NZDF General discussion thread

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htbrst

Active Member
ngatimozart said:
See the French are looking at a Public Private Lease Purchase system for acquiring 14 KC30 MRTTs. France Eyes Public-Private Lease for Tanker - Defense News Maybe it could an option NZG looks at for medium MP / transport, C130 and P3K2 replacement. I see the RAAF is at present flying leased King Airs in place of Caribous until Caribou replacement is determined.
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If structured appropriately leasing can have its advantages - and given the upcoming spend on the Christchurch earthquake the government might like to avoid the CAPEX cost.

Note that the RNZAF already leases both its own kingair fleet, and also the current crop of Airtrainers, so its not a new concept, but leasing a more 'frontline aircraft ' may require a bit more of a jump in the deep end
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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htbrst said:
If structured appropriately leasing can have its advantages - and given the upcoming spend on the Christchurch earthquake the government might like to avoid the CAPEX cost.

Note that the RNZAF already leases both its own kingair fleet, and also the current crop of Airtrainers, so its not a new concept, but leasing a more 'frontline aircraft ' may require a bit more of a jump in the deep end
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No necessarily. If Airbus go along with French deal then it opens the way for us to look at similar deal for say A400M / C295 combo. Airbus have financial issues and they need the income, so they may be amenable to such a deal if, say a purchase further down the track may be possible. The KC30MRTT is still a "frontline" aircraft as you put it. I would presume the ADF would look at using it for troop swaps in Afghanistan, freeing up the C17s for purely cargo runs.

Remember the F16 deal in the 1990's was a lease deal, so it's not a first for either the NZG or a combat aircraft. NZ's credit downgrade to AA, which has been on the cards for a while, means that more creative funding arrangements have to be looked at. The PPP deal the French are looking at, appears to offer a payment spread, over longer period of time with eventual purchase. Just another idea thrown out to see if it flies or not.
 
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ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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There's an interesting post on the RAAF thread about Airbus pushing the ADF for a competition of the C295 against the C27. Seems Airbus has 6 months of work left (10 aircraft) on the production line before the orders run out. I'm not 100% about purloining the links from another thread so I won't. There are links to 2 news stories about it.
 
K

KiwiRob

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Since when do Airbus have financial issues? They are propped up by the French and German Govts and in the last couple of years have consistantly given Boeing a hiding in the commercial market.
 
ngatimozart

ngatimozart

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KiwiRob said:
Since when do Airbus have financial issues? They are propped up by the French and German Govts and in the last couple of years have consistantly given Boeing a hiding in the commercial market.
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Well they appear to be pushing the AUG & ADF hard for the C295 buy. The French & German Govts got heaps of financial issues dealing with the euro crisis, bailing out the likes of Greece. The financial crisis in Europe is only going to deepen because a lot of the economies are held up by sovereign debt. This is putting more pressure on the euro and the US has it's own difficulties to deal with, which it isn't. The Germans are trying to lessen their exposure to Airbus Military at the moment and the A400M has been a large sinkhole for money.
 
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gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

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KiwiRob said:
Since when do Airbus have financial issues? They are propped up by the French and German Govts and in the last couple of years have consistantly given Boeing a hiding in the commercial market.
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They're just exercising the well worn commercial maxim (apols to Paul Revere)

"the end of this production run is coming, the end of this production run is coming, do something now or miss the bargain"
 
gf0012-aust

gf0012-aust

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ngatimozart said:
Well they appear to be pushing the ADF hard and the French & German Govts got heaps of financial issues dealing with the euro crisis, bailing out the likes of Greece. The Germans are trying to lessen their exposure to Airbus Military at the moment and ten A400M has been a large sinkhole for money.
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I can't see ADO takimg up Airbus/EADS. they're not exactly on everyones christmas card list
 
R

RegR

Well-Known Member
Could be a good time to secure some bargain(ish) Grizzlys for the future, whether it be directly from Airbus military or more likely off the Germans who are already going to on sell 13, teething problems still a concern however if the right price was negotiated the capabilities cannot be ignored and yes along with a CN295 package deal would negate the requirement for C130. Start the planning process now Govt, then maybe I might see them this decade if every other aqquisition timeline is anything to go off.:rel
 
L

lopez

Member
There will be 500 fewer positions by December, rising to 1500 over the next three years.
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woo they are cutting that many jobs?
that is pretty severe !! the NZDF isn't exactly that big. are they still going to be able function after the cull?

9300 -1500 over three years?
 
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MrConservative

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lopez said:
woo they are cutting that many jobs?
that is pretty severe !! the NZDF isn't exactly that big. are they still going to be able function after the cull?

9300 -1500 over three years?
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In a nutshell, what is happening is that the NZDF is shifting around 10% of its salaried permanent personnel (both Civilian and non combatant Regular Force) into Independent Contractor status thus saving millions p.a . The delivery of the NZDF “outputs” will still be around the same size HR wise, however more people will be classified under s6 of the Employment Relations Act 2001 rather than s5 of the Act as it is at present.
 
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Volkodav

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MrConservative said:
In a nutshell, what is happening is that the NZDF is shifting around 10% of its salaried permanent personnel (both Civilian and non combatant Regular Force) into Independent Contractor status thus saving millions p.a . The delivery of the NZDF “outputs” will still be around the same size HR wise, however more people will be classified under s6 of the Employment Relations Act 2001 rather than s5 of the Act as it is at present.
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So by any chance are they targeting individuals injured while on duty, or perhaps requesting a period of stability to see kids or spouse through an educational program?

I think they need to be very careful because nothing destroys moral quicker than seeing mates and comrades shafted. You feel bad for them but in the back of your mind you are thinking that could have been me.
 
MrConservative

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Cadredave

Cadredave

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MrConservative

MrConservative

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Cadredave said:
No Mr C it did confirm alot for us in the NZDF, what we have heard either rumour or other wise is now concrete come Dec 11 Army will transitions for sure, all the bits & pieces we have seen lately are starting to make sense.
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SBNP, DC2S or JATF? I suppose they have been explicitly articulated now which is good.

By the looks of it (first glance) they have stuck with the medium capability pathway as outlined in the 2010 Cabinet Doc's. However they seem to have shifted some acquistitions a tad further along. Endeavour replacement is now 2019 and the LWSV is 2018. The three extra A-109's will be for training only and will be COTS and not bought up to the original 5's specs. We won't see them until 2017-2019.
 
G

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
MrConservative said:
Here is the document for those interested in this subject to look at.

http://www.defence.govt.nz/pdfs/reports-publications/defence-capability-plan-2011.pdf

Nothing in it that we did not already know.
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I actually like it - issues of affordability etc aside! It's seems a well balanced & above all realistic plan to develop a small but competent niche capability consumate with the needs of the region. Also doesn't rule out smaller niche deployments of part thereof to other theatres.

It'll give the public something tangible to talk about - oh yeah forgot, NZ public doesn't care! :mad:

Even better perhaps it sets the expectation for those amongst forums (not just this one!) that tend to draw up dreamy wish-lists of gear that were were clearly never going to get. It's gives us a tangible common ground to move our forum discussions forward on!

Personally - key points I like (other than the obvious excitement over networked capability; satelite technology etc) are (Navy) role for frigates identified & replacement with like intended; potential for a half-decent Navy LWSV; additonal lift / replenishment; (AF) no wholesale dumping of B757 appears forecast (for now!?!); advanced air-training to move forward; and recognition of value of P3 & replacement with like intended. (Army) contuination of small arms; vehicle replacement etc.

Bits I don't like: long wait for 3 x 109; loooong wait for 2nd tranche of NZLAV upgrades; STILL no public mention of providing P3 with weapons upgrade; ASW suite; or self-protection suite (all essential for amphib work in & around the littorals); no longer looking at decent size multi-engine trainer (although am a fan of the B350 per se).

Interesting point noted: C130 & B757 replacement BOTH have to be capable of both tactical & strategic operation. I'd smell a whiff of 'single type'. If I were a betting man I'd put $$$ on 7-8 x C130J-30 & heavy / fat lift via RAAF C-17 or charters!

Another point -Canterbury needs 360 degree surface cover against FIAC before she can accompany ANZACs into 'warmer' areas - hot areas will always be a long shot with her COTS design & base build. Likewise AORS replacement & LWSV need same - mini-typhoon & 25mm mix to cover all angles of attack.
 
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Cadredave

Cadredave

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MrConservative said:
SBNP, DC2S or JATF? I suppose they have been explicitly articulated now which is good.

By the looks of it (first glance) they have stuck with the medium capability pathway as outlined in the 2010 Cabinet Doc's. However they seem to have shifted some acquistitions a tad further along. Endeavour replacement is now 2019 and the LWSV is 2018. The three extra A-109's will be for training only and will be COTS and not bought up to the original 5's specs. We won't see them until 2017-2019.
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Sorry Mr C not for this forum could get in a bit of bother...:nutkick
 
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