Pakistan Navy (PN) News, Updates & Discussions

[mysterious]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

‘Britain to sell Type-23 ships to Pakistan’

LONDON: Chief of the Naval Staff Shahid Karimullah said on Monday that Britain had offered to sell three Type-23 ships to Pakistan.

Britain showed its interest in selling the ships and “we have also shown interest†in purchasing them, said Admiral Karimullah after talking with his British counterpart Admiral First Sea Lord Sir Alan West. Pakistan’s High Commissioner to Britain Dr Maleeha Lodhi also attended the talks.

“Now we are going to discuss the funding and price and after that is completed then a final decision could be taken,†said Karimullah. Replying to a question, he said the focus of his discussion with West was basically on “the training aspect because the Pakistan Navy is mostly trained by the Royal Navy.†APP

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_17-5-2005_pg7_47

As I've mentioned on several occasions, I'm not a well informed person as far as the navy goes; so it would be better if I let someone more in to naval platforms carry this on.

Just to get that person started I'd be curious to know how good and effective these Type-23 vessels would be given the PN's maritime role in the region as well as, will this be a wise decision (keeping in line with PN's strategies and operational requirements) to acquire these vessels?

PS: Interesting last sentence! "Pakistan Navy is mostly trained by the Royal Navy". I am totally unaware of that. Anyone willing to give me some insight on this? Whats the depth of this training relationship and what benefits the PN is gaining by training with the RN as opposed to training with, let's say, the USN or any other battle-hardened and experienced navy? :coffee

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

Just to get that person started I'd be curious to know how good and effective these Type-23 vessels would be given the PN's maritime role in the region as well as, will this be a wise decision (keeping in line with PN's strategies and operational requirements) to acquire these vessels?

They're excellent vessels. The Romanians have just bought some as well. Very capable platforms

PS: Interesting last sentence! "Pakistan Navy is mostly trained by the Royal Navy". I am totally unaware of that. Anyone willing to give me some insight on this? Whats the depth of this training relationship and what benefits the PN is gaining by training with the RN as opposed to training with, let's say, the USN or any other battle-hardened and experienced navy? :coffee

At a recent conflict level one could argue that the UK has more recent "concentrated" combat experience. (Falklands) But, I think the statement refers to legacy heritage where the UK system of training and formation was adopted pre-1947. Pakistan still embraces UK trg and structure. I'd argue that culturally the Navies of both Pakistan and India are closer to a UK model. Although India has had dominant traces of Soviet philosophy in surface warship construction.

 

[highsea]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

I agree with gf. The Type 23 is a thoroughly modern frigate, similar in size to the USN OHP Class. These are a little larger than the PN's Tariq Class (ex. Amazon), and are fitted with torpedoes (4 tubes), towed Sonar arrays, Harpoons, Seawolf VLS SAM's, a 4.5" gun and two 30mm guns. They are considered very stealthy, with low RCS, thermal, and acoustic signatures. They have CODLAG (combined diesel, electric, and gas) power, and can run off electric motors when hunting subs, and can carry a Lynx or Merlin helicopter.

There were plans for the Type 23 to enter service with the PN before the sanctions, but they had to be shelved. The first Type 23 was to be built in Britain, and the second in Karachi. These ships would be good acquisitions for the PN, they are excellent platforms for maritime and port protection, and sub hunting.

The Royal Navy has a lot of experience- they are every bit as "battle hardened" as the USN. The Type 23 has been deployed to the Gulf in support of OIF, in Kosovo in support of the French Aircraft Carrier "Foch", in Sierra Leone, and I don't know where else.

Pakistan already operates the Type 21 (Tariq) Class, and so she has experience training with the British on similar platforms. I would think Pakistan would like very much to get these vessels and re-establish ties with GB's shipbuilding industry.

 

[adsH]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

At a recent conflict level one could argue that the UK has more recent "concentrated" combat experience. (Falklands) But, I think the statement refers to legacy heritage where the UK system of training and formation was adopted pre-1947. Pakistan still embraces UK trg and structure. I'd argue that culturally the Navies of both Pakistan and India are closer to a UK model. Although India has had dominant traces of Soviet philosophy in surface warship construction.

i totally agree with that.

But Pakistan's newly acquired interest in our ship industry will be short lived, our surface fleet construction is shutting down, and we'll be using Italian and and french facilities.

we've had 16 of the Type 23 in service any idea which ones were removed from service.

List

Type 23 Duke Class Frigates
Ship Name Pennant No. Ship Name Pennant No.
Norfolk F230 Northumberland F238
Argyll F231 Richmond F239
Marlborough F233 Somerset F82
Lancaster F229 Grafton F80
Iron Duke F234 Sutherland F81
Monmouth F235 Kent F78
Montrose F236 Portland F79
Westminster F237 St Albans F83


Type 23 Statistics
Displacement: 4,900 tonnes
Length: 133m / 436ft
Beam: 16.1m / 52.9ft
Complement: 185
Armament: 2 x Quad Harpoon Missile launchers (8X Harpoons)
Vertical Launch Sea Wolf anti-missile system
4.5in (114mm) MK 8 gun
2 x 30mm Close range guns
2 x Magazine launched anti submarine torpedo tubes
NATO Seagnat and DLF3 Decoy Launchers
Sensors: Type 1007 navigation radar
Type 996 air/surface surveillance radar
2 x Type 911 Sea Wolf tracking radars
UAT Electronic Surveillance System
Type 2050 active sonar
Aircraft:
MK 8 Lynx helicopters:
Armament:
Sea Skua anti-ship missiles
Stingray anti-submarine torpedoes
Mk 11 depth charges
Machine guns
Propulsion:
Turbines:
CODLAG (Combined Diesel and Gas) - 2 x
Rolls Royce Spey gas boost
Diesels:
4 x GEC-Alsthom Paxman Valenta
Electric:
2 x GEC motors

 

[P.A.F]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

this picture just speaks for it self
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/images/Type23-IronDuke-988197166f.jpg

 

[adsH]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

do all of the Frigates have the newer Lynx Heli's or do some still have merlins, and curious would these frigates be sold with the heli in that case which heli would be bundled. heli is an important part of the whole type 23 package.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

the royal navy uses the Lynx heli's. if PN where to get these frigates then we would probably get the Lynx too. have a look at this site for more info
http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/448.html

 

[P.A.F]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2005-daily/18-05-2005/main/update.shtml#34

Pakistan and Britain reach arms deal: Defense ministry
(Updated at 1800 PST)
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and Britain on Wednesday signed an arms deal to allow Islamabad to purchase British military hardware, a defence ministry statement said here.

Britain's visiting Under Secretary of State for Defence, Kevin Tebbitt, signed the document with his Pakistani counterpart, Lieutenant General Ali Muhammad Jan, the statement said.

"The Memorandum of Understanding would help open new avenues in defence cooperation between Pakistan and the UK. It would facilitate procurement of defence equipments and transfer of technology," it said.

The two sides also agreed to hold "joint exercises, exchange observers and to jointly fight the war on terror."

_____________________________________________________________

ToT . :dbanana

 

[adsH]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/may2005-daily/18-05-2005/main/update.shtml#34

Pakistan and Britain reach arms deal: Defense ministry
(Updated at 1800 PST)
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan and Britain on Wednesday signed an arms deal to allow Islamabad to purchase British military hardware, a defence ministry statement said here.

Britain's visiting Under Secretary of State for Defence, Kevin Tebbitt, signed the document with his Pakistani counterpart, Lieutenant General Ali Muhammad Jan, the statement said.

"The Memorandum of Understanding would help open new avenues in defence cooperation between Pakistan and the UK. It would facilitate procurement of defence equipments and transfer of technology," it said.


_____________________________________________________________

ToT . :dbanana

i think the whole deal is localized to the Type 23, I'm sure PN still feels it's an offshoot of the real thing the Royal navy. PN was interested in the Ship a decade ago, since our own surface ship productions shutting down selling obsolete designs doesn't really make that much of a difference.

 

[highsea]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

I don't think it's an obsolete design, the last one was launched what, 3 years ago? It's one of the most modern frigates in the world. Better air defences than the OHP class, good ASUW and ASW capabilities with the Harpoons, torps, good guns, countermeasures, sensors, and propulsion systems. It's a true multi-role vessel. It's a proven platform that still has room for growth, it would be an excellent vessel for the PN.

Has the UK had any problems with them that weren't caused by lack of funding?

 

[A Khan]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

Agree with Highsea...

Given what PN and IN operate at the moment, these vessels will be a very valuable addition and a good platform for the future. Compared to PNs type 21 frigates, which are much older, these offer a lot more and there is room for upgrades if needed. British ships, are in my opinion among the best in the world, and this is a ship that is battle-tested and: .... the type 23 frigate is the mainstay of the modern surface fleet. The 16 Type 23 frigates form 50% of the total frigate/destroyer force in the Royal Navy (quote from http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/448.html )

 

[adsH]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

Has the UK had any problems with them that weren't caused by lack of funding?

Largely to do with funding, i don't think we're going to to build anymore of these, we have the Type 45 and the new CVF's and the newer Sub fleet that we chose over these. its a hard choice. My Local CLOF wasn't very pleased about the downsizing. he was referring to the stress it puts on the current crews who will have longer rotation, less family time and more stress since we'll be numerically be inferior then what we are today. and the current commitments won't go away. but capability wise we still would be classed second to the US.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

Largely to do with funding, i don't think we're going to to build anymore of these, we have the Type 45 and the new CVF's and the newer Sub fleet that we chose over these. its a hard choice. My Local CLOF wasn't very pleased about the downsizing. he was referring to the stress it puts on the current crews who will have longer rotation, less family time and more stress since we'll be numerically be inferior then what we are today. and the current commitments won't go away. but capability wise we still would be classed second to the US.

Indeed we won't be building any more of the current frigates designs. I wish we hadn't just scrapped so many of those frigates. The Type-42s could go, as their replacements are at least under construction. But we don't have any new surface-combatants on the horizon now that the FSC's been scrapped.

However in the long-run the scrapping of the FSC might help. A tri-hull may still not have been viable at this point. Now it will be a lot easier for the MoD to adopt a modified/extended Type-45 design, as they won't be tempted to go for something unusual. However obviously it would have been nice if they had just used a mod-T45 for FSC.

I agree with you on the stress it puts on current crews, as they have to do more and more work. Perhaps a future government will look to bring in more frigates (& destroyers for that matter) at some point. The Conservatives have become "pro-defence" again and they've finally accepted that spending is important I think - of course whether they'd provide more funds or not is difficult to say.

 

[Awang se]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

U need to burn a politicions hand to make him look the other way around. They're pretty tight when it comes to defence matter. they rather invest on something that give quick profits or in something that will enhance their image in the coming elections.

 

[adsH]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

don't get me started my dad is a conservative. I'm more of a labour Person. The Conservatives have lost almost all of there strong holds here in the Midlands. and our Voter turn out in the north was close to 58 percent. that is really good for a modern democracy. lol.

 

[Red aRRow]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

Ok now lets not turn it into a political debate.

 

[P.A.F]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

don't get me started my dad is a conservative. I'm more of a labour Person. The Conservatives have lost almost all of there strong holds here in the Midlands. and our Voter turn out in the north was close to 58 percent. that is really good for a modern democracy. lol.

i'm a labour supporter as well. then lib dem and then the green party
i would never vote conservative.
anyway here are some specs of the ship.



[font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Type 23 Statistics[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Displacement:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]4,900 tonnes[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Length:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]133m / 436ft[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Beam:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]16.1m / 52.9ft[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Complement:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]185[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Armament:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]2 x Quad Harpoon Missile launchers
Vertical Launch Sea Wolf anti-missile system
4.5in (114mm) MK 8 gun
2 x 30mm Close range guns
2 x Magazine launched anti submarine torpedo tubes
NATO Seagnat and DLF3 Decoy Launchers[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Sensors:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Type 1007 navigation radar
Type 996 air/surface surveillance radar
2 x Type 911 Sea Wolf tracking radars
UAT Electronic Surveillance System
Type 2050 active sonar[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Aircraft:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]MK 8 Lynx helicopters: Armament:
Sea Skua anti-ship missiles
Stingray anti-submarine torpedoes
Mk 11 depth charges
Machine guns
[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Propulsion:[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica, *]Turbines:

CODLAG (Combined Diesel and Gas) - 2 x

Rolls Royce Spey gas boost

Diesels:
4 x GEC-Alsthom Paxman Valenta
Electric:
2 x GEC motors
[/font]

 

[P.A.F]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

http://www.janes.com/business/news/jni/jni050603_1_n.shtml

Three-way race for UK Type 23 frigates

By Richard Scott

Belgium, Chile and Pakistan are vying to acquire three UK Royal Navy (RN) Type 23 frigates being offered for sale overseas as a result of force reductions announced in 2004. All three nations are pursuing negotiations with the UK Ministry of Defence's Disposals Services Agency (DSA), now part of the Defence Logistics Organisation, with a final decision on the ships' sale expected within the next few months.

Chile has long been viewed as the most likely buyer for the Type 23s, having expressed a strong interest in acquiring all three ships being paid off by the RN and being first to the negotiating table. However, while the Chilean Navy has remained keen to pursue an acquisition, government delays in approving funding have seen Belgium and Pakistan enter the fray.

Informed sources have told JNI that the three putative deals all have competing merits according to their immediate sale value, the long-term value to UK industry and the 'defence diplomacy' benefit to the UK government. As a result, it is anticipated that a final decision on the sale will be taken at ministerial level.

____________________________________________________________________

Pakistan better start talking fast.

 

[ajay_ijn]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

I heard that Pakistan is taking loan from somebody to buy those F-22P Frigates.
Is that true

 

[P.A.F]

Re: New aircraft and frigates will strengthen defence

as far as i know NO. i've heard that china are giving a soft loan but i am not to sure about that.