Official Chengdu J-20 Discussion Thread
King Comm
New Member
If you think about it, China already has a lot of the things necessary for a true 4th generation fighter.
For one, China already has three types of AESA in service, in KJ-2000 and KJ-200 AWACS and Type 052C destroyer, one that can fit into a fighter shouldn't be beyond reach. Advanced avionics,
JF-17 features a total glass cockpit, a weapon and mission management computer built around a powerful processor, and distributed power management system. J-10B features a wide angle holographic HUD, large LCD displays have being displayed in various air shows.
Engines, the reason why most people believe that China won't come up with a sufficient engine in time is because of the time it took the Americans to come up with F119 after F100. However, work on F119 only started after F100 was completed, if the new Chinese engine didn't start after WS10 was completed, but ran parallel to it, than it could come out a lot sooner than people expect, and even if the new engine can not be ready in time, Saturn 117S is still available.
As to the aerodynamic layout, as early as 2001, the designer of J-10, Song Wencong, proposed a radical design featuring high degree of instability in the pitch axis, delta wings with LERX, directional control canard, and small all moving rudders, though the original paper discussed Caret type intake, judging by what we have seen so far, DSI is more likely. Over the years, LERX was tested on JF-17, DSI was tested on both JF-17 and J-10B, and directional control canard was tested on J-10.
So the only thing we know virtually nothing about is stealth capability. But rumour has it that China obtained pieces of the downed F-117 from Serbia.
There is a lot going under the hood and external to the F-22/35 that make them so great. Again, think systems. Even if the Chinese could make an aircraft like the F-22 with it's exact performance characteristics it would still not have the avionics or benefit from the external enablers all USAF platforms do. This isn't a realistic threat until will into the 2020's considering the bar will continue to be raised and they are playing catch up. The rate of advance is exponential and not linear.
-DA
-DA
So first thing is first. AESA arrays on destroyers, AWACS, and GBAD is different from operational AESA on a fighter. Not to mention I would state that it takes 2nd or 3rd gen AESA for a true 5th gen. Yes China can produce capable 4th gen fighters (though not without some help). They are not a few years away from an operating 5th gen.
Provided that Russia is willing to export license and ToT for the Al-41 (117S). Hasn't been the case recently. And if it's developed in parallel, how much more advanced really is it? Without operating experience from the WS-10, a new engine design would be limited in terms of how far it can improve.
The airframe issue is one of combining multi-aspect LO with aerodynamic viability. The F-117 is ancient in this regard, practically useless. How much they could glean from obtaining some pieces of it is questionable.
Again the Chinese are moving fast, but not that fast. Some things require time to build up.
actually, avionics is one part that they are not as far behind the West. If they can get the radar signature down to the level of F-22, that would be amazing. And let's not forget, engine remains the achille's heel of PLA
Aww bitchin, I totally dig your blog dude. Just a shame you dont post more often
, but keep up the good work and the valuable insights!If you say so, tho I remain sceptical. Because the F-22 and especially the F-35 avionics are realllllly advanced, and the level of integration and the amount of computer power are quite staggering.
I think I dare to add that every system works different on aircraft. Think about it, power supply, weight, size are ,much less of an issue on a ship or a large airborne platform than on a fighter plane.
King Comm
New Member
Well, from Chinese official source, about the feats of the director of 607 institute, mentioning the completion of AESA for the "X gen" fighter as one of his major achievments. The prototype was completed in 2008 and tested on an airborne testbed (Y-8CB?). And now the Chinese have 8-10 years to perfect it.
Keep in mind that WS-10 is based on the older WS-6 and CFM-56, both came out in the 70's, the technologies were already quite mature when WS-10 started, the new engine could have just used a lot more newer, and untested technologies, which explains why it takes much longer to complete than WS-10. But for the first flight which will happen soon, both WS-10A and AL-31F or even D-30K can be used, Supercruise capability is not needed for the maiden flight and ground testing.
Pieces of the F-117 provides information on radar absorbent materials.
Note that F-22's aerodynamic layout was set in the early 80's, understandings of aerodynamics, flight control, and signature reduction progressed massively since then, just look at the X-36 technology demonstrator, the ideas are way ahead of F-22, and it's from the mid-90's, So basically, if the Chinese can reach the same level in aerodynamics and flight control as the US in the late 90's, something with superior maneouverability and supercruise capability, and comparable or slightly inferior low observability is achievable.
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US sig management is not based around the F-22. Bear in mind that the F-22 is fundamentally their 3rd iteration of an operational deliberately designed LO platform. It's a bow tie design which is already being supplanted. In development terms although the JSF is not as "superior" at an RCS level, the tech for it as generationally (physical) more advanced. Its RCS is relative to its mission. In other areas bear in mind that the US is also on an equiv 6th physical generation of unmanned asset and that in technical terms, those platforms are also technically superior to the F-22.
also, looking at RAM for the F-117 is really 30 year old technology, and in real terms (from Have Blue genealogy) its close to 40 years old. That RAM was also specific to that iteration of sig management - it is positively archaic in contemp terms in fact its not that far removed from what the US was doing with their ferret surveillance lightning bugs.
You just can't pull tech from one asset and attach it to something else, thats not how it works at an engineering level
So I found this article and picture on another forum. Looks intresting.
Its just a mockup but it sure looks like the chines has come a long way.
View attachment 3997
Its just a mockup but it sure looks like the chines has come a long way.
View attachment 3997
It is a nice CG done by someone, but it is fake and it is really old too.
Its a Photoshop. The person who made this pic cleared it up on Sinodefenceforum right when the picture began to appear all over the internet.
The only thing I have more trouble believing than the notion that the J-xx is a 4.5 gen is the notion that it's almost ready for maiden flight. I don't expect to see it for another year, at least.
Overzealous fanboys. A lot of Chinese nationalists don't like being seen underneath Russia's shadow. The PAK-FA's first flight will definitely be getting some push back from Chinese netizens. In any case Chinese internet rumours are worse than gossip in a sowing circle.
Photo
May have seen an overhead shot from the rear of the airframe on Wall83's photo. Unfortunately haven't been able to find it again so if it was then it has possibly been pulled. The photo showed it still in yellow primer with engineers working on the upper surfaces. Definitely had twin tail fins which would point to twin engines. Could have been something else, though believe I was looking around at photo's of the J-10 at the time.
May have seen an overhead shot from the rear of the airframe on Wall83's photo. Unfortunately haven't been able to find it again so if it was then it has possibly been pulled. The photo showed it still in yellow primer with engineers working on the upper surfaces. Definitely had twin tail fins which would point to twin engines. Could have been something else, though believe I was looking around at photo's of the J-10 at the time.
haveblue128
New Member
No 21 C Defense Industrial Base-no 5th Gen Fighter
I agree with SABRE and take it a step further. This is good PS, but nothing more. Regardless of the veracity of Sino, we all know that it is unusual for a single point reference -especially from the net- to stand up to scrutiny from other sources. No single point of information is valid unless triangulated. In this case, the facts on the ground are inconsistent with statements that have come from the leadership in China.To design and produce 5th Gen fighters, you need a defense industrial base to support that work. China wants it, but is far from it. Their technological knowledge is improving, but they are still not close to having the ability to produce defense platforms on the order they would like, at least not on an indigenous basis. As noted below, to produce an avionics suites and other high-tech hardware required to complete a complex puzzle like this, a 21 C industrial base is requisite. No 21 C DIB, no 5th Gen fighter. Doesn't matter if you are good with reverse engineering or have borrowed/stolen a design or both. You may have the design, but lacking necessary hardware and the requisite number of technically trained personnel who have experience and the knowledge base to complete this work, it is all Photoshop as below, China is headed in this direction, but has yet to make needed progress.
Photo
Have checked around and Wall83's photo appears to emanate around 2006, which does put something of a question mark on things. Have seen an overhead shot of an airframe very similar though this was a couple of months ago, wasn't able to find it again not long after. As far as I can remember the airframe was twin engined appeared to have nozzles in place. Also fairly certain it had canards, the airframe was in yellow primer and looked prepped for painting (joins had been sealed (filled) and flattened). Obviously doesn't mean to say that it was a picture of the J-XX. Though will be interesting to see if anything pops it's head over the parapet in the future. Believe the authorities where a little upset when the J-10 leaked ahead of it's official unveiling. So the fact it's hard to find info on the J-XX shouldn't necessarily be a surprise.
Have checked around and Wall83's photo appears to emanate around 2006, which does put something of a question mark on things. Have seen an overhead shot of an airframe very similar though this was a couple of months ago, wasn't able to find it again not long after. As far as I can remember the airframe was twin engined appeared to have nozzles in place. Also fairly certain it had canards, the airframe was in yellow primer and looked prepped for painting (joins had been sealed (filled) and flattened). Obviously doesn't mean to say that it was a picture of the J-XX. Though will be interesting to see if anything pops it's head over the parapet in the future. Believe the authorities where a little upset when the J-10 leaked ahead of it's official unveiling. So the fact it's hard to find info on the J-XX shouldn't necessarily be a surprise.
I think you're underestimating China's industrial base a little...