Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

adsH

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

On the web: http://www.dsca.mil Media/Public Contact: (703) 601-3670 Date: 6 May 2005 Transmittal No. 05-19 Pakistan – AIM-9M-1/2 SIDEWINDER Missiles On 6 May 2005, the Defense Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress of a possible Foreign Military Sale to Pakistan of 300 AIM-9M-1/2 SIDEWINDER air-to-air missiles as well as associated equipment and services. The total value, if all options are exercised, could be as high as $46 million. The Government of Pakistan has requested a possible sale of 300 AIM-9M-1/2 SIDEWINDER air-to-air missiles, missile containers, test sets and support equipment, spare and repair parts, publications and technical documentation, personnel training and training equipment, U.S. Government and contractor engineering and logistics support services, and other related elements of logistics support. The estimated cost is $46 million. This proposed sale will contribute to the foreign policy and national security of the United States by helping to improve the security of a friendly country that continues to be a key ally in the global war on terrorism. This system will provide the Pakistani Air Force the ability to fly with armed surveillance aircraft during missions along its western border. The Pakistani Air Force currently lacks this self-defense capability. These missiles are needed to allow Pakistan to defend its borders, participate in coalition operations and exercises and operate a modern Air Force. Pakistan will replace its existing AIM-9L missiles and maintain its current air-to-air intercept capability. Pakistan, which already has AIM-9 missiles in its inventory, will have no difficulty absorbing these additional missiles. The proposed sale of this equipment and support will not affect the basic military balance in the region. The prime contractor will be Raytheon Systems Corporation in Tucson, Arizona. There are no known offset agreements proposed in connection with this potential sale. Implementation of this proposed sale will require temporary assignment for two-week intervals twice annually to participate in training, program management and technical review. There will be no adverse impact on U.S. defense readiness as a result of this proposed sale. This notice of a potential sale is required by law; it does not mean that the sale has been concluded. http://www.dsca.osd.mil/PressReleases/36-b/36b_index.htm
AussieD i told you they were going for the AIM-9M
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

So they are ADSH. Maybe they've been told un-officially "not to bother" asking for AIM-9X? If so, you have to wonder whether AMRAAM will be released...
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

They have been told not to ask any thing AD. Many officials have been throughn off the evaluation board just because of their open mouth. I herd that Chairman of the committy for AirCraft selection & F-16 discussions got pissed off on the leak of news that PAF is looking in to Mirage2000. They have chosen the secret way of discussions now.

Lockheed-Martin & US defence team came, they held talks, discussions, contract agreements & signing & no one even herd about it. Every thing has gone behind closed doors. Pre-Evaluation team has been dismentled just to make sure that have no idea of what AC or Weapon systems have been chosen from the list they made.

Other day I tried to get info on 55 F-16 purchase n most said they dont know abt it, others said there is no such news & only two said when it happens you will know.
 

mysterious

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Up to Rs 15b raise in defence spending?

ISLAMABAD: An extra Rs 12 to 15 billion will be allocated to defence in the next budget and the sum needed to buy F-16 aircraft will also be included in the upcoming budget, Online quoted sources as saying on Wednesday. Defence spending was Rs 193. 79 billion in the 2004-05 budget, which would be increased to Rs 208 billion, sources said.

They said a separate sum would be reserved to buy F-16 fighter jets from the United States. The US government has already announced that it would sell these aircraft to Pakistan.

Military sources said that Pakistan would also buy modern supersonic aircraft from the US and its details were being worked out. Sources said these purchases aimed to meet the armed forces’ defence requirements and maintain the balance of power in the region. Sources said the government had assured the military that funds would be released on priority. Online

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_26-5-2005_pg1_3

People! What is this? Read the highlighted part carefully! Could this be that all the predictions that we, at DT, have been making were in vain? Supersonic aircraft (other than the F-16 purchase) from the US? So much for Rafale and other options I guess! Gary, which one do you think is being referred to over here? :coffee
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I think it is still refering to F-16s. Some times news ppl write it in a way that you loose track & think that some thing new is coming along, while what they mean is what they were saying previously.

OtherWise F-18 has been on the table for some time. But I wont be shocked if its latest of F-15s that could help counter Sukhois not on the bases of AMRAAM but on the basis of range. My hands r up for F-18s.

I dont think its JSF-35 & offcourse definitly not F-22.

BTW that news of keeping separate additional funds for F-16 is old news. It came out with Free 2nd hand F-16 news thing. I just missed out on it.
 

BilalK

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I heard this time around, the PAF has a strong back up plan if anything were to go wrong with the F-16 deal, that another fighter (Mirage 2000-5?) is on the paper ready to be inked if another U.S embargo strikes, how credible is this?
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Morage2000-5 r ready to be signed regardless of F-16 purchase or ban. It can become 2nd Front line AC after F-16 but reading the above post by PAF , I think we will have to wait a bit & see.
 

rafale_2k5

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

BilalK said:
I heard this time around, the PAF has a strong back up plan if anything were to go wrong with the F-16 deal, that another fighter (Mirage 2000-5?) is on the paper ready to be inked if another U.S embargo strikes, how credible is this?
M2K5/9 is not a back up option with/ without F-16s theyre coming , theres another piece of news

Pakistan seeks as many as 75 new F-16 warplanes

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Pakistan has sought prices for buying as many as 75 new F-16 C/D Falcon fighter aircraft since the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, the head of the Pentagon agency handling the matter said Wednesday.

Pakistan also has asked about buying 11 used F-16s, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which runs U.S. government-to-government arms sales.

Many experts had expected Pakistan to seek only about two dozen F-16s, said Richard Aboulafia of Teal Group, a Virginia-based aerospace consultancy.

The numbers cited by Kohler show it wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet, he said, adding this was "very ambitious in terms of regional strategy and very costly."

The single-engine, multi-role F-16 is built by Maryland-based Lockheed Martin Corp. (LMT.N). The new purchases would flesh out a fleet of about 32 F-16s acquired before Congress cut off sales in 1990 over Pakistan's nuclear program.

Kohler, in an interview with Reuters, said Pakistan had requested F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern flown by the United States and the current production standard, similar to exports to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel.

Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defenses and range.

Asked about any Pakistani interest in the Block 60 model, Kohler said: "They did not ask for it and I don't think they could afford it." Kohler held arms-sale talks with defense ministry officials in Pakistan and India last month.

"I think when we go back and talk to them about the cost of the new systems my guess is that they will downsize slightly the (request for) new and they may increase slightly the used," he said.

The Bush Administration announced on Mar. 25 that it would resume sales of F-16s to Pakistan after a 16-year break. The about-face was widely seen as a reward for Pakistan's support of the U.S.-led global war on terrorism.

At the same time, the administration said it would let Boeing Co. (BA.N) and Lockheed compete for a potential $9 billion market in India for as many as 126 combat aircraft.

Lockheed is pitching India the same F-16 Block 50/52 and Boeing is offering its dual-engine F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the most modern combat U.S. aircraft currently in full-rate production.

The F-16 C/D Block 50/52 sells for $40 million to $45 million each, depending on options. Boeing's Super Hornet is expected to cost $50 million to $55 million, based on the U.S. Navy's next production batch, Kohler said.

He said India was seeking to produce domestically the majority of the aircraft it eventually buys. It also apparently had invited bids from Sweden, France and Russia, Kohler said.

For Pakistan, U.S. government officials were still weighing the weapons systems, targeting pods, radars and electronic warfare equipment that would be offered as part of a package.

A deal could perhaps be notified to Congress toward the end of the summer, the first step in a process that could lead to deliveries three years after an agreement is signed, he said.
 

BilalK

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE

Is the Mirage 2000-5 cannot be signed (for some reason, lets suppose), would this mean the numbers of JF-17s be increased, and/or would the PAF get a relatively large number used F-16s to back up the new?
 

P.A.F

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #51
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

simple. if we couldn't get the Mirage 2k5 for some strange reason we would look for other options. i don't think we would go for mor e jf-17 or f-16s.
 

umair

Peace Enforcer
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Things have really gone hush hush nowadays. Almost every source of mine clams up upon hearing the word F-16. Info on the Thunder though scarce is still available.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

umair said:
Things have really gone hush hush nowadays. Almost every source of mine clams up upon hearing the word F-16. Info on the Thunder though scarce is still available.
Its not just Hush Hush...things have gone seriously quite. No one knows any thing & those who know dont want to speek. The hush hush comes after several officers were dropped from evaluation & pre-evaluation team just because a news broke out that PAF is about to close a deal on Mirage2000-5. Wheather the news abt Mirage2000-5 was true or false is unknown, but what is unkown & may be true is that PAF indeed is close discussions about a second AC & the sellers seem to be willing. No details though. It is unkown who is the seller (wheather USA or France or may be even Sweden) & what AC is being discussed.

Only high ranking officials have the information, rest are shooting in the dark & saying its probably Mirage2000-5.

On the other hand, Once again some PAF officials have rejected the idea of J-10 purchase. They believe constant upgrades & changes in JF-17 with western avionics (probably French) can take the AC at par with Chinese J-10s (with Chinese avionics) performance. This I got this morning.
 

P.A.F

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  • #54
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.dawn.com/2005/05/27/top5.htm

Pakistan wants 86 F-16s: Pentagon




By Anwar Iqbal
WASHINGTON, May 26: The Pentagon said on Thursday that Pakistan wants to buy as many as 86 F-16 fighter jets from the United States. Of these, 75 would be new F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft while 11 would be used F-16s, head of the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency, Lt Gen Jeffrey Kohler, told reporters in Washington. The agency is responsible for government-to-government arms sales.

“Yes, this figure is correct,†Pakistan’s ambassador in Washington, Jehangir Karamat, told Dawn. “Gen Kohler is the man who is dealing with this sale and he has just returned from Pakistan, so has the latest information,†he said.

Gen Kohler told reporters that Pakistan had requested prices for F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States and the current production standard. Similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel.

Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defences and range. Gen Kohler said Pakistan did not ask for Block 60 model because they were very expensive.

The size of Pakistan’s request has surprised defence experts in Washington who said they had expected Pakistan to seek only about two dozen F-16s. Experts appearing on morning television news shows said the numbers cited by Gen Kohler indicate that Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet.

Gen Karamat, a former army chief, agreed with this observation. “F-16 is a high-tech and high-performance aircraft. After the deliveries, it will be the mainstay of our air force.â€

But Gen Kohler said the Block 50/52 aircraft were also expensive and Islamabad may slightly downsize its request when informed of the cost of the new system. Instead, they may increase the request for the used ones, he added.

Gen Karamat did not disagree with this assumption. “This may happen but it depends on how much money is available in the budget for the F-16s.†The F-16C/D Block 50/52 sells for $40 million to $45 million each, depending on options.

Defending the decision to buy some used aircraft along with the new ones, Mr Karamat said such aircraft go through “complete up-gradation†before they are sold. “It is a thorough up-gradation, with new equipment. Only the airframe remains old and you get a very good deal.â€

Another official at the Pakistan Embassy said Islamabad’s request will now be sent to the US Embassy in Islamabad for an assessment by their country team who will send it back to the Pentagon.

The Pentagon would send the request back to Pakistan with a price tag “and we will either accept it or amend it,†the official said. The proposal will then be sent to the US Congress for approval.

A deal could perhaps be notified to Congress toward the end of the summer, the first step in a process that could lead to deliveries three years after an agreement is signed. US defence experts are still weighing the weapons systems, targeting pods, radars and electronic warfare equipment that would be offered to Pakistan as part of a package.

On March 25, the Bush administration announced it would resume selling F-16s to Pakistan after a hiatus of almost 16 years.

:) seems like a good number. how many squdrons do u think PAF would make with these? SABRE?
 

SABRE

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Verified Defense Pro
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

P.A.F said:
seems like a good number. how many squdrons do u think PAF would make with these? SABRE?

Number seems good. Seems like quick covering of the 20 years waisted or lost in purchase. Guess PAF safe keeping its money was true but on the other hand PM said that separate amount would be allocated for F-16s. Probably from 15 Billion Dollar reserves.

Anywas abt the sqdn. 86+40 = 126. Depends on how many ACs per sqdn PAF places after the ACs arrive. Requirement is in every province. P.A.F wants F-16s at Sargodah, Karachi, Peshawar & Quetta. All before US strike on Iran (that is IF US strikes Iran). Pakistan does not trust current Afghan govt hence requirement is at Peshawar, due to Iran situation requirement is at Quetta. Karachi officials have been asking for very long & Sargodah offcourse.

My guess is abt 5 to 6 Sqdn may be.

Sqdn 7 gets it, Sqdn 11 offcourse gets it. Than I believe sqdn 9 may get it. Rest is in PAF's hands. Lets see.
 

jtcohen

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

My bet is that they end up getting both new aircraft, plus the models they have now upgraded as part of the deal.

I wonder what they plan to do with the Mirage III they have both been aquiring and upgrading. Who'd buy them?

:coffee

Pakistan seeks as many as 75 new F-16 warplanes
Thu May 26, 2005 01:05 AM ET

By Jim Wolf WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Pakistan has asked about buying as many as 75 new F-16C/D Falcon fighter aircraft since the Bush administration announced it would resume sales, the head of the Pentagon agency handling the matter said on Wednesday.

Pakistan also has asked about buying 11 used F-16s, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, which runs U.S. government-to-government arms sales.

Many experts had expected Pakistan to seek only about two dozen F-16s, said Richard Aboulafia of Teal Group, a Virginia-based aerospace consultancy.

The numbers cited by Kohler show Pakistan wants to make the F-16 a mainstay of its combat aircraft fleet, he said, terming this "very ambitious in terms of regional strategy and very costly."

The single-engine, multi-role F-16 is built by Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed Martin Corp. The new purchases would flesh out a fleet of about 32 F-16s acquired before Congress cut off sales in 1990 over Pakistan's nuclear program.

The potential Pakistan orders could keep open the F-16 production line, which is scheduled to close in 2008. The line employs about 5,000 people in Fort Worth, Texas. A Lockheed spokesman, Joe Stout, declined to comment on the size of Pakistan's possible order.

DOWNSIZING A POSSIBILITY

Kohler, in an interview with Reuters, said Pakistan had requested prices for F-16 Block 50/52 aircraft, the most modern F-16s flown by the United States and the current production standard. Similar aircraft have been exported to Poland, Greece, Chile, Oman and Israel.

Only the United Arab Emirates flies a more advanced variant, Block 60, with improved radar, defenses and range.

Asked about any Pakistani interest in the Block 60 model, Kohler said: "They did not ask for it and I don't think they could afford it."

Kohler held arms-sale talks with defense ministry officials in Pakistan and India last month.

"I think when we go back and talk to them about the cost of the new systems my guess is that they will downsize slightly the (request for) new and they may increase slightly the used," he said.

The Bush Administration announced on March 25 that it would resume sales of F-16s to Pakistan after a nearly 16-year break. The about-face was widely seen as a reward for Pakistan's support in the U.S.-led global war on terrorism.

At the same time, the administration said it would let Boeing Co. and Lockheed compete for a potential $9 billion market in India for as many as 126 combat aircraft.

Lockheed is pitching India the same F-16 Block 50/52 and Boeing is offering its dual-engine F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, the most modern combat U.S. aircraft currently in full-rate production.

The F-16C/D Block 50/52 sells for $40 million to $45 million each, depending on options. Boeing's Super Hornet is expected to go for $50 million to $55 million, based on the price of the U.S. Navy's next production batch, Kohler said.

India has not yet asked about acquiring state-of-the-art F-16 Block 60 aircraft, he said.

He said India was seeking to co-produce or co-assemble domestically the majority of the aircraft it eventually buys. It also apparently had invited bids from Sweden, France and Russia, Kohler said.

For Pakistan, U.S. government officials were still weighing the weapons systems, targeting pods, radars and electronic warfare equipment that would be offered as part of a package.

A deal could perhaps be notified to Congress toward the end of the summer, the first step in a process that could lead to deliveries three years after an agreement is signed, Kohler said.
 

adsH

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I don't think downsizing would occur since PAF understands if it procures new builds it would be allot cheaper in the long run then acquiring older MLU versions. i'm sure PAF is aware of the price per-unit and have done the math Thaaaa!!, and they have sufficient funds to accommodate the PUBLICLY stated figure. If they still want to go ahead with the purchase i'm sure Public Loans would be made available since Pakistan has sufficient credits to acquire defense equipments. The economy has taken a turn Over 7% growth this year http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_22-4-2005_pg5_10

Although the the Share trade volume on Pak KSE is amazingly high the market depth is still lagging behind. but never the less a considerable FDi is flowing in, just wait till Pak becomes an FTA country, the Oils and Cheap labour products from gowadar would certainly justify a credible defense. The GOV just announced Tax free industrial lands allotment near gowader. so i really don't see how anyone with the least bit of Economic knowledge could say pakistan won't be able to procure newer builds F-16 they did order them ten years ago.
 

jtcohen

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

There is no question Lockheed Martin wants to keep the production line open a while longer too, so there is certainly pressure in Washington to get this underway.
 

SABRE

Super Moderator
Verified Defense Pro
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

jtcohen said:
My bet is that they end up getting both new aircraft, plus the models they have now upgraded as part of the deal.

I wonder what they plan to do with the Mirage III they have both been aquiring and upgrading. Who'd buy them?

.
The news u r reading or hearing now days may be true but as mentioned b4 there is serious hush hush....only the allowed information leaks out. Down sizing or uo sizing is in hush hush. Unless some high ranking official says some thing.
If the news paper does not quote any high ranking known official or concerned official than dnt take the news seriously.

Abt Mirage-3s....I asked this question & it seems Mirage-3 ROSE, F-7PG & Q-5 are not going any where.

Mirage-3s have been upgraded to better range, radar & BVR. They are as good as Israeli Kfir. There is a talk going on, on changing Mirage-3s design a bit like Kfir & Atlas Cheetah. Lets see. PAF has been asking france provide multi attacking systems for Mirage-3s. This happens mirage-3 stays in game for say 8 to 10 more years.

On the other hand few countries have been hoping that we dump our oldies instead of grounding them e.g: Afghanistan, Bangladesh & also North Korea. Since they noticed that these oldies are also goldies.

I doubt any thing would be given to Afghanistan since 1) they cant pay 2) the govt there is not Pakistan's favorite. 3) China wont allow F-7 & Q-5 dumping there

BTW A5 or Q5 is not going to be dumped. Many PAF officials say they'll keep them as long as China is making them & upgrading them.

North Korea u get the idea...we just cant.

Bangladesh seems to be no.1 contendor to get F-7Ps, some Mirage-3s n may be some Q5s.
 
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A Khan

New Member
Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Giving them to Bangladesh will be a good choice. They are also a potential costumer for the JF-17, so that should create some level of "goodwill" for the future sales, so its good to help them meet their defence needs.

With regards to Afghanistan, they currently seem to have other more pressing defence needs (their army) then equipping their Air Force. The US is there so the best Air defence in the world is avaliable, may be when US starts leaving they should consider buying AC's. By then JF-17 should be ready for export orders!:)
 
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