and India have signed an agreement for a potential supply of BrahMos cruise missiles ..... "|

Philippines signs agreement with India for world's fastest supersonic missiles

The system would boost military firepower in the face of threats to its maritime territory in the South China Sea. Read more at straitstimes.com.

www.straitstimes.com

"POTENTIAL"......
Similar to the impressive wishlist of their southern neighbours, its just a plan...

 

[Ananda]

There is a chance that the PAF wants to use the EMB-314/A-29B as some sort of CAS and low-cost maritime patrol aircraft over Phiilippines' EEZ.

Personally I feel the focus should be acquiring decent numbers of MPAs and UASs; to enable the AFP to better monitor its maritime domain.

I would agree with both arguments, however my thinking more on the situation of PAF it self. We all know their budget is tight. Super Tucano will make excellent COIN, and Brazilian AF used them also to monitor border area in Amazon for potential illegal cross border trade.

They have spend on Israeli Male UAV, thus it can provide more round the clock observation on potential insurgences. In such my thinking more for them to increase their LCA/LIFT capabilities in FA-50 after their UAV feeding them Surveillance data. They also still have those 6 existing Super Tucano that already can conduct effective Surveillance and Insurgency Interdiction.

If the article right on PAF officially put plan of 12 Super Tucano by 2022, and another 6 by 2024, then it's shown their tendencies for more COIN capabilities. Which raise my earlier question, are they only think more on Internal Challenge from local Insurgency ? Are Duterte just give up on Chinese increachment in the their LCS inlets, and decided local Insurgency more important ?

As Brahmos, yeah.. what's the point to have long range supersonic Missiles if you can't support it with enough ISR assets to explore the full potential of the Missiles. Remind me of TNI-AL experiment with the Russian Missiles (that Brahmos based on). Nothing more then bragging exercise.

 

[tonnyc]

@Sandhi Yudha Originally (2013) the Philippine Air Force planned on 24 CAS aircraft delivered in stages all the way to 2028 to replace their OV-10 and SF260TP. Note that while the SF260TP is an armed trainer, the CAS requirement wasn't intended to replace it in its role as a trainer, but rather in its role as CAS. They got six A-29B, so there's a need for 18 more.

In addition, their S-211 aircrafts are badly overdue for replacement. They are the sole remaining non-private user of the S-211 and parts are rare. The aircrafts themselves are from late '80s to early '90s, so they're around 30 years old. This might not be an issue if spare parts are plentiful, but they aren't. As such, they've steadily cannibalized their fleet. No idea how many remains flight-worthy, but I'm guessing around 4. The S-211 is a basic jet trainer, but the A-29B is capable of taking over its role as a trainer. They'll need 6 aircraft soon, but possibly up to twelve for that role.

So between the need for more CAS aircraft and replacement for the S-211, planning for buying 24 additional A-29B is not far-fetched. Of course, it's not certain that they'll end up getting all 24. The S-211 replacement might go to another type (L-39NG and M-345 are the other obvious contenders), and the plan for CAS says 24 aircraft by 2028, so they may end up buying less for 2021/2022.

@STURM Just an aside, Philippine constitution mandates single term presidencies. So if President Duterte gets reelected something is funky. He is trying to get the constitution changed though. Most likely President Duterte will maneuver to try and place another Duterte as his successor. Either way, chances are in 2022 another president will be elected. The question is whether he/she will have a new policy or just continue with the current path.

The MPA and UAS situation is tricky. You are correct, but there's a perception that the president does not want that capability. The Long Range Patrol Aircraft (which will be the MPAs) acquisition remains stalled. The funding is in limbo and there is no desire in the government on actually pushing the project through. Alternatives such as acquiring smaller aircrafts and equipping them with less capable but cheaper sensors are also uncertain. It might push through, but there doesn't seem to be a serious attempt to do so. The TC-90 that the Philippine Navy acquired were a donation. The Philippine Air Force is looking to acquire at least 8 TC-12 Huron, but that just started in late 2020 and only because the USAF is retiring those.

The Brahmos is going to be acquired by the Philippine Navy as part of their coastal defense project. It's already being cut down to a single battery instead of the original plan for three. I don't think it's possible to realign the funding. The government doesn't want the ISR capability. They'd rather not know. If the Brahmos isn't acquired the funding will just go for base renovation or buying vaccines for the AFP.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

I would agree with both arguments, however my thinking more on the situation of PAF it self. We all know their budget is tight. Super Tucano will make excellent COIN, and Brazilian AF used them also to monitor border area in Amazon for potential illegal cross border trade.

They have spend on Israeli Male UAV, thus it can provide more round the clock observation on potential insurgences. In such my thinking more for them to increase their LCA/LIFT capabilities in FA-50 after their UAV feeding them Surveillance data. They also still have those 6 existing Super Tucano that already can conduct effective Surveillance and Insurgency Interdiction.

If the article right on PAF officially put plan of 12 Super Tucano by 2022, and another 6 by 2024, then it's shown their tendencies for more COIN capabilities. Which raise my earlier question, are they only think more on Internal Challenge from local Insurgency ? Are Duterte just give up on Chinese increachment in the their LCS inlets, and decided local Insurgency more important ?

As Brahmos, yeah.. what's the point to have long range supersonic Missiles if you can't support it with enough ISR assets to explore the full potential of the Missiles. Remind me of TNI-AL experiment with the Russian Missiles (that Brahmos based on). Nothing more then bragging exercise.

It is possible that Duterte and his government are still traumatized by the Labanan sa Marawi/Battle of Marawi.
Less than 1000 terrorists could invade and take control of a city in a couple of days, without much resistance. But the Philippine Armed Forces needed 5 months to recapture the city.
This shows the weakness of the PAF. They are in the possession of 8 Agusta A-109E and 2 AH-1. But the amounts are small and i dont now if the AH-1 Cobras are serviceable.

But it is also possible that with not buying MPAs and light jetfighters, Duterte tries to please his chinese masters.

 

[STURM]

But the Philippine Armed Forces needed 5 months to recapture the city.
This shows the weakness of the PAF.

The PA (neither has any regional army - with the exception of the Vietnamese decades ago - had never been in a protected urban engagement prior to that - no experience or doctrine to fall back on. For decades - from the time of the Huks to the insurgency fought against the MNLF - the bulk of the fighting it was involved in was in a rural jungle environment. The closest it had come to a protracted urban engagement was the Zamboanga siege some years ago.

It also took the Iraqis (with U.S. advisors and air support) and the Syrians months to respectively retake Mosul and Aleppo.

But it is also possible that with not buying MPAs and light jetfighters, Duterte tries to please his chinese masters

I doubt it.

It’s a probably a combination of various factors; namely limited funds; deciding what to focus on, etc. If indeed he was so eager to please the Chinese; the AFP wouldn’t be looking at Scorpene and Brahmos.