NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

in more relevant timely news:

Luxon has taken Chris Penk off defence and given that portfolio to a farmer.
Shadow Cabinet of Christopher Luxon - Wikipedia

Yes I read that. Chris Penk is also a qualified lawyer as well and has worked in the legal profession since he left the RAN. I am not justifying the selection, but there is a reasonably strong defence contingent within the Caucus.

Tim van de Molen is pro defence. He might be a farmer, but he's pro.
Chris Penk, we all know.
Gerry Brownlie’s defence credentials are well known.
Judith Collins mightn't be flavour of the month but she's quite pro defence.
Mark Mitchell is quite pro defence. He grew up on RNZAF bases.

@MrConservative will be able to fill in some more details.

However the policy is what counts and the revised National Party policy won't be decided until after the Xmas New Year summer break. I do note that Chris Luxon has taken the National Security portfolio for himself. It will be interesting to know his definition of National Security.

Finally, you have been on here long enough to know that Wikipedia isn't regarded as a reliable source.

 

[Rob c]

Now we know where this Kiwi née Scot fetish for sheep comes from!
They knew the English sheep were “unused” and the Scots were unwilling to share theirs.
I think we’re getting a bit OT here but it does explain much!

Wash your mouth out. Like any good Scott he was only interested in the money he could make as he had to support two wives at that stage. He had made enough in the end to PAY HIS WAY TO NZ and to buy a farm when he got here . did not get the free trip some of our neighbors got, did he.

 

[ngatimozart]

Now we know where this Kiwi née Scot fetish for sheep comes from!
They knew the English sheep were “unused” and the Scots were unwilling to share theirs.
I think we’re getting a bit OT here but it does explain much!

The Army carry the tradition on at Waiouru, hence the term Waiouru blondes Navy bunting tossers used to be drafted there, to Irirangi the Navy Comms facility. Would've been a shock for them - they'd have to get out of their bunks to go for scran.

 

[Simon Ewing Jarvie]

Yes I read that. Chris Penk is also a qualified lawyer as well and has worked in the legal profession since he left the RAN. I am not justifying the selection, but there is a reasonably strong defence contingent within the Caucus.

Tim van de Molen is pro defence. He might be a farmer, but he's pro.
Chris Penk, we all know.
Gerry Brownlie’s defence credentials are well known.
Judith Collins mightn't be flavour of the month but she's quite pro defence.
Mark Mitchell is quite pro defence. He grew up on RNZAF bases.

@MrConservative will be able to fill in some more details.

However the policy is what counts and the revised National Party policy won't be decided until after the Xmas New Year summer break. I do note that Chris Luxon has taken the National Security portfolio for himself. It will be interesting to know his definition of National Security.

Finally, you have been on here long enough to know that Wikipedia isn't regarded as a reliable source.

Tim Van de Molen is also an Army Reserve Officer (WaiWec Sqn.) who only left on entering parliament in 2017. He is being quite proactive and keen to meet before Xmas standdown of Parliament. Another interesting development is former associate defence spokesman, Joseph Mooney (another former Waikato Mounted Rifles member) getting the new space portfolio which he has a personal interest in. That has obvious national security implications as well.

 

[John Newman]

Wash your mouth out. Like any good Scott he was only interested in the money he could make as he had to support two wives at that stage. He had made enough in the end to PAY HIS WAY TO NZ and to buy a farm when he got here . did not get the free trip some of our neighbors got, did he.

Yes it is true that a lot of us Aussies have ancestors who received a ‘free’ ship ride here to Oz, makes us Aussie Royalty! Haha!

My Irish Great, Great, Grandparents (she in 1850 for arson, he in 1853 for horse stealing) were transported to Van Diemen’s Land for a ‘free holiday’ for a number of years.

But equally a lot paid their way too, the rest of my Scottish (I’m a McDonald on my mother’s side), and the other Irish, English and Welsh ancestors that arrived between 1830 and the 1850s all paid their way.

Interestingly today, we are sending convicted Kiwis back to NZ, about 2000 so far, last I heard!

Cheers,

 

[Stampede]

Yes it is true that a lot of us Aussies have ancestors who received a ‘free’ ship ride here to Oz, makes us Aussie Royalty! Haha!

My Irish Great, Great, Grandparents (she in 1850 for arson, he in 1853 for horse stealing) were transported to Van Diemen’s Land for a ‘free holiday’ for a number of years.

But equally a lot paid their way too, the rest of my Scottish (I’m a McDonald on my mother’s side), and the other Irish, English and Welsh ancestors that arrived between 1830 and the 1850s all paid their way.

Interestingly today, we are sending convicted Kiwis back to NZ, about 2000 so far, last I heard!

Cheers,

Does that make you a

John Mc Newman!!!!


Cheers S

 

[ngatimozart]

Ok now that we've taken the mickey out of both sides of the ditch and the Army, let's get back on topic please.

 

[kiwi in exile]

Yes I read that. Chris Penk is also a qualified lawyer as well and has worked in the legal profession since he left the RAN. I am not justifying the selection, but there is a reasonably strong defence contingent within the Caucus.

Tim van de Molen is pro defence. He might be a farmer, but he's pro.
Chris Penk, we all know.
Gerry Brownlie’s defence credentials are well known.
Judith Collins mightn't be flavour of the month but she's quite pro defence.
Mark Mitchell is quite pro defence. He grew up on RNZAF bases.

@MrConservative will be able to fill in some more details.

However the policy is what counts and the revised National Party policy won't be decided until after the Xmas New Year summer break. I do note that Chris Luxon has taken the National Security portfolio for himself. It will be interesting to know his definition of National Security.

Finally, you have been on here long enough to know that Wikipedia isn't regarded as a reliable source.

The use of wikipedia was pure laziness.
I like what Penk has said on defence in the past - I've shared it prevoisly here, and am sad to see him off the role. Media commentators are saying Luxon as a businessman has made his appointments based on talent and merit rather than politics and heirarchy. Hopefully van der Molen doesn't dissapoint.

Being 'pro' defence doesn't really mean much. Ex Nat Wayne Map could be described as pro defence. Ron Mark before he became MinDef could also. Both have been criticised on this forum.

It will be interesting to see if this National party steers defence in a new direction. I remain skeptical but we will have to wait and see...

 

[Mikeymike]

New Zealand’s defense minister: Industry is still weathering the COVID-19 storm

Looking forward, both the New Zealand and Australian governments are investing in defense relative to the size of our economies. This means that across our two markets there are significant opportunities for industry.

www.defensenews.com

See article from the NZ defence minister.

I particularly noted the comment "Looking forward, both the New Zealand and Australian governments are investing in defense relative to the size of our economies." Not sure I would agree with that statement and not sure the Australian government would either with Australia spending quite a bit more than NZ proportionally.

In my opinion the overall tone indicates there is no change to spend levels coming.

 

[Kiwigov]

Capital scuttlebutt is for a 'tight' Budget for 2022 - in contrast to the Covid-19 Budget last year (no surprise to the economic commentariat) - and as mentioned on this site, Defence capital expenditure forecasts are under the spotlight. Interesting that the only new capex is the Army order for Bushmasters (to replace the much-maligned armoured pinzgauers), which could come in handy in Pacific trouble-spots. Most unlikely are orders for actual missiles, and probably a back-pedalling on the base reconstruction programme

 

[Gooey]

New Zealand's position in South Pacific increasingly under threat, new defence report says | Stuff.co.nz

Stuff is reporting the new Defence Assessment 2021.

Grim reading on the potential for strategic competition in the South Pacific.
Sadly, despite these words there is no 'so what' from NZG about a fighting navy or air force.
Just this meaningless drivel from Minister Henare:

"... The three priorities were people, infrastructure, and the Pacific. Among the “activities” listed under these priorities were lifting a focus on culture and diversity, rebuilding the Defence Force’s readiness after its work guarding managed isolation facilities during the pandemic, prioritising improvements to housing, and assisting Pacific partners.

...

Chief of Defence Air Marshal Kevin Short said it would take “a couple of years” to rebuild the capability of the defence forces, after the pandemic and deployment to guard managed isolation facilities around the country set back its ability to train and prepare. "It will be quite a few years and the clock hasn't started for that regeneration yet. We hope that occurs mid next year, but that's up to the Government and the tasking priorities they have for us.”

 

[ngatimozart]

New Zealand's position in South Pacific increasingly under threat, new defence report says | Stuff.co.nz

Stuff is reporting the new Defence Assessment 2021.

Grim reading on the potential for strategic competition in the South Pacific.
Sadly, despite these words there is no 'so what' from NZG about a fighting navy or air force.
Just this meaningless drivel from Minister Henare:

"... The three priorities were people, infrastructure, and the Pacific. Among the “activities” listed under these priorities were lifting a focus on culture and diversity, rebuilding the Defence Force’s readiness after its work guarding managed isolation facilities during the pandemic, prioritising improvements to housing, and assisting Pacific partners.

...

Chief of Defence Air Marshal Kevin Short said it would take “a couple of years” to rebuild the capability of the defence forces, after the pandemic and deployment to guard managed isolation facilities around the country set back its ability to train and prepare. "It will be quite a few years and the clock hasn't started for that regeneration yet. We hope that occurs mid next year, but that's up to the Government and the tasking priorities they have for us.”

I haven't read the MOD document fully, but I have read the Minister of Defence’s statement. I get the impression that he may not have fully understood the MOD document, nor the threats facing NZ and the region. The guidance that he has given doesn't in the slightest address the problem that we are facing. It is feel good rubbish, except for the infrastructure requirements which should have happened a decade or two ago. Is the problem with the Minister? His political advisers? Or a combination of both?

 

[Stuart M]

New Zealand's position in South Pacific increasingly under threat, new defence report says | Stuff.co.nz

Stuff is reporting the new Defence Assessment 2021.

Grim reading on the potential for strategic competition in the South Pacific.
Sadly, despite these words there is no 'so what' from NZG about a fighting navy or air force.
Just this meaningless drivel from Minister Henare:

"... The three priorities were people, infrastructure, and the Pacific. Among the “activities” listed under these priorities were lifting a focus on culture and diversity, rebuilding the Defence Force’s readiness after its work guarding managed isolation facilities during the pandemic, prioritising improvements to housing, and assisting Pacific partners.

...

So DefMin and NZGov have, like Denithor, Steward of Gondor, forseen doom and chosen to do nothing.

 

[Todjaeger]

So DefMin and NZGov have, like Denithor, Steward of Gondor, forseen doom and chosen to do nothing.

IIRC Denethor grabbed the Palantir of Minas Tirath and threw himself onto a lit funeral pyre. If the current Beehive occupants were to do something similar, then others could afterwards sweep up the mess and then get back to work righting things... Just a thought.

 

[Rob c]

Here is another take on the report from MSN news with a link to the report it self.

Defence assessment: Intensifying strategic competition leading to risk of conflict in Indo-Pacific

I hope there is some unease in government circles, though I don't expect any great moves from any of the current political parties in government. They will just do the I see no evil, speak no evil hear no evil act and hope it all goes away.

https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/publication/file/Defence-Assessment-2021.pdf

.
There will be words to soothe the public, like , there is no direct threat to NZ or we fully support the maintenance of world order,(even though it is gradually disintegrating), anything to not have to spend on defence until it is too late.

 

[Gracie1234]

I will take a positive view of this paper. In short it is saying the way we have viewed and managed defence for the last few decades needs to change. NZ responding to threats is no longer optional, we will not get to choose anymore as the threats are in our backyard. It was good to see who our likely partners are including Indonesia.
We will not receive advanced notice before certain events such as a foreign military base is built or other grey zone activities will occur that will threaten our security. It was good to see red lines drawn in the sand that will be classed as significant threats. I wonder what our response will be? It is a good signal to other countries on what our line in the sand is. What is not acceptable.
As a country, we can expect to need more maritime awareness and presence capabilities and these will need to be at a higher capability level than what we currently have. I would presume increased numbers of patrol vessels and frigates directed by AI fed from air and space surveillance.
We need to invest in capabilities to compete in the grey zone Cyber and Space are weaknesses that will be the first 'attacks' against our country Cyber attacks that are state-led have already occurred.
It was also clear that we need to support others in order to build the credibility and capability to support our ability to respond in our own backyard. Was it just me or did the five eyes grouping just get rephrased as a defence group not just intelligence?
From here i expect we will see a strategy and capabilities assessment that will outline how we will respond and what capabilities do we need to deliver this response.
While these are being worked on the Minister will focus on building infrastructure, replacing the people that have left and improving culture.

 

[Kiwigov]

Certainly it's a welcome (and long overdue) move from the 'benign strategic environment' of the early 2000s, or the almost naive China-boosterism up to 2017. What's needed is a proactive strategy to forestall aggressive moves by the Dragon Empire - ie put our bases there first. NZ used to have the Lauthala Bay RNZAF base - make an objective to invest (with Aust, of course) in a joint air/naval station in vulnerable Pacific state(s). Though I understand Aust has more of a focus on PNG, given proximity and history

 

[Gibbo]

Here is another take on the report from MSN news with a link to the report it self.

Defence assessment: Intensifying strategic competition leading to risk of conflict in Indo-Pacific

I hope there is some unease in government circles, though I don't expect any great moves from any of the current political parties in government. They will just do the I see no evil, speak no evil hear no evil act and hope it all goes away.

https://www.defence.govt.nz/assets/publication/file/Defence-Assessment-2021.pdf

.
There will be words to soothe the public, like , there is no direct threat to NZ or we fully support the maintenance of world order,(even though it is gradually disintegrating), anything to not have to spend on defence until it is too late.

Absolutely... I'm sorry but we can wax lyrical all we like about how pro-defence various members of Luxon's team might be...and to be fair that is a good thing, but the NZDF didn't get into it's current state in just the last 4 years... it's taken a concerted 30 year effort by both major parties to strip the NZDF of it's capability, purpose & pride! One has preferred to dance around the maypole and talk in tongues, the other has had to change their nappies everytime they were asked to spend money! Haven't heard anything yet to suggest either has changed!

Anyhow on a positive note there are some good statements in the assessment...I particularly like the assertion, that Gracie1234 has pointed out, that the way we have viewed and managed defence for the last few decades needs to change. Also it talks of the need for more awareness & specialist capability to do so in the Pacific... that's a reference to the EMAC project that is quite achievable but I dare say on the backburner.

And NgatiM... you get the impression that the minister may not have fully understood the MOD document, nor the threats facing NZ and the region.... I plainly get the impression he hasn't even opened it!

 

[Kiwigov]

"The Morrison government will scrap its entire fleet of 47 Taipan army and navy helicopters, replacing them with US Blackhawks and Seahawks at a cost of $7bn". (from 'The Australian', 10 December)

Must be an opportunity here for NZ to (once again!) pick up some surplus Aust aviation assets, like the RAN Skyhawks and Seasprites in decades past. I assume the RAN NH-90s have folding blades and would be compatible with the RNZAF fleet?

 

[Shanesworld]

"The Morrison government will scrap its entire fleet of 47 Taipan army and navy helicopters, replacing them with US Blackhawks and Seahawks at a cost of $7bn". (from 'The Australian', 10 December)

Must be an opportunity here for NZ to (once again!) pick up some surplus Aust aviation assets, like the RAN Skyhawks and Seasprites in decades past. I assume the RAN NH-90s have folding blades and would be compatible with the RNZAF fleet?

This is not totally unexpected but still amazing news all in one. Any chance this is media misreporting? How reliable is the australian on this kind of news?