NZDF General discussion thread

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
In theory that would be ideal, however currently electricity generation capability could be problematic because NZ is close to peak generation capacity. There isn't enough alternate generation capacity to keep up with demand, and any further hydro generation capability projects will be heavily opposed by environmental groups. The idiotic move to stop future gas exploration before alternative viable generation capability is online has resulted in the Huntly coal fired power station being used far more frequently and NZ having to import Indonesian coal.

Yes and no. Wellington is a weak link in the interisland logistics chain. The disruptions to the Cook Strait sailings have increased over time because of weather. The ferries are now limited to a maximum of 6m seas, which are occurring more often.

Secondly, the Wellington port facilities are subject to considerable risk from a reasonably large seismic event, which could render the port inoperable. The 2016 Kaikoura earthquake rendered the container terminal inoperable for a significant period of time. It also caused moderate damage to the Cook Strait ferry terminals. A repeat of the 1855 earthquake would decimate the port and has the potential to make it permanently unusable. The 1855 quake caused 6m of uplift. Prior to that the Miramar Peninsula was an island and the harbour's edge water lapped around the bottom of Parliament and along Lambton Quay.

Thirdly, the 2016 Kaikoura earthquake has shown the fragility of the logistics chain between the lower North Island and Christchurch. It took approximately two years to have the Main Trunk Line and State Highway 1 between Blenheim and Christchurch fully repaired and returned to full service.

Fourthly, the main trunk line between Auckland and Wellington runs across the Volcanic Plateau past three active volcanoes and one super volcano. A good sized eruption from any of the three volcanoes has the potential to close down the line for a while. A lahar caused the Tangiwai Bridge Disaster that Xmas during the 1950s. When Lake Taupo goes bang, that's the middle of the North Island stuffed.

So I believe that these are some of the reasons to seriously consider coastal shipping.
The rail facilities in Lyttleton and Wellington will be significantly upgraded by the time the new ferries come.

Additional power generation is already in existence, once Tiwai Point is shut down in 2024 the Manapouri power station will be able to send it's power North, at the moment it's constrained by the transmission lines in the lower South Island. The Clutha Upper Waitaki Lines Project (CULWP) is under construction as of September 2021 to relieve this constraint, allowing an extra 400 megawatts to be sent north.

The next big project which will guarantee our energy demands for the future is the Lake Onslow pumped storage scheme, It would, in effect, turn the South Island rock basin into a massive 5000 gigawatt rechargeable battery to power the country during periods of little rainfall or wind, ending its dependence on gas and coal generation.

When Lake Taupo pops we will have more to worry about than shipping goods around NZ.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Once the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter is closed that will free up a lot of electricity capacity, we do not have a way to get this electricity to where it is needed. It would be an opportunity to build a hydrogen fuel plant there which we can use to run the heavy transport fleet.
We have a huge ability to develop our renewable electricity, there will need to be some direct conversations with the environmentalists, but we have to do something. The new Telsa battery is impressive and solid-state batteries will be here soon.
The interesting challenge for NZ is a lot of countries will need to decarbonise by going or increasing their nuclear power capacity.
Yes we do, The Clutha Upper Waitaki Lines Project (CULWP) is under construction as of September 2021 to relieve this constraint, this will allow an extra 400 megawatts to be sent north.

The next big project which will guarantee our energy demands for the future is the Lake Onslow pumped storage scheme, It would, in effect, turn the South Island rock basin into a massive 5000 gigawatt rechargeable battery to power the country during periods of little rainfall or wind, ending its dependence on gas and coal generation.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Yes we do, The Clutha Upper Waitaki Lines Project (CULWP) is under construction as of September 2021 to relieve this constraint, this will allow an extra 400 megawatts to be sent north.

The next big project which will guarantee our energy demands for the future is the Lake Onslow pumped storage scheme, It would, in effect, turn the South Island rock basin into a massive 5000 gigawatt rechargeable battery to power the country during periods of little rainfall or wind, ending its dependence on gas and coal generation.
The Onslow project is of particular interest for me...the other half is from Millers Flat, down in the valley adjacent to the Lake... had many a trout fishing and/or boating trip up to Lake Onslow. I've known it to be 29 degrees (celsius) in the valley & a miserly 5 degrees (not allowing for wind chill either) at the lake!

One thing that I haven't seen in any detail about this project though is presumably they will send the water down to Roxburgh hydro for generation, being by far the closest existing generation plant...however it's an old dam & plant and Lake Roxburgh is AFAIK known to be heavily silted to the point it has far less capacity than it did 30 years ago... so presumably there's going to need to be a huge $$$Bn investment in the Roxburgh Hydro station & Lake.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The rail facilities in Lyttleton and Wellington will be significantly upgraded by the time the new ferries come.

Additional power generation is already in existence, once Tiwai Point is shut down in 2024 the Manapouri power station will be able to send it's power North, at the moment it's constrained by the transmission lines in the lower South Island. The Clutha Upper Waitaki Lines Project (CULWP) is under construction as of September 2021 to relieve this constraint, allowing an extra 400 megawatts to be sent north.

The next big project which will guarantee our energy demands for the future is the Lake Onslow pumped storage scheme, It would, in effect, turn the South Island rock basin into a massive 5000 gigawatt rechargeable battery to power the country during periods of little rainfall or wind, ending its dependence on gas and coal generation.

When Lake Taupo pops we will have more to worry about than shipping goods around NZ.
The ferries don't go to Lyttelton and haven't done so since the early 1970s.

Pray tell how is the generation capacity of the Manapouri Scheme going to be sent north. It's not even connected to the national grid and in order for it to be, new transmission lines have to be installed between West Arm and the nearest point to the high voltage entrance to the national grid which would either be at Clyde or Roxburgh.

The pumped hydro at Lake Onslow is a pollies wet dream at the moment. The jury is out on the feasibility and efficiency of it. As to the claims about it turning into a large battery that will only work for so long because the Clutha River is a glacial fed river, like most of the large rivers in the South Island, and the glaciers in the South Island are gradually disappearing. 10 years ago there were 3200 odd ice glaciers and one rock glacier. Now I would strongly suspect that a few of the ice glaciers have become rock glaciers.

The South Island cryosphere accounts for a significant amount of the island's water storage capacity. Once that is gone, no spring thaw and our big east coast will become creeks except in significant rain events. So your pumped hydro is going to be a fizzler because you won't even be able to replace the water lost to evaporation. And that recharge capability is a very important point not just for this particular case but also for all of the acquifers across the island.

The precipitation will change and not for the better. The climate will become more dynamic and volatile meaning more winds and storms, higher temperatures, and less mean annual precipitation. And the precipitation won't happen as often, but when it does it will be in storms and heavy. The high incidences of wind and higher mean annual air temperature means that evaporation will increase, and that's higher water loss from water storage.

I am looking at the long term and I know some of the science WRT to the South Island climate and cryosphere. It is a particular interest of mine.

The Onslow project is of particular interest for me...the other half is from Millers Flat, down in the valley adjacent to the Lake... had many a trout fishing and/or boating trip up to Lake Onslow. I've known it to be 29 degrees (celsius) in the valley & a miserly 5 degrees (not allowing for wind chill either) at the lake!

One thing that I haven't seen in any detail about this project though is presumably they will send the water down to Roxburgh hydro for generation, being by far the closest existing generation plant...however it's an old dam & plant and Lake Roxburgh is AFAIK known to be heavily silted to the point it has far less capacity than it did 30 years ago... so presumably there's going to need to be a huge $$$Bn investment in the Roxburgh Hydro station & Lake.
Used to be a good pub at Millers Flat. That and the Raes Junction pub could mean a wobbly trip home.

The silting of the Roxburgh dam is an issue, I would suggest. The Clutha is the fastest flowing, most dangerous, and deadliest river in NZ. Right from when we were kids dad told us that if we ended up in there we would die, and we came from Eastern Southland, but we used to go up that way quite often. Because of its high flow rate, it would have a high sediment load capacity. Don't forget that it drains two lakes, Wakatipu via the Kawerau River and Wanaka with the confluence of the two rivers at Cromwell where Lake Dunstan is now.

Since the construction of the Clyde dam, theoretically the sediment supply between Clyde and the Roxburgh dam will be signed reduced. They could dredge the sediment from the dam back and that would help. Also don't forget that there is now a reduced water flow from below the Clyde dam because the flow of water through the dam is now controlled. Much like the dams of the Waitaki power scheme, because their water supply is controlled from Lakes Tekapo and Pukaki.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
The Onslow project is of particular interest for me...the other half is from Millers Flat, down in the valley adjacent to the Lake... had many a trout fishing and/or boating trip up to Lake Onslow. I've known it to be 29 degrees (celsius) in the valley & a miserly 5 degrees (not allowing for wind chill either) at the lake!

One thing that I haven't seen in any detail about this project though is presumably they will send the water down to Roxburgh hydro for generation, being by far the closest existing generation plant...however it's an old dam & plant and Lake Roxburgh is AFAIK known to be heavily silted to the point it has far less capacity than it did 30 years ago... so presumably there's going to need to be a huge $$$Bn investment in the Roxburgh Hydro station & Lake.
It will be one of NZ's largest civil engineering projects if undertaken, I think it's actually something we have to do. Theres a good destription of the project here.

 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
The ferries don't go to Lyttelton and haven't done so since the early 1970s.

Pray tell how is the generation capacity of the Manapouri Scheme going to be sent north. It's not even connected to the national grid and in order for it to be, new transmission lines have to be installed between West Arm and the nearest point to the high voltage entrance to the national grid which would either be at Clyde or Roxburgh.

The pumped hydro at Lake Onslow is a pollies wet dream at the moment. The jury is out on the feasibility and efficiency of it. As to the claims about it turning into a large battery that will only work for so long because the Clutha River is a glacial fed river, like most of the large rivers in the South Island, and the glaciers in the South Island are gradually disappearing. 10 years ago there were 3200 odd ice glaciers and one rock glacier. Now I would strongly suspect that a few of the ice glaciers have become rock glaciers.

The South Island cryosphere accounts for a significant amount of the island's water storage capacity. Once that is gone, no spring thaw and our big east coast will become creeks except in significant rain events. So your pumped hydro is going to be a fizzler because you won't even be able to replace the water lost to evaporation. And that recharge capability is a very important point not just for this particular case but also for all of the acquifers across the island.

The precipitation will change and not for the better. The climate will become more dynamic and volatile meaning more winds and storms, higher temperatures, and less mean annual precipitation. And the precipitation won't happen as often, but when it does it will be in storms and heavy. The high incidences of wind and higher mean annual air temperature means that evaporation will increase, and that's higher water loss from water storage.

I am looking at the long term and I know some of the science WRT to the South Island climate and cryosphere. It is a particular interest of mine.


Used to be a good pub at Millers Flat. That and the Raes Junction pub could mean a wobbly trip home.

The silting of the Roxburgh dam is an issue, I would suggest. The Clutha is the fastest flowing, most dangerous, and deadliest river in NZ. Right from when we were kids dad told us that if we ended up in there we would die, and we came from Eastern Southland, but we used to go up that way quite often. Because of its high flow rate, it would have a high sediment load capacity. Don't forget that it drains two lakes, Wakatipu via the Kawerau River and Wanaka with the confluence of the two rivers at Cromwell where Lake Dunstan is now.

Since the construction of the Clyde dam, theoretically the sediment supply between Clyde and the Roxburgh dam will be signed reduced. They could dredge the sediment from the dam back and that would help. Also don't forget that there is now a reduced water flow from below the Clyde dam because the flow of water through the dam is now controlled. Much like the dams of the Waitaki power scheme, because their water supply is controlled from Lakes Tekapo and Pukaki.
I meant Picton, not sure why I wrote Lyttleton. Picton will be significantly upgraded.

Lake Onslow will likely happen, the govt is spending $30m investigating the project. I can't see us building nuclear power stations in NZ, if you believe the seismic and volcanic issues make utilising rail to ship containers around the country a problem then it's a much larger problem locating a suitable location for a nuclear power station. The last time the govt looked Oyster Point on the Kaipara Harbour north of Auckland was established as the best location for a nuclear power plant.

Not sure why people continually believe Manapouri isn't connected to the national grid.

Manapōuri is connected to the rest of the National Grid via two double-circuit 220 kV transmission lines. One line connects Manapōuri to Tiwai Point via North Makarewa substation, north of Invercargill, while the other line connects Manapōuri to Invercargill substation, with one circuit also connecting to North Makarewa substation. Another double-circuit 220 kV line connects Invercargill to Tiwai Point.

If Tiwai Point reduced demand or closed, Manapōuri generation would have to be reduced to prevent overloading the transmission lines out of the lower South Island. The Clutha Upper Waitaki Lines Project (CULWP) is under construction as of September 2021 to relieve this constraint, allowing an extra 400 megawatts to be sent north
What is true is the entire output of the station can't be sent north at the moment, this is being addressed by the Clutha Upper Waitaki Lines Project.
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Article on Stuff with an accidental peace of commentary on the strategic environment. Internal Defence Force briefing warning of 'much worse' strategic environment removed from public website

I have to say I tend to agree with this aspect
“New Zealand’s defence policy approach should shift from a predominantly reactive risk management-centred approach to one based on a more deliberate and proactive strategy, with explicitly prioritised policy objectives.”

He noted the assessment recommends that activities in the Pacific will increasingly require the use of sophisticated military capabilities that have been previously considered more appropriate for operations further afield.
We have been far to remiss about obligations in the Pacific and to a degree ignoring some of the pressures that Pacific nations are facing from nations playing a wider game (i.e. Taiwan, loans or access rights).
 

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
Article on Stuff with an accidental peace of commentary on the strategic environment. Internal Defence Force briefing warning of 'much worse' strategic environment removed from public website

I have to say I tend to agree with this aspect

We have been far to remiss about obligations in the Pacific and to a degree ignoring some of the pressures that Pacific nations are facing from nations playing a wider game (i.e. Taiwan, loans or access rights).
I have said it before will say it again... We need to keep the pressure on and keep asking the right questions, and get the public to start asking questions. Having a journalist helps... and this is a start just to get the general public aware that is not all pretty smelling roses and we need to be doing more. Ask the questions, and then ask what are we (NZ) going to do about it)
 

Rob c

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I have said it before will say it again... We need to keep the pressure on and keep asking the right questions, and get the public to start asking questions. Having a journalist helps... and this is a start just to get the general public aware that is not all pretty smelling roses and we need to be doing more. Ask the questions, and then ask what are we (NZ) going to do about it)
I agree with you and also think that publicity is the key. This publicity must be in terms that the public can easily understand and should focus initially on the deteriorating strategic situation in easily understandable terms. This needs to be quickly followed by what is needed to keep the NZ population safe. It is my belief that deterrence is the foremost option in this regard. Getting to complicated in regard to this could be counter productive.
 

Nighthawk.NZ

Well-Known Member
It also needs to be in layman's terms so people's eyes don't glaze over... (from experience...) that is why all my articles I write are void of all the technical things and straight forward and to the point... if you get to technical people loose interest very quickly.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Looks like the article was pulled from the Army's KEA (Knowledge Enabled Army) website (if one searches for the article title and author's name) ... hopefully the new DefMin didn't intervene again like last time an individual posted their personal thoughts on Army culture?

Anyway (and pushed for time so won't write too much atm), what is wrong with defence planners (MoD etc) and the Govt and their advisors? Have they forgotten that when the Cold War ended and defence expenditure was cut (1990's onwards) that they also were explicit ... they reasoned that defence expenditure would change to meet the strategic environment needs, for example cut expenditure when things were peaceful .... and increase expenditure when the strategic environment required it. Looks like they have forgotten about the latter!

But in other words it shouldn't be as difficult as it has been in recent times, to make the case to increase NZDF funding capabilities.

So talking about increasing expenditure to 2% (or even up to 3%) of GDP should no longer be rejected as being "out of touch".

Somewhere I have some articles written by the likes of Derek Quigley (one of the consultants that govt used to cut defence funding post CW) and ASPI experts explaining all this from a couple of decades ago, will look to locate them etc.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
It also needs to be in layman's terms so people's eyes don't glaze over... (from experience...) that is why all my articles I write are void of all the technical things and straight forward and to the point... if you get to technical people loose interest very quickly.
A good discussion on how the consequences of Xi’s actions will effect citizens day to day lives….no oil or gas, inability to export NZ products or receive imports, massive over fishing, loss of Antarctica territorial region and control of NZ’s economic offshore zones should be a starting point for citizens to consider.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
A good discussion on how the consequences of Xi’s actions will effect citizens day to day lives….no oil or gas, inability to export NZ products or receive imports, massive over fishing, loss of Antarctica territorial region and control of NZ’s economic offshore zones should be a starting point for citizens to consider.
Yes to all this .... but the easiest way to get into basically all NZ'ers psyche (eg of European & Maori and Pasifika descent mainly) is to discuss how an, ahem "external country", brings in for example armed para-military forces into say a Polynesian, or Melanesian or Micronesian Island nation and "essentially takes it over" (the discussion doesn't even need to get into Aust/US territories or realities) .... the mere thought to all those Kiwis of "their own "back-yard" being interfered with", even the woke left would get extremely upset and demand govt action to "reclaim our lands of our Pacific "cousins" (or more like "brothers and sisters" nowadays - I am being serious)!

So the public would not only understand, they would expect that the NZDF have the capabilities to counter this threat possibility (eg air/sea logistics and air/sea combat forces etc).

Even PM Lange demanded the NZDF go into action to reclaim Fiji after their 1987 coups (until the NZDF explained to him that they didn't have the necessary capabilities to achieve this)!

This (as one example) could be NZDF's public, easy-to-understand-role, that it is capable of taking back control of one of "our" neighboring island nations (obviously depending on the threat size - I'm thinking at the smaller scale of things, and in reality other nations such as Australia or France etc could also likely be involved).
 

Gryphinator

Active Member
A pacific regiment. It's been discussed here before and seems to be an easy option for people to get behind. The idea was raised here in Oz a little while ago but could solve a few problems. I'd imagine HADR being a strong focus to appease certain groups...
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
A pacific regiment. It's been discussed here before and seems to be an easy option for people to get behind. The idea was raised here in Oz a little while ago but could solve a few problems. I'd imagine HADR being a strong focus to appease certain groups...
If a Pacific Regiment was ever raised it would be better having the NZDF as the lead partner rather than the ADF, purely for political and cultural reasons. NZ has a greater cultural affinity and understanding of the Pacific Islands and a less rambunctious relationship with them than Australia.
 

At lakes

Well-Known Member
Even PM Lange demanded the NZDF go into action to reclaim Fiji after their 1987 coups (until the NZDF explained to him that they didn't have the necessary capabilities to achieve this)!
PM Lange did demand the NZDF go into action but I think you will find it was not to recover Fiji from the coup but an Air New Zealand B747 after an attempted hi-jacking in Nandi. The CAS of the day said it was a matter for the local authorities which caused a fair amount of tension between the NZDF and the government of the day. In the end the matter was resolved by a mk1 anti hi jacking device, a bottle of Scotch wrapped over the offenders head by he flight engineer.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
PM Lange did demand the NZDF go into action but I think you will find it was not to recover Fiji from the coup but an Air New Zealand B747 after an attempted hi-jacking in Nandi. The CAS of the day said it was a matter for the local authorities which caused a fair amount of tension between the NZDF and the government of the day. In the end the matter was resolved by a mk1 anti hi jacking device, a bottle of Scotch wrapped over the offenders head by he flight engineer.
Wouldn't happen today
No Flight Engineers on Airliners any more:)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
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E kore rātou e kaumātuatia
Pēnei i a tātou kua mahue nei
E kore hoki rātou e ngoikore
Ahakoa pehea i ngā āhuatanga o te wā
I te hekenga atu o te rā
Tae noa ki te aranga mai i te ata
Ka maumahara tonu tātou ki a rātou
Ka maumahara tonu tātou ki a rātou.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun, and in the morning,
We will remember them
We will remember them.

 

aussienscale

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
a less rambunctious relationship with them than Australia.
OIH,What the bloody hell are you on about Cobber, JHC, you Kiwi's are soft !! :p

But in all seriousness agree, and if something like that was done, I think NZ taking the Pacific Island lead would be good for NZ as a leadership role in the region.

But also a good way politically to lets say involve themselves into the "Indo-Pacific" question in a bit more of a subtle way that is more palatable domestically.

What opportunities do you see for NZ from an asset and force structure POV if something like this did come to fruition ? Pacific Support, HADR, NGO support etc ?

Cheers
 
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