Official Chengdu J-20 Discussion Thread

kams

New Member
:confused: you got to be kidding China is the world's fastest growing market for semiconductors and ranks as the world's third largest market, with $19 billion in annual sales, and it is expected to become the world's second largest market by 2010.

http://www.sia-online.org/backgrounders_china.cfm
It would be helpfull if you read my post carefully. For your benefit,

Both of you made identical statements. I am curious to know in what way China is ahead of Russia in Electronics? Is it in sheer volume of investment and out-put in semiconductors or technology wise? If its former, you may be right. But regarding latter, both China and Russia are in the same level.
I was not disputing the growth and size of Chinese semiconductor industry. As I posted, about 50% of Chinese semiconductor industry is related to IC assembly and Packaging. All figures I quoted are from Chinese Semiconductor Industry Association (CSIA) who should know the right figures:) .

Now care to comment on second part of my post? i.e Technology

The thinnest chip made in China is 0.18 micron manufactured by Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation, which is owned 100% by Taiwan based corporation. In case of Russia, Mikron makes 0.18 micron chips.
 

uaf

New Member
It would be helpfull if you read my post carefully. For your benefit,



I was not disputing the growth and size of Chinese semiconductor industry. As I posted, about 50% of Chinese semiconductor industry is related to IC assembly and Packaging. All figures I quoted are from Chinese Semiconductor Industry Association (CSIA) who should know the right figures:) .

Now care to comment on second part of my post? i.e Technology
sorry double post
 

uaf

New Member
It would be helpfull if you read my post carefully. For your benefit,



I was not disputing the growth and size of Chinese semiconductor industry. As I posted, about 50% of Chinese semiconductor industry is related to IC assembly and Packaging. All figures I quoted are from Chinese Semiconductor Industry Association (CSIA) who should know the right figures:) .

Now care to comment on second part of my post? i.e Technology
Chill dude chill i am not a eltronic expert and i suggest you READ my post carefully specially my cooments were Chinese boom in eltronic as a whole dont try to pinpoint which is not related to this thread at all or start a new thread on it

Okay ??
 

kams

New Member
Chill dude chill i am not a eltronic expert and i suggest you READ my post carefully specially my cooments were Chinese boom in eltronic as a whole dont try to pinpoint which is not related to this thread at all or start a new thread on it

Okay ??
Huh.. As I recall It was you guys who said China is ahead of Russia in Electronics and I am merely trying to point out that while China has a bigger Electronic Market, is not ahead of Russia in technology.
Advances in microelectronics is directly related to capability to produce advanced weapon systems such as 5th generation Fighters (incidentally F-22 uses 0.8 micron chip:) ).

BTW I am cool :) (can't recall yelling at you, merely putting across my views with evidence). Thats the end of discussion for me.
 

uaf

New Member
Huh.. As I recall It was you guys who said China is ahead of Russia in Electronics and I am merely trying to point out that while China has a bigger Electronic Market, is not ahead of Russia in technology.
Advances in microelectronics is directly related to capability to produce advanced weapon systems such as 5th generation Fighters (incidentally F-22 uses 0.8 micron chip:) ).

BTW I am cool :) (can't recall yelling at you, merely putting across my views with evidence). Thats the end of discussion for me.
Nor i am a defense expert nor i know technical things and i dont think we were disscussing that either you started something out of chapter semiconductor might be a important part of F-22 but if u read my post again please do that for me if you will we were disscussing more on economical data rather than semiconductor chips you can always use GOOGLE if you know G O O G L E for your onw knowledge no one was disscussing what you point out infact i gave you a link so that you can read it but alas you did't

i dont want such a disscussion either i aint got much of free time ( you know time is money )
 

crobato

New Member
Both of you made identical statements. I am curious to know in what way China is ahead of Russia in Electronics? Is it in sheer volume of investment and out-put in semiconductors or technology wise? If its former, you may be right. But regarding latter, both China and Russia are in the same level.
Nope. Do you manufacture MMICs for example? Do you have a supercomputer that is listed among the top 20 in the world? Do you have locally designed and manufactured IPV6 internet routers? Celphone routers? Make LCDs?

You can go through several years of reading siliconstrategies.com.


The thinnest chip made in China is 0.18 micron manufactured by Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation, which is owned 100% by Taiwan based corporation. In case of Russia, Mikron makes 0.18 micron chips.
Nope. The smallest micron made in China today is .09um and they are going to .065 this year or next. Furthermore, this is also made by Grace Semiconductor which is in partnership with some CCCP bigwigs.

Obviously you did not get what I was saying. Look at the growth from 1999 to 2005. Most people do not realize that Russian Economy is growing at more than double the rate of other G-7 countries. Based on that, try to look at where it will be 10, 15, 20 years from now. Then start making your predictions .
And what do you think other countries will be? Currently, most G-7 nations have GDP twice, three times, quadruple of the Russian economy. And what makes you think growth will be sustained? Usually it comes with spurts and slowdowns.

In your opinion Mexico has the same industrial infrastructure as Russia?
Do you really want me to answer this question? You would be surprised.
 

kams

New Member
Firstly thanks for some answers which make sense. I had given up. I am not a Russian. I just got curious by sweeping statements that China has overtaken Russia in Electronics and Googled a bit.
Nope. Do you manufacture MMICs for example? Do you have a supercomputer that is listed among the top 20 in the world? Do you have locally designed and manufactured IPV6 internet routers? Celphone routers? Make LCDs? You can go through several years of reading siliconstrategies.com.
Majority of Chinese Electronics deals with IC assembly and Packaging. They have made great strides, no doubt but not there yet. Wasn't Chinese Super Computer a kind of Parallel Processing (I am not a Comp Geek, what I mean is they tied up lot of AMD OPtron comps together with a linux software) and not like Crays or Sun micro system super computers?



Nope. The smallest micron made in China today is .09um and they are going to .065 this year or next.
This is news to me. I did not come across a single reference saying that. I did some serious googling. Would be helpfull if you could point me to some references.
Furthermore, this is also made by Grace Semiconductor which is in partnership with some CCCP bigwigs.
I remember these guys. They have Jiang Zemin's son as thier backer. There was some crap about Neil Bush also. Something about his trip to China(on behalf of Grace) and some prostitutes.

And what do you think other countries will be? Currently, most G-7 nations have GDP twice, three times, quadruple of the Russian economy. And what makes you think growth will be sustained? Usually it comes with spurts and slowdowns.
I don't know whether growth will be sustained or not. But for the past 3 years its been stable. But you can not discount the growth of last 5 years. There are some good reports by RAND on future of Russian economy. One thing Russia has and China does not is ENERGY SECURITY.



Do you really want me to answer this question? You would be surprised.
Sure, what's Mexico's steel out put? Power Generation, Oil/Gas generation stats, Defence industry etc would be helpful;) .
 
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crobato

New Member
All super computers recently are parallel in design. So what's your point?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godson

In the second half of the third quarter of 2006, China revealed the latest addition to the Godson series, the Godson 2E, which was already in early stage of manufacturing, and mass production was scheduled at the end of the year. According to developers, official tests showed that the Chinese chip can rival Intel Pentium 4 processor in performance and it was superior to the early series of the Pentium IV CPUs, but the Chinese CPU could be produced at a much lower cost.

Unlike processors from Intel, Advanced Micro Devices or Via Technologies, the Godson-2E is not based on the x86 instruction set. Instead, the chip uses a modified version of the MIPS instruction set that replaces proprietary instructions with ones developed by ICT. This means the Godson 2E cannot be used in PCs running Microsoft's Windows XP operating system, and thus the computing devices based on the Godson 2E would be most likely running the Linux operating system.

The processor runs at clock speed of 1 GHz and like other chips in the Godson family, the Godson 2E was designed by the Chinese Academy of Science's Institute of Computing Technology (ICT) and was the first Chinese CPU produced using 90-nanometer process technology. Earlier versions of the Godson 2 chip were produced using a 180-nanometer process and ran at clock speeds up to 500MHz. Godson 2E CPU contains 47 million transistors, more than the 40 million of the Pentium IV. But this processing power will not be a drain on laptop batteries, as power consumption is between 3 to 8 watts, according to Mr. Li Guojie, director of the institute. Mr. Li Guojie also announced that at the end of 2006, scientists would start to upgrade Godson 2E to Godson 2F, which would have performanced improved by about 30% and power consumption reduced by about 50%. By 2008, Godson-3 is scheduled to enter production.
 

crobato

New Member
You can check country stats here.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

I don't know whether growth will be sustained or not. But for the past 3 years its been stable. But you can not discount the growth of last 5 years. There are some good reports by RAND on future of Russian economy. One thing Russia has and China does not is ENERGY SECURITY.
One thing that Russia does not have is massive exports. Maybe you should see why lots of stuff are being exported from Mexico to the US.

Can you say that Russia exports a lot of finished manufactured goods because I have a hard time seeing Made in Russia products in the retail shelves all over the world? Or is your export growth based on exporting mainly raw material?


https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/rs.html

Oil, natural gas, metals, and timber account for more than 80% of exports, leaving the country vulnerable to swings in world prices. Russia's manufacturing base is dilapidated and must be replaced or modernized if the country is to achieve broad-based economic growth. Other problems include a weak banking system, a poor business climate that discourages both domestic and foreign investors, corruption, and widespread lack of trust in institutions. In addition, a string of investigations launched against a major Russian oil company, culminating with the arrest of its CEO in the fall of 2003 and the acquisition of the company by a state owned firm, have raised concerns by some observers that President PUTIN is granting more influence to forces within his government that desire to reassert state control over the economy. State control has increased in the past year with a number of large acquisitions. Most fundamentally, Russia has made little progress in building the rule of law, the bedrock of a modern market economy.
 

Bluemoon

New Member
The Jxx is MIG MFI

in my opinon the Jxx is MIG 1.44 or MFI because russians need chiness money they can easily sold out this ... they are offering on by one to chiness , first SU 27 MKK/UBK then SU 30 and MIG 29 now we heard about the SU 33 2 are comming in china for trails on Carrier in china and they sell will be upto some 50 i think ,, and worth upto 2.5 bn US dollar the 2 higest russian sell ever..
 

zoolander

New Member
Say the EU arm embargo is lifted.. would it help the J-XX program significantly or advanced technology would still not be traded
 

aaaditya

New Member
i doubt that most advanced technology would be traded immediately after the removal of the ban,i believe the advantage that the chinese would have after the lifting of the eu ban would be increased access to the european research facilities,and increased participation in the joint projects would come only at a later date.
 

uaf

New Member
i doubt that most advanced technology would be traded immediately after the removal of the ban,i believe the advantage that the chinese would have after the lifting of the eu ban would be increased access to the european research facilities,and increased participation in the joint projects would come only at a later date.
Defiantly it would be a big leap forward but although France want to trade arms with China I don’t think USA will be happy with such a decision and UK is there to protect American interests nevertheless my judgment is France probably wants to gain ground by offering Peaceful- Nuclear co-operation against the similar one offered by America to India ( can be a counter move for China and can also help Pakistan )

In past France have always proved a trust worthy partner when it comes to arms sale , and we shouldn’t forget EADS also wants to capture huge (potential) market of Chinese civilian aircraft industry keeping in view all this France may push EU for lifting ban of arms embargo as EADS is European Consortium and Boeing is rival company

Lets see what happen ……
 

wp2000

Member
In regards of things that China wants from EU, there are 2 types:

One is the advanced technology in many area, which is irrelevant to the arms embargo. I mean no matter there's a arms embargo document or not, some technologies are not for sale. Other technologies that can be sold will be sold at AGREED prices no matter there is an arms embargo or not.

The other one is large volume of physical systems. That's where the arms embargo is really to be effective. Currently there's a window of opportunety for EU weapon systems, china has the money and will to buy advanced weapon systems. But China may not wait for ever. So if EU wants to sell, that's good. Otherwise China will just keep going.
 

uaf

New Member
In regards of things that China wants from EU, there are 2 types:

One is the advanced technology in many area, which is irrelevant to the arms embargo. I mean no matter there's a arms embargo document or not, some technologies are not for sale. Other technologies that can be sold will be sold at AGREED prices no matter there is an arms embargo or not.

The other one is large volume of physical systems. That's where the arms embargo is really to be effective. Currently there's a window of opportunety for EU weapon systems, china has the money and will to buy advanced weapon systems. But China may not wait for ever. So if EU wants to sell, that's good. Otherwise China will just keep going.
Yea right ... But one thing more perhaps China wont buy plans from Airbus if EU doesn’t list arm embargo at least wont buy much why ?? Because of the huge trade deficit USA, China will prefer Boeing

1-To protect its interests in shape if trade with USA

2-Why should they buy Airbus while sanctions are placed on advance weapon systems.

I saw a program on RT (Russia Today) there is some joint project going on between Airbus and Chinese Co. perhaps it’s the one step forward towards lifting arms embargo

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2006-02/22/content_523005.htm

and perhaps another give and take agreement

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-04/22/content_436476.htm

http://www.boarding.no/art.asp?id=23801

But I also heard news on CNN that Boeing announced it will sale approximately 2700 aircrafts to Chinese companies in next decade.
 

LancerMc

New Member
I think China will be buying alot of Airbus aircraft, because they already have. They just ordered 120 A-320 for their state airlines. It is the second largest single ordered Airbus has ever recieved. So Boeing sure doesn't have a deadlock on sales, but the way Airbus has been going lately in a few years Boeing mite.
 

cheetah

New Member
China Close To Testing Next-Gen Fighter

A Chinese fighter of nominally the same technology generation as the Lockheed Martin F-22 will soon enter flight testing, while a jet airlifter larger than the Airbus A400M should be unveiled by year-end.

Beijing’s fighter announcement suggests a serious failing in U.S. intelligence assessments, mocking a July 16 statement of U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates that China would have no fifth-generation fighters by 2020. Industrial competition looks more remote than strategic competition, however, since China will want to fill domestic requirements before offering the aircraft abroad, even if it judges export sales to be a wise policy.

The new fighter “is currently under development,” says Gen. He Weirong, deputy air force chief. “[It] may soon undertake its first flight, quickly enter flight testing and then quickly equip the forces.

“According to the current situation, [the entry into service] may take another eight to 10 years,” he adds.

No details of the aircraft were given, but it is almost certainly designed for supersonic cruise without afterburning. In April, Adm. Wu Shengli, the navy chief, listed supercruising fighters among equipment that his service needed. Notably, all the other equipment on his wish list looked quite achievable by the end of the next decade, matching the timing that the air force now suggests for the fighter.

China classifies aircraft of the F-22’s technology level as fourth-generation fighters, although they are called fifth-generation aircraft in the West. China’s current advanced fighter, the J-10, is locally called a third-generation aircraft, which in Chinese terms means that it is comparable with the Lockheed Martin F-16.

Work on “the fourth-generation aircraft is now proceeding intensely,” He says.

Whether the upcoming fighter is really comparable with the F-22 remains to be seen. Low radar reflectivity would not be surprising, since aircraft and missiles with stealthy shapes are now popping up in many countries, including South Korea as recently as last month (AW&ST Oct. 26-Nov. 2, p. 42). But sensor performance, information fusion and maximum supercruise speed would also be assessed critically in measuring a claim to have caught up with technology levels that the U.S. did not deploy until 2005.

The existence of a Chinese fifth-generation fighter, usually tagged J-XX, has been rumored for years without official confirmation.

If the aircraft does go into service before 2020, then at that time China may well have jumped past Britain, France and other Western European countries in terms of deployed, domestically developed combat-aircraft technology. That will depend on how quickly those countries move to field combat drones to replace current strike aircraft, says Andrew Brookes of the International Institute for Strategic Studies.
Brookes takes seriously the Chinese objective of technology equivalent to the F-22, and he sees no reason to doubt that the F-22 would be the standard against which they would judge their design. The know-how can be imported.

“The Russians have the technology and the Chinese have the money,” he says. “If they really set that as a target, then I think they can do it.”

The aircraft may not bother Western manufacturers in export markets, Brookes suggests, simply because an equivalent of the F-22 would be a destabilizing export that China would be prefer to keep to itself.

Even if China decides that it wants to export the fighter, Lockheed Martin should by then be well entrenched with the F-35, which should be mature and reliable at that point. Other manufactures may not be so well placed, however.

Gen. He made his remarks during an interview on China Central Television as part of the celebrations of the 60th anniversary of the air force of the People’s Republic of China. (The general’s surname is pronounced as “her” but without the “r.”)

China is probably working on two fifth-generation concepts, says Richard Fisher of the International Assessment and Strategy Center. One of those concepts, appearing most commonly in bits and pieces of evidence that have turned up from time to time, would be a heavy twin-engine fighter probably of about the same size as the F-22. The other is a single-engine aircraft probably closer to the Lockheed Martin F-35.

Gen. He could be referring to either of the aircraft when predicting an entry into service during the next decade. Fisher’s bet is that he is talking about the twin-engine concept.

Like Brookes, Fisher believes China is realistically aiming at the F-22’s technology level. “One has to assume that the People’s Liberation Army is confident in its projections, as it almost never makes such comments about future military programs, especially one that has been as closely held as its next-generation fighter.

“As such, one has to be asking very hard questions: How did the U.S. intelligence community get this one wrong? And inasmuch as no one expects the F-35 to replace the F-22 in the air superiority role, is it time to acknowledge that F-22 production termination is premature and that a much higher number is needed to sustain deterrence in Asia?”

In his July 16 speech, Gates said that even in 2025 China would have but a handful of fifth-generation aircraft.
The new Chinese fighter could come from the Chengdu or Shenyang plants of Avic Defense.

Gen. He says the Chinese air force plans to emphasize development of four capabilities: reconnaissance and early warning, air strike, strategic supply, and air and missile defense.

The J-10 began large-scale service entry in 2006, state media say.

When Wu raised the prospect of a supercruising fighter, an easy answer seemed to be an advanced version of the J-10. That looks less likely now that He describes the future concept as a full generation ahead of the J-10.

“I believe the Chinese have a difficult road if their design is tied to the J-10,” says a U.S. Air Force officer involved in the development of the F-35. “Significantly reduced signature requires more than coatings. It requires an integrated design philosophy with the right shaping, the right structure and the right surface coatings.”

Fisher assumes that China is developing improved fourth-generation fighters in parallel with the fifth generation.

The existence of the airlifter has been known for several years, if only because pictures of it have appeared fleetingly in presentations by the Chinese aviation conglomerate Avic.

As expected, it turns out to be a product of Avic’s large-airplane subsidiary, Avic Aircraft and, more specifically, of the subsidiary’s core plant, Xi’an Aircraft.

Avic Aircraft General Manager Hu Xiaofeng says the airlifter is in the 200-metric-ton class and will be unveiled at the end of this year.

In fact, its design has already unveiled in pictures shown by state media. The four-engine aircraft adopts the universal high-wing, T-tail configuration. The wing is mounted on top of the circular body, rather than passing through a deep segment of it and cutting out much of the usable cross-section. In that respect it is like the A400M, Ilyushin Il-76 and Kawasaki C-X but unlike the C-17, whose embedded wing presents less frontal area.
The main gear of the Chinese aircraft is housed in very protuberant sponsons, like those of the C-17.

A photograph of the cockpit shows five electronic displays of moderate size and conventional transport-style control columns. Engines are not revealed but would presumably be imported from Russia. A wind-tunnel model shows the engines are enclosed in long nacelles, like those of the Perm PS-90 from Russia.

The PS-90 has a standard maximum thrust of 35,300 lb. in its latest version. The C-17, with a gross weight of 265 tons, is powered by four Pratt & Whitney F117 engines of 40,400 lb. thrust.

The airlifter’s fuselage appears to be of conventional metal construction. The aircraft will be significantly larger than the A400M, which has a 141-metric-ton gross weight.

Hu says it has been independently developed in China. However, his parent company, Avic, has a long history of cooperation with Ukrainian airlifter specialist Antonov.


With David A. Fulghum in Washington.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=awst&id=news/CHINA111309.xml&headline=China Close To Testing Next-Gen Fighter

Admin. Up until this point you were doing fine. Don't however try to bait other members or trot out silly comments or you will end up being treated as a troll. It wasn't necessary and you have polluted your credibility by posting such drivel. Take it as a warning - and from a Mod who has asian blood coursing through their veins.
 
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dtwn

New Member
Testing, by no means IOC. For the matter, General He himself states 9-10 years, and 9-10 years = 2019/2020? Add another year or two to achieve IOC and you have it at 2020 or later. Sure, Gates may have estimated 2025, but considering the secretive nature of Chinese development, does it surprise you that the estimates are off?

And your part 1) is simply inflammatory and pointless.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Additionally I would treat with a healthy does of skepticism the supposed capabilities of this fighter. If it's nominally fifth gen, what does this mean in practical terms? We're skeptical of even the Russian PAK-FA, and Russia has AESA, has experience in RCS-reduction (including operationally on the Tu-160, and experimentally on the Su-47) and has extremely advanced 4.5th gen aircraft. Even so, it's questionable on how capable a next-gen fighter will be. Even more so with this Chinese announcement.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
I wrote this in my blog in the second half of this entry
China Air and Naval Power: US/China relations + PLA transparency
to sum up, this will happen. The deputy commander of PLAAF will not come out to talk about a strategically important project like this without assurances from people below with fear of embarassment. When it mentions service entry, that means FOC if you look at the fact that it referred to J-10's service entry as 2006.
 
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