NZDF General discussion thread

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
As I posted elsewhere...

Yes very interesting... I guess the biggest & most positive take-away from this is an open acknowledgement that there is a critical retention problem & that the $90M recently announced is not enough to turn that around. For the last 30 years or so Govt's have chosen to bury their heads in the sand over that very same point. The sceptic in me of course says that they had no choice to acknowledge it given the state the NZDF finds itself in now... but it's refreshing to see it openly acknowledged & admission that a plan needs to be put in place to reverse that.

As to the rest, Jack Tame is right in that previous reviews have also pointed out all the same challenges with regard to climate change & the influence of China...so why do we need to review again when we should just be getting on with it? I'm no fan of Henare as DefMin but he's finally managed to make some coherent sense! COVID has changed the ballpark, both in the retention stakes & on the budgetary front. Since the last review there has also been two very obvious changes that will be driving a review... (1) China's much more visible plan of action in the SC Sea & more importantly in the SouPac...along with the rising tension over Taiwan - ie: more overt talk & action (2) the Russia invasion of Ukraine. Both have an impact for NZ, as Henare admits.

The timing of course isn't great... a new defence review starting a year out from an election that the incumbent will likely struggle to win (frankly)... the BIG thing now is to see what National's response to this is...if they don't say much in support, I'd be very worried given they'll be looking for big $$ savings...and we know who that whipping by usually is! The retention issue does not need to wait for a review so that should progress ...sounds like maybe they acknowledge that.

As to hardware, well yes we know we are pitifully equipped. To take Tame's example of drones etc... most other militaries are streaks ahead with drone capability whereas the NZDF has all along seemed reluctant to get into that space in any seriousness, why the hell is that precisely!?! I did hear (unsubstantiated) whispers that Navy divers were thinking they'd be put out of a job if the Navy invested in remote-controlled mine clearance technology etc... maybe the attitudes in the services need to change... but isn't that a leadership issue! Anyway I could be wrong on that so please don't hang me on that example, but happy to be corrected!

The make-up of the review is clearly one with a focus on foreign affairs etc but that is to be expected I guess. Good to hear Henare put a focus on the RNZN but would like to see the RNZAF role given more prominence too (I'll play my broke record of 'EMAC' again here... invest in the capability now!). With regard to hardware, yes that will only become clear when a review is made then followed by a new capability review / plan so factoring in the election...years away yet!

I'd suggest anyone salivating over questions about the possibility of an ACF, don't read to much into that at this point... the NZDF is so far away from being able to support such a capability at present and given there are so many other more critical needs that all he's really done is sensibly batted that away with the standard 'puff' can't rule it out (& therefore nor can he rule it in!).

At the end of the day it is good to finally see a DefMin openly acknowledging the obvious so maybe, just maybe, NZ's thinking is starting to turn a corner. However a review means little unless there is the budget to then follow through with the recommendations. Hopefully it also won't be an exercise in refocusing way from combat capability. Given the open admissions now about real security concerns it would be extremely difficult for any future Govt to talk down investment in core military capability. Just don't expect a huge lift in spending!
 

CJohn

Active Member
A joint statement from the Defence Ministers of New Zealand and Australia will look to strengthen joint military capabilities and compare notes on major reviews of their defence forces.


Moderator Edit: Added link to official Joint Statement.
NG.


 
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V33A

New Member
"The review was expected to produce numerous strategy documents and conclude half-way through 2024"

What an absolute joke.
Just kicking the can further down the road!
Just get on with rebuilding some form warfighting capability!
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There's an International Defence Rugby Tournament happening here at the moment. It's been crowded out by the IRB Womens Rugby World Cup Tournament that is also occurring here. Any NZDF posted the following on their Facebook page earlier tonight.

facebook_1666165042335_6988402701728123245.jpg

As an aside, if you get a chance to watch the womens RWC tournament either live or on TV, take it because it is very good and exciting rugby to watch.
 

Exkiwiforces

New Member
There's an International Defence Rugby Tournament happening here at the moment. It's been crowded out by the IRB Womens Rugby World Cup Tournament that is also occurring here. Any NZDF posted the following on their Facebook page earlier tonight.

View attachment 49752

As an aside, if you get a chance to watch the womens RWC tournament either live or on TV, take it because it is very good and exciting rugby to watch.
Christ, that’s a flogging & a half! Did the NZDF the bring the Shelford & Going Boy’s out of retirement ?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Christ, that’s a flogging & a half! Did the NZDF the bring the Shelford & Going Boy’s out of retirement ?
It's Sir Buck to us mere peasants now. Uhm Razor has been quiet lately so maybe he was conscripted as a coach behind the scenes :cool: If they win the trophy and someone does a breakdance after the presentation then we'll know. ;)
 

Gooey

Well-Known Member
From The Conversation dated 27 Oct by Alexander Gillespie Professor of Law, University of Waikato:

"Since Jacinda Ardern described the state of world affairs as “bloody messy” earlier this year there have been few, if any, signs of improvement. ..."


Prof Gillespie within says, "...where has New Zealand done well on the international stage, and where might it need to find a louder voice or more constructive proposals?":
1. Russia. He assesses that we have done some good with sanctions, support of the Ukrainian military, and using the International Court of Justice.
2. China & Human Rights. Noting that the UN system is controlled by the perpetrators he suggests that we should join the UN HR Council to continue agitation of the stalled process.
3. Nuclear Disarmament. He makes the observation that declaring something is evil and should be band is not the same as actually doing something constructive.

In summary, I found the article to be overly optimistic, hopelessly nationalistic about what NZ can achieve solo, and despite references to the strategic situation being urgent he does not seem to comprehend the 'alone & unafraid' situation that we have sleep-walked into.

For a Kiwi academic I am surprised that there is also zero comprehension about the role of a balance Defence capability supporting NZ national security.
 

Gracie1234

Well-Known Member
What is of concern is this is the level of thought expressed by our thought leaders, very narrow and not strategic at all. Nothing on the risk we are seeing in the Pacific or Antarctica. This is the sort of thinking that will come out and say the biggest threat to our country is white supremacists.
There are very limited voices who wish to discuss or raise in public what could go wrong close to home due to the way China is acting and what we as a country need to prepare for if it does. Just rolling out the excuse that we are not big economically or militarily.
On a side note, I am starting to get so fed up with the direction of this country that I am looking to leave it.
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
What is of concern is this is the level of thought expressed by our thought leaders, very narrow and not strategic at all. Nothing on the risk we are seeing in the Pacific or Antarctica. This is the sort of thinking that will come out and say the biggest threat to our country is white supremacists.
There are very limited voices who wish to discuss or raise in public what could go wrong close to home due to the way China is acting and what we as a country need to prepare for if it does. Just rolling out the excuse that we are not big economically or militarily.
On a side note, I am starting to get so fed up with the direction of this country that I am looking to leave it.
If you are looking for better pay and conditions, become a polly and change it :cool:
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
From The Conversation dated 27 Oct by Alexander Gillespie Professor of Law, University of Waikato:

"Since Jacinda Ardern described the state of world affairs as “bloody messy” earlier this year there have been few, if any, signs of improvement. ..."


Prof Gillespie within says, "...where has New Zealand done well on the international stage, and where might it need to find a louder voice or more constructive proposals?":
1. Russia. He assesses that we have done some good with sanctions, support of the Ukrainian military, and using the International Court of Justice.
2. China & Human Rights. Noting that the UN system is controlled by the perpetrators he suggests that we should join the UN HR Council to continue agitation of the stalled process.
3. Nuclear Disarmament. He makes the observation that declaring something is evil and should be band is not the same as actually doing something constructive.

In summary, I found the article to be overly optimistic, hopelessly nationalistic about what NZ can achieve solo, and despite references to the strategic situation being urgent he does not seem to comprehend the 'alone & unafraid' situation that we have sleep-walked into.

For a Kiwi academic I am surprised that there is also zero comprehension about the role of a balance Defence capability supporting NZ national security.
He is a law academic and looking at it from a legal POV. most, but not all, NZ academics who work in the security and defence arena do have a basic understanding of the defence narrative. However some are of the persuasion of Helen Clark et al., and see Defence per se., as an evil institution to be deleted from society. They even support the Green Party defence policy which is bend over and kiss your a#se goodbye. But that's academia where discussions and debates are to had and people have differing opinions and views.

The discussion and debating is one of the more important ways of how we learn, and in academia more so. Whilst to outsiders it may seem a waste of time, actually it is very important and fundamental to both our society and how we defend ourselves, prepare to fight, and fight wars. It gives us the theory upon which we build and operate our defence forces; legally, morally, and physically.
 

Gooey

Well-Known Member
Yes, Prof Gillespie is a Legal chap. I’d say that it’s debatable though if this is the intended scope of his article; also, Stuff etc have used him previously for mainstream analysis: in this case he writes generically ‘Ukraine, China, nuclear proliferation and the lasting impacts of a global pandemic all present urgent, unresolved challenges.’

From his stated aims and output I’d continue to suggest this artical is a threadbare and unbalanced assessment. Not the least, because:

1. If Nuclear disarmament is the centrepiece of our Foreign Affairs, how successful has it been since 1985 and is it likely to be any better in the future? To be glib, just how many weapons have we dismantled as opposed to Uncle Ronnie and Gorbo, for example? Note that after Australian and US warnings, NZ was removed from our previously requested security arrangements (ANZUS) in pursuit of this disarmament. The successful election of PM Lange was fought on a stated duel goal to remain inside the Allied fold as well as contribute to kumbaya.

2. If a recent European war and the rise of the CCP is now a factor for NZ, does this change our previous priorities and sunny disposition; and,

3. If the UN and ‘the rule of law’ is failing, or rapidly accelerating towards outright inconsequence, how does this change our national assumptions of world order and alliances and threat matrix?

Obviously, I have no disagreement with the vital role of deep thought and debate. There is also a plethora of world wide knowledge on how NZ, a small Western liberal democracy, should build and operate Defence. All that the Kiwi academia, citizens, politicians, and journalists are required to do is not ignore it and to stop believing that we exceptionally know the answer to an illusive 5000 years quest by humanity. Instead, we should join the dots; again. After all, clearly as demonstrated by WWI and WWII we used to understand our national responsibilities.

Possibly not swallowing the activists and politicians snake oil sales about world peace might help too, if this an accurate metaphor for our past 38 years of ‘hope’ and doing absolutely nothing to protect our country as a defence strategy.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
First Principles Review Defence Estate, Investment Priorities and Future Naval Base - November 2022

Govt has "proactively released defence documents" outlining long term planned investment for defence estate (good news no negative changes instead upgrades and new initiatives being planned).

This document focuses mainly on the RNZN (Devonport to be retained/upgraded in the meantime, planning for a new supplementary facility at Whangarei and likely to be a new South island base for the proposed SOPV) and of quick interest to us here it mentions the following in general:

PDF Page 1
4 - noted the following immediate priorities for investment in the Defence Estate:
4.1 continuation of approved infrastructure projects meeting compliance and health and safety requirements (from the Defence Estate Regeneration Programme Plan 2019-2035);
4.2 additional infrastructure for the Future Air Surveillance Maritime Patrol (P-8A) capability at Ohakea in the Ohakea Infrastructure Programme;
4.3 infrastructure supporting the Consolidated Logistics Project at Linton and Burnham (with its planned infrastructure builds of workshops and warehouses);
4.4 horizontal infrastructure replacement (e.g. three waters, roads, electricity and telecommunication utilities) across the Defence Estate;
4.5 off-base Defence housing in support of camps and bases;
4.6 on-base accommodation, messing and dining modernisation;
4.7 infrastructure linked to new capabilities and platforms;
4.8 regional facilities providing for Reserves, Defence Careers and contingent capability in support of local government;
4.9 moving facilities and units from Waiouru to Burnham and Linton to support personnel and family needs, and optimise the Army’s functional distribution of land training between the North and South Islands;
PDF Page 7:
The First Principles Review of the Defence Estate Footprint

15. The Review concludes that the status quo for core army operational activity should be retained for the land domain footprint (Trentham, Papakura, Waiouru, Linton, Burnham, West Melton and Tekapo). The existing footprint, supported by the training areas and regional sites, enables delivery of capabilities for the long term.

16. The Review found only limited operational advantages for significant changes to the Air domain footprint. Ohakea, Whenuapai and Woodbourne will be retained as airbases, although it is acknowledged there may be some benefits from expanding military operations at Christchurch airport. Cabinet has approved a business case for investment at Ohakea [GOV-20-MIN-0031 refers].

17. The Future Naval Base Indicative Business Case (discussed below) considered the investment required to relocate the Devonport Naval Base to Whangārei. It concludes the home of the Navy should remain at Devonport. In addition, the Business Case recommended that consideration should be given to investment in a supplementary maritime facility at Whangārei for activities such as training.

18. The Review also found there was merit in exploring the cost/benefit of the establishment of a permanent Navy presence in the South Island. The facility would assist maritime operations and deployment to Antarctica, and in the Southern Ocean. Work on the capabilities of a Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel is underway and is expected to be considered by Cabinet in 2023/24. Once Cabinet decisions on the Southern Ocean Patrol Vessel are made, consideration could be given to investing in a South Island facility.

19. Given these findings, Cabinet agreement to the conclusion of the First Principles Review of the Defence Estate Footprint is sought. This means that the Defence Force will maintain a substantial presence in its current locations (including the existing training areas) at: Whangaparaoa, Devonport, Papakura, Whenuapai, Waiouru, Linton, Ohakea, Trentham, Woodbourne, Burnham, West Melton and Tekapo. The Defence Force will continue to invest in the Defence Estate in accordance with the Defence Estate Regeneration Portfolio Business Case 2019-2035 [CAB-19-MIN-0171.01 refers] for all locations.
PDF page 7 onwards outlines the "Future Naval Base Indicative Business Case" in some detail. In terms of a supplementary facility at Whangarei Points 26 & 27 also mentions "opportunities include co-location or support for other security partners and/or inter-agency operations in Northland" and "Navy, Army and Air Force could share facilities as an Integrated Defence Force".

Well looks like the Govt does have its eyes wide open to the changing international (and regional) security environment and is looking to enhance the Defence "estate" in a modest but practical sense of laying the initial foundations for the future?
 
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Stuart M

Well-Known Member
The discussion and debating is one of the more important ways of how we learn, and in academia more so. Whilst to outsiders it may seem a waste of time, actually it is very important and fundamental to both our society and how we defend ourselves, prepare to fight, and fight wars. It gives us the theory upon which we build and operate our defence forces; legally, morally, and physically.
You have greater faith in academia than I do. I've worked at a university in NZ, quite some time ago now admittedly, studied briefly at another, and 'debate' wasn't part of the ethos, let alone a learning process.

I think that a better descriptor of 'debate' in NZ academia and policy development, although there is a somewhat shiftable oveton window thats highly dependent on political context, is ideological imposition and co-option.

From my own perspective 'debate' in NZ consists of shouting down of anyone who disagrees with ideology/narrative.

With regard to defence matters If there is to be change it will happen on the basis of politician's sense of personal self preservation and nothing more.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You have greater faith in academia than I do. I've worked at a university in NZ, quite some time ago now admittedly, studied briefly at another, and 'debate' wasn't part of the ethos, let alone a learning process.

I think that a better descriptor of 'debate' in NZ academia and policy development, although there is a somewhat shiftable oveton window thats highly dependent on political context, is ideological imposition and co-option.
I spent probably six or seven equivalent full time years studying at a NZ university, some of in the sciences faculty and some of it in the arts faculty. I was a so called "mature" student and on occasion "mature" was a very inapt descriptor. Generally I found that my views were listened to and treated with respect if they had merit, although some of the more fanatical PC operators weren't impressed when I didn't back down to their demands. But I was a military veteran and I have been insulted, abused, and yelled at by world renown experts during my 12 years of service, so some PC operative in an university wasn't going to make me fill my daks. Also I was married and she who must be obeyed wasn't to be ignored, if one wanted one's tea on the plate on the table, instead of flying through the air to meet one at high speed in the face when one fell through the door.
From my own perspective 'debate' in NZ consists of shouting down of anyone who disagrees with ideology/narrative.
I do agree that there is a large amount of ideological bent towards the left in NZ academic discourse, however that doesn't make the discourse any less valuable. There's always learnings in such discussions that don't necessarily have an ideological bent. It's like any discussion, you have to critically read / listen / watch and assess it. That's the important skill that many forget, including myself, and it's something that we need to remember. You are correct however about public discussions in NZ and the left tend to take the attitude it's their way or else. That isn't good for a free flow of ideas and democracy, but that isn't a condition just restricted to NZ. It leads to the increased narrative of alt right and far right political groups and that's not good for democracy either. We end up with a divisive electorate and political violence, with the possibility of authoritarianism taking hold, which is not good for our democracy and country.

We'll stop this particular discussion here because it's becoming political.
With regard to defence matters If there is to be change it will happen on the basis of politician's sense of personal self preservation and nothing more.
Well that's been the mantra for the last 30 years but since 24/2/22 that's all changed and I think that they're beginning to realise that we no longer live in a benign strategic environment. I won't be holding my breath though.

The Minister of Defence has announced the following support for Ukraine.
  • Training: Extend New Zealand’s support to the United Kingdom armed forces-led operation to train Ukrainian personnel, with the deployment of one infantry training team numbering up to 66 NZDF personnel from 30 November 2022 to 31 July 2023. At present the NZDF has two infantry training teams totalling 120 personnel training Ukrainian personnel in the UK.
  • Intelligence: Extend the NZDF’s existing intelligence contribution of up to 12 personnel in the UK, as well as New Zealand-based open source intelligence staff, from 30 November 2022 to 30 June 2023. In addition the NZDF will provide two additional support positions to the UK for the same period.
  • Command and administration support: The deployment of up to eight NZDF personnel to Europe from 30 November 2022 to 31 July 2023 to assist deployed NZDF personnel throughout Europe supporting Ukraine’s self-defence efforts.
  • Logistics: Recommence the deployment of four personnel from 30 November 2022 to 30 June 2023 to a logistics hub in Europe to support Ukraine.
  • Liaison: Extend the NZDF’s existing liaison officer contributions in the UK and Europe from 30 November 2022 to 30 June 2023.
  • Global food security support: $1.85 million to the World Food Programme to help address global food insecurity, which has been exacerbated by the crisis in Ukraine.
  • NATO Trust Fund: Additional $1.85 million contribution for non-lethal military equipment and supplies for Ukraine’s self-defence during the northern winter.

It's good to see that we're continuing with the training mission in the UK. I think that we could've contributed t the cost or munitions and arms via the NATO fund. I think the lack of that is a cop out. NZ$1.85 million is going to buy much winter support for Ukraine military. They are being stingy. Same with the World Food Program.
 

Gooey

Well-Known Member

Within this piece on PM Marin’s visit to NZ today is the following:

“Her focus on weaponry sits in contrast to New Zealand’s initial response, where Ardern condemned the invasion but promised only “non-lethal aid”.”

From a RNZ video PM Ardern made some comments on banning nuclear weapons as a good demonstration of NZ achievements. Marin commented that as well as soft power was required real Hard Power, particularly weapons, to aid Ukraine and face Russia. Straight afterwards, I thought our PM couldn’t finish the press conference quick enough.

It really is a sad contrast between 2 similar countries: one that remembers its history and has a balanced foreign policy and military; and, one that does … nothing, but bludge off Australia and the USA.

Compare and contrast.
RNZAF nil air power @ 2500 per & 300 res
FiAF from 2026 64 F-35s @ 3100 per & 30000 res
 
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