Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

P.A.F

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

i think we should keep them. especially the mirages because we have a rebuilding factory in pakistan. we have invested alot of money in our mirage program. also SAGAM of France is willing to help all the way.
 

adsH

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

The Mirages have been a testbed as i see it for PAF. to experiment with Avionic technology. i'm sure the newly established Avionics University Research is tied into the whole production and assembly process somehow. So when the Jf-17 are there then you guys can let go of the mirages and focus on platforms that have more potential.
 

P.A.F

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

well i'm sure all 100+ aren't test beds. maybe 10-20. these birds are great and our aussie mirages have been upgraded very lately. i know that PAF would use these jets to the max. once JF-17 comes in i bet u that these would would be configured to martime and A2G roles now that they have BVR and many other features;). f-16, JF-17 and the mistery jet where getting would be the molti-role dudes.
 

asaracen

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Guys /Umair / Sabre, do you have any updates on:

What sort of avionics package we'll be going for? What will be Radar range?
Any news on AMRAMs for new F16s?

Do you believe we will be short changed on the avionics, as compared to what was supplied to Israelis? - like Saudi F15s Radars were once!

Would Pakistan order conformal? fuel tanks, or whatever they are called - the spine piggy back type!

A lot of question here, but I am in the company of experts!!
 

SABRE

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

asaracen said:
What sort of avionics package we'll be going for? What will be Radar range?
Hush, Hush....no nothing

Any news on AMRAMs for new F16s?
Nothing there either...my guess is yes. But I am no LH-M weapons dealer or US weapons approaver....depends on congress i think.

Do you believe we will be short changed on the avionics, as compared to what was supplied to Israelis? - like Saudi F15s Radars were once!
Hmmm...unlikely..no tempering. US knows PAF's & Pakistan's requirements when comparing to its enemies & threats which are now in West as well as in East. Count Iran in.

Would Pakistan order conformal? fuel tanks, or whatever they are called - the spine piggy back type!
Never asked any one...dont think so.

A lot of question here, but I am in the company of experts!!
Yes a lot of questions to which there are either no answers or limited replies....On the other hand I am no expert. Umair is though. Also GF & Highsea but I doubt they have answers.
 

asaracen

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Good Man Sabre, I like the spirit! We'll have to wait until Umair is free from exams.
In the mean time, may be we could continue to have benefit of your knowledge - why can't we compliment our block 50/52s with say a squadron or two of block 60/62 (rather than Rafale - although it is my A/C of choice). Since our boys already fly block 60 in UAE, it would save on training and perhaps on maintenance etc.

What is difference between block 52 & 52+, and are we getting them??
 

SABRE

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

asaracen said:
Good Man Sabre, I like the spirit! We'll have to wait until Umair is free from exams.
In the mean time, may be we could continue to have benefit of your knowledge - why can't we compliment our block 50/52s with say a squadron or two of block 60/62 (rather than Rafale - although it is my A/C of choice). Since our boys already fly block 60 in UAE, it would save on training and perhaps on maintenance etc.

What is difference between block 52 & 52+, and are we getting them??
I have a limited knowledge so no point testing it....not much difference between Block 50/52 (C/D) & Block 60 (E/F) on the basis of weapons systems I think...in avionics Block 60 has better range, better radar (hence better range of radar). It has two extarnal Fuel Tanks so more fuel capacity. The difference is such that if u put same AESA Radar on Block 52+ u'll have almost the same aircraft except for the range. I could be wrong though.

The F-16 expert I believe is "highsea"...he is a mod here. Either PM him to reply here or reply back to u in PM or wait till he visits the thread. Other wise GF is also there he can tell u alot.
 

webmaster

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE said:
I have a limited knowledge so no point testing it....not much difference between Block 50/52 (C/D) & Block 60 (E/F) on the basis of weapons systems I think...in avionics Block 60 has better range, better radar (hence better range of radar). It has two extarnal Fuel Tanks so more fuel capacity. The difference is such that if u put same AESA Radar on Block 52+ u'll have almost the same aircraft except for the range. I could be wrong though.

The F-16 expert I believe is "highsea"...he is a mod here. Either PM him to reply here or reply back to u in PM or wait till he visits the thread. Other wise GF is also there he can tell u alot.
Also, price difference is huge as well so it is unlikely that Pakistan can afford block-60.
 

adsH

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE said:
I have a limited knowledge so no point testing it....not much difference between Block 50/52 (C/D) & Block 60 (E/F) on the basis of weapons systems I think...in avionics Block 60 has better range, better radar (hence better range of radar). It has two extarnal Fuel Tanks so more fuel capacity. The difference is such that if u put same AESA Radar on Block 52+ u'll have almost the same aircraft except for the range. I could be wrong though.

The F-16 expert I believe is "highsea"...he is a mod here. Either PM him to reply here or reply back to u in PM or wait till he visits the thread. Other wise GF is also there he can tell u alot.

The Block 60 is 60 percent differnt from the Block 50 USAF, incremental development first 30 percent for the Greek batch and the second for the Israeli, so the Block 60 is technically clos to the Israeli Suffa. the Dorsal spine is required if you want the APG-80 AESA radar. its liquid cooled since it reuirs cooling. the Block 60 uses Fiber distributed Chennels instead of the553B databus. which means Data is trasmitted from one section to the other useing two fiber optic cables. The fiber optics allows federated boxes to communicate and provide the same benefit as the F/A-22's integrated avionics. The same technology is used in the Joint Strike Fighter.

The new digital flight-control system uses the same F-16 control laws, rewitten from Jovial into C++ and rehosted on to commercial processors(PowerPC architecture (Motorola)). The basic structure of the software has been changed to add the advanced autopilot and enhanced safety modes.

Half of the structural changes in the Block 60 are for increased strength, and half are for systems installation and routing. Changes include thicker bulkheads, stronger aluminium-lithium skins and unitised structures.

Compared with the USAF-standard F-16C/D Block 50, at least 70% of the structure is changed; the core avionics are new, as are the active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, integrated forward-looking infrared and targeting system (IFTS) and electronic-warfare (EW) suite; and the cockpit and fly-by-wire flight controls are significantly enhanced. Compared with the original F-16A/B, maximum take-off weight is increased by 50% to 22,700kg (50,000lb) and engine thrust by 35% to 32,500lb (145kN).

There will be three standards 0 , 1 , 2, 3 the Three is where the Weapon system will be in the final delivery stages. the 0 is where the three prototypes would be handed over to UAEAF for pilot training and this is where the Testing system would be kept while the main gun would be missing. Standard 1 provides capabilities equivalent to the Block 50 F-16: Standards 2 and 3 are software-only upgrades that will be performed in-country. The breakthrough capabilities hit the aircraft with Standard 2. autoflight modes - terrain following will come in with Standard 2, for example - and datalink functions.

design work on the pilot-vehicle interface through to Standard 3 has been completed and the full operational capability demonstrated in the simulator. Flight International was able to preview some of the capabilities planned for the Block 60 in the simulator at Fort Worth. These include safety-enhancing features such as automatic recovery from deep stall and automatic ground collision avoidance.

Possibly the biggest change in the Block 60 from earlier F-16s is in the core avionics and flight controls, in which the unique military processors are replaced with commercial PowerPCs. There are 1.3 million lines of new software. Existing F-16 mission computer and flight control software has been rewitten from Ada and Jovial into the C++ commercial high-order language, then built on to provide the additional capabilities of the Block 60.
 

highsea

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

asaracen said:
...What is difference between block 52 & 52+, and are we getting them??
The 52+ has some enhanced capabilities for all-weather JDAM delivery, an add-on SAR unit, terrain referenced nav, a new missile warning system, and a newer EW/ECM suite.

The two seater Block 50/52's have the full dorsal avionics spine, which is mission configurable, and all Block 50/52's can take CFT's. As adsH's post says, the Block 60 has a beefed up airframe to handle the extra weight, and a new cockpit with color MFD's, among other improvements such as the APG-80 AESA.

Weapon-wise, they are pretty comparable, the Block 60 has the AN/ASQ-28 IFTS (Internal FLIR and Targeting System) which replaces the earlier pod, and CFT's which free up underwing hardpoints. The new avionics take some features from the F-22, color coded threat, shoot, and bomb lists, etc.
 

rafale_2k5

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I highly doubt that BLOCK-60 was ever a contender, thing about block 50/52with AESA is another rumour , PAF block 52s would be fairlybasic, n theyre stil evaluating the avionics plus weapon configurations, as hinted by gen Kohlers interview, because he himself hinted that PAF may reduce the numbers when they hear the prices, plus i have my doubts whether such advanced technologies like AIM-9X or AMRAAM vercion "C" would be ultimately delivered n all probabilities it would be "B" version of AMRAAM since if we go back n look at the official statements PAF basically wanted a fighter with BVR capability so my guess is without AMRAAMs they wont be goin 4 F-16 at all, n the reason these configurations r bein discussed is basically to tell PAF regarding what is available n what not!!!!!!!!!!! with reference to approval by Congress!!!!!!!!
 

P.A.F

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_29-5-2005_pg3_7

Change in government’s attitude

Sir: I was not surprised to read a news report from Washington detailing the Pakistani government’s intention of purchasing 75 brand new F-16s and 11 second-hand aircraft. What annoys me, however, is why the Pakistani news media forced to rely upon pronouncements from Washington to learn about the foreign policy objectives of the Pakistani government.

In this case it would have been much better if the ISPR had earlier issued a statement saying Pakistan was interested in purchasing a large number of aircraft and had approached the US government. Moreover, that the government was interested in the F-16 C/D and not the E/F model because of the price differential. This is only one such example of how information is kept from the Pakistani media, who are forced to rely upon foreign sources for credible news about Pakistan. Often the foreign sources are better placed in reporting information about what is really going on in Pakistan and the Pakistani media only reprints and restates what they have stated rather than going to the original source of information, the government of Pakistan, which keeps them in the dark. This must change.

Finally, I am concerned that in the last Arms package reported for Pakistan, only 300 of the latest model sidewinder missiles were mentioned. Surely this is not enough for an expanded F-16 fleet. The US government wants to keep the Pakistan Air Force on a short leash, by limiting the supply of missiles needed in any war in the future. This is unacceptable. Pakistan should stock large quantities of missiles and bombs for its F-16s, and vigorously pursue ‘transfer of technology’ for the Sparrow, Maverick and Paveway in addition to the Block 50/52 C/D.

Buying 75 new aircraft will keep the Lockheed Martin’s factories in business for quite some time and the deal must be structured around ‘transfer of technology’, as was the US offer to India. Without transfer of technology, Pakistan will remain far too dependent for the next 50 years on American goodwill for spare parts.
OMAR MIRZA
New York

_____________________________________________________________

this is a letter writen to dailytimes.
 

adsH

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

P.A.F said:
Finally, I am concerned that in the last Arms package reported for Pakistan, only 300 of the latest model sidewinder missiles were mentioned. Surely this is not enough for an expanded F-16 fleetOMAR MIRZA
New York[/b]
_____________________________________________________________

First of all who said it was for the expanded F-16 fleet, PAF hasn't signed any agreements to procure anything. these Sidewinders are probably for the current F-16 fleet to enhance the Immediate WVR A2A capability. And i'm sure when PAf procures the Block 52 they would go for the AIM 9x.

to Rafael: LM has been working on an intermediate solution where they bridge the gap between the Block 60 and the Block 52, obviously the structural modification make the the two platforms very different (And unfeasible to upgrade), so the Plan is to introduce the AESA radar into the Block 52, you will need the Dorsal spine in this configuration since the Radar's liquid cooling system is housed in it. The USAF plans to introduce the Extra features of the Block 60 in the Block 50/52, just incase the JSF is delayed.
 

SABRE

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

adsH said:
these Sidewinders are probably for the current F-16 fleet to enhance the Immediate WVR A2A capability. And i'm sure when PAf procures the Block 52 they would go for the AIM 9x.
Yes they are for the current fleet. They are being bought under previous agreements. AIM-9X may come with new agreements on Weapons system for Block 52C/D. Than the can be equipend on A/B once they are MLUed.

LM has been working on an intermediate solution where they bridge the gap between the Block 60 and the Block 52, obviously the structural modification make the the two platforms very different (And unfeasible to upgrade), so the Plan is to introduce the AESA radar into the Block 52, you will need the Dorsal spine in this configuration since the Radar's liquid cooling system is housed in it. The USAF plans to introduce the Extra features of the Block 60 in the Block 50/52, just incase the JSF is delayed.
I think Israeli F-16s of Block 50C/D have AESA Radar. They have the dorsal spine as well...the pic is available at f-16.net
PAF can also go for the similar coustomization. But most of the F-16 will be basic i guess.
 

rafale_2k5

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

I think Israeli F-16s of Block 50C/D have AESA Radar. They have the dorsal spine as well...the pic is available at f-16.net
PAF can also go for the similar coustomization. But most of the F-16 will be basic i guess.[/QUOTE]

Soufas dont carry AESA , heres a quote:
The F-16I has also been earmarked to receive the new Python 5 imaging infrared-guided high agility air-to-air missile produced by Rafael, which has a new seeker less prone to countermeasures, lock-after-launch capabilities, and an extended operational engagement time once fired.

In addition, the Northrop Grumman AN/APG-68(V)9 multimode radar increases the distance of airborne engagement by 30% over the older APG-69 system and affords the Sufah with a high-resolution synthetic-aperture ground mapping capability.

http://www.f-16.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1002&ez=2
 

adsH

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

SABRE said:
I think Israeli F-16s of Block 50C/D have AESA Radar. They have the dorsal spine as well...the pic is available at f-16.net
PAF can also go for the similar coustomization. But most of the F-16 will be basic i guess.

The Israeli Suffas use Customized EW and Navigation and i think advanced flight and mission management system systems that replaces the original LM approved systems ELbit provides these equipments. the communications systems include a Rafael UHF/VHF radio and an HF radio, Elta satellite communications and an IAI integrated tactical video data link. All these systems are substitutable with either french or Swedish or american systems that LM would integrate into the AC according to the Customization package chosen by PAF.



I think the Flight control systems are not differnt at all (not too sure if they use PowerPC processors). So yeah you can basically have the exact same thing that the Israeli's got but with the American systems in them. i personally think the F-16i are basically the customized variants of the Block 52+ with high level of israeli input ie indigenous solutions. So you can all the next PAF F-16, F-16p lol!!
 

asaracen

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Well, Well, Now we have a torrent of in depth information - it will take me a while to digest! Thanks to the F16 scholars - Adsh, Highsea and the webmaster - Umair's return awaited eagerly, hopefully with some news on spec. and the final numbers.



One of my questions still remains unanswered, and that is:

For the price of a Rafale (present costs, and not when a cheaper multi role export version is available), could we not buy a Desert Falcon E/F? The published prices of both match somewhat? but how do their specs compare? Is not the AESA Radar still a pie in the sky for Rafale and off the shelf for Block 60 Falcons?



Furthermore, the price is not the only factor; it is the total cost of ownership. French A/C are not only expensive, but they charge exorbitant prices for spares (Pres. Musharraf’s comments, that Mirage plastic parts are more expensive than Gold - literally) surely we could save bags on training and maintenance. Also in a tight bind again with that most unreliable of allies, perhaps we could come and go with UAE on (parts and technical info), as a friendly country. Do you not think Turkey and other friendly countries helped us throughout the long embargo years?



I appreciate the downside of putting all your eggs, in one hell of an undependable basket. And I am an old and ardent advocate of Rafale and trust French (as long as you have cash in your pocket), but with the sole export user, the French could hold us over the barrel on spares prices, and if there are no other users, for financial reasons they could close down the manufacturing. Whereas we know the F16’s will be supported for a long time to come.
 

jtcohen

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

Your right about that long time to come part, for sure.

Yep, I live in Toulon and often see the air wing, nice aircraft but France is not making a smart decison to continue with a model that no has no other customers, well at least the Govt ordered 56 a few months ago, even the Gripen would be a better deal. Overall though the F-16 is a fine choice, I am sure a PL-8 or 11 could be fitted in a seperate launch mode, I don't think it'd be impossible.
 

adsH

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

jtcohen said:
I am sure a PL-8 or 11 could be fitted in a seperate launch mode, I don't think it'd be impossible.

I doubt that would be allowed, PAF won't get the necessary clearance to Integrate Chinese Missiles simply because you'd have Chinese Engineers poking around F-16C/D which would make US uneasy about the whole deal. The US afew years back held PAF back from integrating the SD-10 on the F-16 fleet, so i'm sure you'd see restrictions coming with the new deal.

If you want to save money you can purchase a set number of the AC with AESA Radar system and the rest of them can be equipped with an indigenous Radar the Italian variants. There are other sources you can go and get your EW systems that could be installed on the F-16.

The israelis saved Cash by procuring there own stuff for the Suffa like the terrain mapping system an advance feature in the Block 60, which was included in ths suffa, thanks to Rafael. They also started coproduction of the AN/APG-68(V)9. So you see there are ways of saving money and getting something similar to the F-16E/F obviously you wouldn't get the Structural Modification of the Block 60 and the newer Avionic systems. but you can have something worth while.
 

highsea

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Re: Pakistan Airforce News and Discussions

adsH said:
...so the Plan is to introduce the AESA radar into the Block 52, you will need the Dorsal spine in this configuration since the Radar's liquid cooling system is housed in it.
The secondary ECS for the APG-80 is located in the dorsal spine on two-seaters only. On the single seaters, it is located in the vertical fin fairing. I don't think there are any obstacles to putting the APG-80 into Block 50/52 AC as they are currently configured.
Sabre said:
I think Israeli F-16s of Block 50C/D have AESA Radar. They have the dorsal spine as well...the pic is available at f-16.net
PAF can also go for the similar coustomization. But most of the F-16 will be basic i guess.
All of Israel's Block 40 and Block 50 F-16D's have the enlarged spine. The avionics installed is not public information, but it it assumed to carry Wild Weasel equipment and some bomb guidance hardware integrated into the WSO's side stick controller. All of the new Israeli F-16's have the APG-68(v)9 radar.

The enlarged spine adds about 30 cu.ft. of avionics space, but it is not specific to any particular piece of hardware. It can hold jamming equipment, countermeasures, etc, and is only installed on the two-seater AC (D and F versions).
 
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