NZDF General discussion thread

With the NZ announcement, i find it very interesting considering the timing of the Australian Foreign Minister being in NZ. The way she spoke about it appeared to support NZ fully. She also spoke on creating better engagement with China. It seemed like a lot of the messaging was aimed at China.
Note: My point about North Korea was since NZ is 'nuclear free' and completely 'anti-nuclear' when we speak to another country about removing their nuclear capacity we come from a different position. I did not say we were successful, only that our goal aligned with our friends.
 

oldsig127

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well your efforts have met with about the same amount of success old boy. People who live in glass houses and all that.
I wasn't aware we'd made a particular effort to denuke North Korea. But if we had, and had no visible success, I wouldn't be commending others to do it our "better" way. Standing on a hot air soapbox has a way of letting you down.

oldsig
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
According to the very “woke” NZ Foreign Minister (who went to a private girls school and only had her Ta moko/facial markings 5 years ago)the Taniwha and the Dragon are now “besties” in saving the planet and gendering mutual respect.
This is either naive madness or deliberate appeasement and it’s hardly encouraging for other democratic nations pushing back against China’s ambition.
Michael Shoebridge from ASPI considers that NZ’s current policies are stuck in the 2012 era rather than current and uses that old Joe Bjelke Petersen quote “you can’t sit on the fence and keep your ear to the ground without horrible things happening”.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
According to the very “woke” NZ Foreign Minister (who went to a private girls school and only had her Ta moko/facial markings 5 years ago)the Taniwha and the Dragon are now “besties” in saving the planet and gendering mutual respect.
This is either naive madness or deliberate appeasement and it’s hardly encouraging for other democratic nations pushing back against China’s ambition.
Michael Shoebridge from ASPI considers that NZ’s current policies are stuck in the 2012 era rather than current and uses that old Joe Bjelke Petersen quote “you can’t sit on the fence and keep your ear to the ground without horrible things happening”.
Joh Bjelke Petersen was a Kiwi export and from the North Island farming community of Dannevirke so his observation is quite astute.

Pommy Conservative MPs have had a go at our PM over her attitude towards FVEY and the PRC, and rightly so to. I would dispute your 2012 timeline and I would put her viewpoint closer to 2000 when her mentor Helen Clark famously declared that we lived in a benign strategic environment. I suspect that the princess Jacindarella still believes that.


Meanwhile the Telegraph has called her the West's weak woke link and I would agree that it's fair comment. Some of the princess's loyal followers have taken great umbrage at that, but then they whinge and moan about anything and everything anyway. They believe that she's like JC and can walk on water, capable of doing no wrong. She's never held a proper job in her life, except working part-time at a fush and chup shop for a while.

 

Shanesworld

Active Member
She worked in a comms unit in London for New Labour under Blair. She has a history that I am not going into for reasons of self preservation.
 

Redlands18

Well-Known Member
Meanwhile the Telegraph has called her the West's weak woke link and I would agree that it's fair comment. Some of the princess's loyal followers have taken great umbrage at that, but then they whinge and moan about anything and everything anyway. They believe that she's like JC and can walk on water, capable of doing no wrong. She's never held a proper job in her life, except working part-time at a fush and chup shop for a while.

She could always open up a Fush and Chup shop with Pauline Hanson:)
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
She worked in a comms unit in London for New Labour under Blair. She has a history that I am not going into for reasons of self preservation.
She worked in a comms unit in London for New Labour under Blair. She has a history that I am not going into for reasons of self preservation.
That's not a real job per se, but a political one. Like many modern pollies she's worked in politics her whole adult life so has no clue about how the real world operates. That's where problems arise because the real world doesn't conform with party political theories, so instead of changing the theories to match real world observations, they attempt to change the real world to conform with their theories. As any good scientist will tell you, the universe doesn't work like that.
 

Rob c

Well-Known Member
can we get back to discussing the policy etc and leave
moko
private schools
fish n chips
Joh BP

out of it?
If you want to criticise people for being 'woke' i'm sure there are other forums you can find.
Lets focus on Defence Talk
Some times you got to have a laugh at the antic's of our politicians as they can get to the point of being unbelievable in their outlook of the world they have so that it fits their agenda. As they are unlikely to reform at any stage, only thing left is a little dark humor.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
One thing to ponder is that the current NZ Government, now into its second term is very inexperienced when it comes to Defence, National Security and Diplomacy at the political level. Remember in the last government it was veteran politician Winston Peters in his role as Foreign Minister and Deputy PM was the key minister with respect to external relations, supported by former professional soldier and experienced MP Ron Mark in the defence role. There is no one within the governments political ranks who has any international relations or defence experience of note. Many of the special advisors to support them are youngish social justice warrior hacks, with even less life experience or intellectual grunt. The other obsession is trade access, which harks back to the early 1970's with the double shock of the entry of the UK into the EEC and the simultaneous 1973 Oil Shock.

They are all out of their depth and simply ignorant. Their only world view is from what they have listened to on Radio NZ the woke public service radio station and the NZ Herald and Dominion Post (once serious metropolitan dailies and now tabloid trash) or to get an international flavour the Guardian. The current situation of Covid has placed the Government in a sub-intellectual bubble without any frequent contact to "adults" in other countries for information or guidance. They have no concept of how the world works beyond the nations borders and sadly are arrogant to think that it does not matter with vacuous virtual signalling sufficient engagement. Probably the first "adult" Ms Mahuta has met in her role is Ms Payne just this week. Ms Adern is simply a political celebrity, a political actress, - the Kim Kardashian of international politics who is fawned by and fawns over fellow media celebrities and late night show hosts. Her influence is on them and not on credible leaders.
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
One thing to ponder is that the current NZ Government, now into its second term is very inexperienced when it comes to Defence, National Security and Diplomacy at the political level. Remember in the last government it was veteran politician Winston Peters in his role as Foreign Minister and Deputy PM was the key minister with respect to external relations, supported by former professional soldier and experienced MP Ron Mark in the defence role. There is no one within the governments political ranks who has any international relations or defence experience of note. Many of the special advisors to support them are youngish social justice warrior hacks, with even less life experience or intellectual grunt. The other obsession is trade access, which harks back to the early 1970's with the double shock of the entry of the UK into the EEC and the simultaneous 1973 Oil Shock.

They are all out of their depth and simply ignorant. Their only world view is from what they have listened to on Radio NZ the woke public service radio station and the NZ Herald and Dominion Post (once serious metropolitan dailies and now tabloid trash) or to get an international flavour the Guardian. The current situation of Covid has placed the Government in a sub-intellectual bubble without any frequent contact to "adults" in other countries for information or guidance. They have no concept of how the world works beyond the nations borders and sadly are arrogant to think that it does not matter with vacuous virtual signalling sufficient engagement. Probably the first "adult" Ms Mahuta has met in her role is Ms Payne just this week. Ms Adern is simply a political celebrity, a political actress, - the Kim Kardashian of international politics who is fawned by and fawns over fellow media celebrities and late night show hosts. Her influence is on them and not on credible leaders.
And therein lies the problem. We have a government with a Cabinet that has no knowledge or idea about foreign policy, relations, geopolitics and geostrategy. They don't know or understand the basics, and when it comes to the complicated stuff they are stuffed completely. Furthermore they are blinded by their strict adherence to ideology and they don't understand the fundamental scientific principle that you have to change the theory to fit how the world works; not attempt to force the world to fit the theory. The universe just doesn't work like that.

We also don't know the type of and the quality of advice that they are receiving from MFAT, and that is a problem in itself because MFAT is run by a cabal of trade at all costs adherents, who won't consider the wider implications of their actions. I consider them the NZ Ferengi colony. I believe them to be diehard neoliberal globalists who haven't, or won't accept that the world has changed, and that economic philosophy has passed its use by date.

I get the impression that princess Jacindarella and her mob believe that they are geopolitically and geostrategically still in Uncle Helen's benign geopolitical and geostrategic situation of 2000. The other point is that for a PM and Cabinet that prides itself in its human rights stance and transparency, it is willing to lecture the Aussies, but is notably quiet about the PRC human rights abuses, genocide, and lack of transparency with regard to the WHO COVID-19 investigation. It also refused to publicly condemn the PRC for its unlawful political attack on Australia using trade as the weapon of choice. The attack wasn't about trade, but was an attack on Australia's sovereignty, which for all intents and purposes is an act of war. That's why I believe that the Ardern government is running an anti Australian foreign policy, just like her mentor Helen Clark did for the first five years of her premiership.

I am starting to form the opinion that the Ardern government is becoming a danger to NZ, more so than the Clark lead governments ever were. Mostly because of their inexperience, their inabilities and incompetent talent pool, and their refusal to listen to advisors and experts who give them advice that contradicts their ideologically driven imperatives.

There is also the matter of how much the CCP has penetrated the NZ political, bureaucratic, and social elites through its front the United Front. Both major political parties receive a lot of Chinese political donations funded by the CCP through the United Front using various corporations and individuals. My own view is that the kibosh should be put on this immediately.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The only caveat I would place on Mr C’s and ngati’s posts above is that I assume there is still a professional team of public servants in the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Defence.
One would hope that real world advice, contrary to the politicians utterances, is given without fear or favour or has the NZ Civil Service been captivated by the fairies in the bottom of the garden?
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The only caveat I would place on Mr C’s and ngati’s posts above is that I assume there is still a professional team of public servants in the Departments of Foreign Affairs and Defence.
One would hope that real world advice, contrary to the politicians utterances, is given without fear or favour or has the NZ Civil Service been captivated by the fairies in the bottom of the garden?
Yes there is but this current lot are very hard work for them and the advice seemingly is either only partially accepted nor fully grasped because the ultimate possessors of policy decision making have been elected or selected into positions well beyond their pay grade or intellectual capacity.
 

Gooey

Member
Yes there is but this current lot are very hard work for them and the advice seemingly is either only partially accepted nor fully grasped because the ultimate possessors of policy decision making have been elected or selected into positions well beyond their pay grade or intellectual capacity.
Sadly, from my minor contacts over the past few year in the area of non-kinetics I do not see much NZ civil service and defence professional knowledge. It appears to have little war fighting esprit de corps or mission beyond gender politics and what used to be called peace keeping. I speculate that the death of ACF and 4 FF navy has denuded the NZDF of fighting knowledge. Big army is always hopeless but for a maritime nation the RNZN and RNZAF are effectively coastguards. Again speculation, but I theorize that due to a lack of recent operational equipment, training and experience this has now permeate through out the NZDF chain-of-command and will impact advice to government of the day.

Apologies for being all CPL Jones about this but after 6 months of living in Kiwi and listening to RNZ/TVNZ (yes, oh so Woke it is truly unbelievable) coverage of this weeks Minister Mahute / Payne talks I firmly believe that defence of NZ is in the hands of God and Australia. Which is all well and good for the current shower who run this country, until the ‘crisis’ happens and its the untrained boys (and girls) who will get it in spades; ala Gallipoli, Crete and late 1941/ early 42 Pacific.

Solutions, I can’t see any. Sorry I need my morning whiskey. Happy ANZAC Day weekend!
 
Top