NZDF General discussion thread

[ngatimozart]

OIH,What the bloody hell are you on about Cobber, JHC, you Kiwi's are soft !!

But in all seriousness agree, and if something like that was done, I think NZ taking the Pacific Island lead would be good for NZ as a leadership role in the region.

But also a good way politically to lets say involve themselves into the "Indo-Pacific" question in a bit more of a subtle way that is more palatable domestically.

What opportunities do you see for NZ from an asset and force structure POV if something like this did come to fruition ? Pacific Support, HADR, NGO support etc ?

Cheers

I actually believe it has to be an ANZAC undertaking if it went ahead because both nations will be intimately involved in whatever happens within Polynesia and Melanesia. It will be everything right across the board from EEZ monitoring, HADR, through to armed conflict. Having such a Regiment being able to seamlessly integrate with both the ADF and the NZDF has to be the optimal solution.

Trained up right and well resourced, that Regiment wouldn't be one that I particularly would want to face on the battlefield. Just look at the Samoans, Fijians, and Tongans on the Rugby Union and League paddocks. Or the PNG League team. You certainly know that you've played a League game after playing them. Look what Jonah Lomu did to the Pommy Union team at the 1995 Rugby World Cup in South Africa. They still have nightmares about the 2m, 120 kg, 2 legged Tiger tank on the wing in the No 11 jersy, stomping all over them literally holding the ball in one mitt and swatting them aside with the other. I think he may have been 19 or 20 then and probably would've given Usain Bolt a run for his money.

On another development, which is actually very concerning, with the Kiribati government deciding to ditch the Phoenix Island Protected Area which covers approximately 400,000 km^2. This will open the area up to fishing and the belief is that the PRC is behind the move. Recently the current Kiribati government changed it's diplomatic recognition from Taiwan to the PRC and was rewarded with the promise of a $66 million grant by the PRC. The Kiribati government argues the it will garner $200 million per year in tuna fishing licenses, however the long term prospects would be very poor because the reserve is a nursery and recovery area for the fish stocks. The Kiribati government has also pulled out of the Pacific Islands Forum.

It is thought that there are two consequences to this. The fish sustainability one has been mentioned, but the other is a geostrategic and security one. The PRC has spent $6 million on upgrading the former US military airfield at Kanton Island inside the PIPA Reserve. This is notable for two reasons in that the PIPA Reserve borders US territory, and Kanton sits astride the main trade routes across the Pacific. It also allows the PLAAF, PLAN & PLANAF to project force into the South West Pacific if the PLA was to establish a base on Kanton Island.

This deployment will be cause of concern in Washington, Canberra, and Wellington. It may just be the fright that Wellington needs.

Fears over China’s involvement in Kiribati’s ditching of marine reserve

1News has obtained documents which show cabinet made the decision and then informed PIPA international partners.

www.1news.co.nz

 

[Gryphinator]

It is unclear why we would need this in the ADF.

What would the justification be?

Regards,

Massive

I didn't say part of the ADF at all-but aligned with, or part trained by, sure. Justification? as per the discussion, actively engaging with Pacific nations and keeping them within a sphere of influence. As I said jointly funded with a HADR focus it would score points on both sides of the ditch. Add capabilities organically as the situation dictates.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

Has any one got the full access to this article?

NZDF lost 1700 magazines for its automatic assault rifles, has no idea where they went

 

[ngatimozart]

Has any one got the full access to this article?

NZDF lost 1700 magazines for its automatic assault rifles, has no idea where they went

There was inadequate control of the issue and return of magazines by 1 NZ Brigade with only two people responsible for it, a Sgt and an officer. The logistics chain was severely under resourced, and spread across multiple organisations with no clear lines of communication, according to the subsequent Court of Inquiry. None of the magazines had NZDF markings and cannot be traced back to NZDF. It sounds like a right CF.

 

[Gooey]

Ha… Baggies would never still things, surely?

Pacific Regiment would be very useful additional infantry battalions. The C2 mind could be interesting with something like a PNG or Bougainville situation.
Of interest, the civil aid type crap roles would flow from being professional soldiers.
Also, It may be a stretch for RNZIR to cover this training role IMHO

 

[Gooey]

Sorry… steal things …

 

[spoz]

So how many of those rifles would legally be in private hands in NZ? None? Presuming the mag only fits that rifle and not commercially available weapons then, ipso facto, if one is found it belongs to the NZDF and the person who has it is in the chain of those nicking them, if nicked they were. Of course, they may have been smuggled offshore but there doesn't seem a lot of point. OTOH, they might just have been lost, dropped in the bush or whatever - that has happened in the past in various armed forces (seems a large number for that to be the reason, though).

And, have they lost rifles as well?

 

[ngatimozart]

So how many of those rifles would legally be in private hands in NZ? None? Presuming the mag only fits that rifle and not commercially available weapons then, ipso facto, if one is found it belongs to the NZDF and the person who has it is in the chain of those nicking them, if nicked they were. Of course, they may have been smuggled offshore but there doesn't seem a lot of point. OTOH, they might just have been lost, dropped in the bush or whatever - that has happened in the past in various armed forces (seems a large number for that to be the reason, though).

And, have they lost rifles as well?

No the article didn't mention anything about lost rifles. Doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.

 

[ngatimozart]

Ha… Baggies would never still things, surely?

Especially Kiwi baggie. They're as pure and innocent as the driven snow it's the Cpls and leading hands who are cunning and versed in the art of acquisition without the requirement of the necessary paperwork. They're real dodgy, but the SNCOs / Senior Rates are far dodgier and evilier.

Pacific Regiment would be very useful additional infantry battalions. The C2 mind could be interesting with something like a PNG or Bougainville situation.
Of interest, the civil aid type crap roles would flow from being professional soldiers.
Also, It may be a stretch for RNZIR to cover this training role IMHO

I don't think that it would be a stretch for 1RNZIR to cover the training role because they are SME, but I think the NZ contingent should be an overall Army responsibility rather than just a purely infantry approach. For the Pacific Regiment to work it has to have good logistics, medical, intelligence, engineering etc., structures as well. They don't have to be full blown Corps in their own right and may well be embedded within the NZDF and ADF, but they will still have the framework and corporate knowledge.

 

[Shanesworld]

And, have they lost rifles as well?

Mags get lost alot during assaults. Alot of the bush you cant see more than 5-10 metres ahead. Assaults can be hundreds of metres depending on the scenario. Break contact drills can be even messier if theres a withdrawal aswell.

Rifles have been lost but very rare and exceptional circumstances. The consequences make suicide look a serious options

 

[ngatimozart]

Rifles have been lost but very rare and exceptional circumstances. The consequences make suicide look a serious options

I wouldn't necessarily use the term suicide because there's far too many good service people and veterans succumbing to that.

Yes losing your rifle is / was very serious. In my day a long spell in Ardmore cutting grass with scissors, cleaning areas with a toothbrush, doing everything at the double, digging holes and then told after you were finished that they didn't look right or were in the wrong place and have to be moved, was looming large in your future. Not a nice place to be, which I managed to avoid, sometimes by the skin of my teeth. On top of that if said rifle wasn't found, they made you pay for it too which on the pay rates back then was an expensive proposition. If you were married, her indoors was going to be very ropeable because you were on half pay whilst in Ardmore. You might be safer in there.

 

[Nighthawk.NZ]

There was inadequate control of the issue and return of magazines by 1 NZ Brigade with only two people responsible for it, a Sgt and an officer. The logistics chain was severely under resourced, and spread across multiple organisations with no clear lines of communication, according to the subsequent Court of Inquiry. None of the magazines had NZDF markings and cannot be traced back to NZDF. It sounds like a right CF.

Sounds like a complete shambles... as you say "a right CF"

 

[ASSAIL]

If a Pacific Regiment was ever raised it would be better having the NZDF as the lead partner rather than the ADF, purely for political and cultural reasons. NZ has a greater cultural affinity and understanding of the Pacific Islands and a less rambunctious relationship with them than Australia.

I agree however NZ does not have either a cultural or an historic association with PNG, by far the largest single entity (6+mill people) in the Pacific.
Maybe the answer lies in 2 parts, NZ funding and supporting the “Polynesian” Pacific Regiment and Australia increasing efforts in supporting the PNGDF and doing something with Vanuatu, I’m not sure what? haven’t thought it through, any suggestions?

 

[Gryphinator]

I agree however NZ does not have either a cultural or an historic association with PNG, by far the largest single entity (6+mill people) in the Pacific.
Maybe the answer lies in 2 parts, NZ funding and supporting the “Polynesian” Pacific Regiment and Australia increasing efforts in supporting the PNGDF and doing something with Vanuatu, I’m not sure what? haven’t thought it through, any suggestions?

There's a couple of LHD's that could do with a few hundred guys who can do some door kicking and house building in the off season...

 

[Shanesworld]

There's a couple of LHD's that could do with a few hundred guys who can do some door kicking and house building in the off season...

Conversation over a few beers revealed one of the battalions lost a hundred guys resigned in a month. Unsure if it was 1st or 2/1st but thats crippling. Nz cannot lead this.
Until we can sort our own house i dont think we could or should entertain anything

 

[ngatimozart]

I agree however NZ does not have either a cultural or an historic association with PNG, by far the largest single entity (6+mill people) in the Pacific.

Actually we do have an association with the PNG. We have trained their military and we were involved in Bougainville Civil War Truce and subsequent peace negotiations. In fact the Accord was negotiated and signed at Burnham Military Camp about 30 minutes down the road from my home.

Yes we do have the cultural wherewithal and capability to deal with PNG, more so than Australia. It's how NZDF approaches the PNGDF, or other South Pacific militaries and local populations, that makes the difference.

Maybe the answer lies in 2 parts, NZ funding and supporting the “Polynesian” Pacific Regiment and Australia increasing efforts in supporting the PNGDF and doing something with Vanuatu, I’m not sure what? haven’t thought it through, any suggestions?

It definitely is a concept that has to be unpacked and thought through.

 

[jeffb]

It might not be comfortable for some to hear but why would Australia trust the NZ Government with a significant piece of international engagement such as a "Pacific Regiment"?

If the ADF went down this path it would either be internal to the Aus Army or an independent formation led by people from the wider Pacific, New Zealand does not hold exclusive rights to speak on behalf of the Pacific and there's no need or desire for NZ to speak for Australia.

It's a nice idea to re-engage the NZ public but the reality on the ground at the moment is very different.

 

[recce.k1]

Conversation over a few beers revealed one of the battalions lost a hundred guys resigned in a month. Unsure if it was 1st or 2/1st but thats crippling. Nz cannot lead this.
Until we can sort our own house i dont think we could or should entertain anything

What are the reasons? Eg not getting enough training/operational opportunities because of covid MIQ tasks?

Ironically is the Army still being funded to build up their personnel numbers?

 

[Hone C]

Another issue of course being if the Pacific Islands themselves would actually welcome said engagement or if they would see it as interference.

I suspect the current NZ government is very sensitive to claims of neo-colonialism, and this will stymie any NZ -Aus initiative until there is a request from the Pacific Forum, etc. Even then there may not be the political will, aside from the not insignificant matter of resources.

NZ has responsibility for the defence of the realm territory of Tokelau, the Cook Islands and Niue. How much of a footprint does the NZDF have here?

 

[recce.k1]

Even then there may not be the political will, aside from the not insignificant matter of resources.

These are the probably the most important aspects.

In terms of resources funding would barely be available (i.e. how much of a priority would it be to the P.I. governments?), meaning Aust and NZ would probably have to be the major funders (which could come from Aid budgets perhaps), possibly with US backing (and possibly with contributions from the likes of the EU or Japan etc).

Political will might be an issue but on a slightly different path, EEZ sea patrolling is an important priority for P.I. nations, so could there be opportunities to leverage this (base some personnel on patrol boats as their established boarding parties etc)? Might just get (PI) political interest that's all, and as a start of course to better things.