NZDF General discussion thread

[RegR]

I have always felt that there is a need for a cheap to own and operate civilian lo-spec helicopter within the RNZAF fleet to undertake the dogsbody unglamorous tasks even with the arrival of the Mako and the 90 fleet. Recce and I mulled it over on this thread a few years ago. Rightly something appropriately rugged that slots in between the 90 and the Mako’s sizewise – a sort of flying hilux ute of NZDF was the idea.

The 212 does look the pick of the bunch and very good examples between 10-15 years old can be picked up on the international market for around $NZ3m an airframe or half a dozen of them for the price of a single Mako LUH. The 212 as a known quantity in NZ skies comes with the added benefit that support can be outsourced to any number of local firms.

There was chatter about using the locally built PAC750 for this rough and ready role about a year or so ago but never really went much further than a couple of manufacturer PR sheets.

With you on the B212 MrC, relatively inexpensive, a relatively known quantity experience wise so would be an easy fit (if tagged on the end of huey retirement) and provides a good sized in-between cabin and capability. Also 3 would fit in the space of a 109, 4 in a 90 so space would not be such a burden hanger wise.

I think the task options it would cater for would outweigh the number of types issue and operating costs would be offset v sending 1 90 or 2 109s on a small to medium job, much like a CN235 would slot between the C130 and B200 hint hint.

 

[ngatimozart]

With you on the B212 MrC, relatively inexpensive, a relatively known quantity experience wise so would be an easy fit (if tagged on the end of huey retirement) and provides a good sized in-between cabin and capability. Also 3 would fit in the space of a 109, 4 in a 90 so space would not be such a burden hanger wise.

I think the task options it would cater for would outweigh the number of types issue and operating costs would be offset v sending 1 90 or 2 109s on a small to medium job, much like a CN235 would slot between the C130 and B200 hint hint.

I was reading the Value for Money report last night - I was bored. One of its recommendations was four DHC Dash 8 Q300 aircraft for the EEZ MPA and twin engine training but having the aircraft on the civil registry not the military one. The logic was that since Air Nelson operate them Air Nelson would own these four aircraft and the RNZAF would operate them but the aircraft would not be on NZDFs books so wouldn't affect the balance sheets apart from operating costs. My issue is why would a civil airline want to own aircraft that are fitted out for MPA and therefore aren't available all the time to fly on revenue generating routes.

Another recommendation is that NZDF keep all the 105 NZLAV and convert those in excess to other uses like ambos etc. Any that aren't converted be preserved for future need. The report said that was most VfM option.

 

[treehuggingaj]

I was reading the Value for Money report last night - I was bored. One of its recommendations was four DHC Dash 8 Q300 aircraft for the EEZ MPA and twin engine training but having the aircraft on the civil registry not the military one. The logic was that since Air Nelson operate them Air Nelson would own these four aircraft and the RNZAF would operate them but the aircraft would not be on NZDFs books so wouldn't affect the balance sheets apart from operating costs. My issue is why would a civil airline want to own aircraft that are fitted out for MPA and therefore aren't available all the time to fly on revenue generating routes.

Another recommendation is that NZDF keep all the 105 NZLAV and convert those in excess to other uses like ambos etc. Any that aren't converted be preserved for future need. The report said that was most VfM option.

Defiantly keep the LAVs. While on armour, why is the PRT cruising around in Hummers? Instead of leasing them, why not get Bushmasters? They can also carry around support staff at the LAV Regiments (can't remember...is it QMR or 2/1 that has LAVs...or both?) like Australia's 1 BDE when back home in NZ.

 

[treehuggingaj]

If I can go back to choppers and ships (forgive me for back tracking), I mentioned a few posts back that with an offensive helo and a CIWS and/or other countermeasures, the OPV's could step up a level from an armed customs vessel to an ok ASW vessel. General consensus was that the ship itself didn't have the systems to support the helo. Which is a fair comment. But what I mean is in a fleet environment. Combined with an ANZAC, they could provide another pad and have room for crews and supplies, allowing two helos to be airborne. Adventageous, as unlike the Adelaide class, the ANZACs can only take one helo.

And WRT the A109's and not being a true marine helo. The Aussie Blackhawks regularly deployed on Kanimbla and Manoora. The RAEME guys would just coat them in some sort of substance before they embarked. Much to the annoyance of the aircrew during preflight :lul after 20+ years of ops there doesn't seem to be any corrosion related problems. Perhaps the Kiwis will do the same if they embark the 109's. Which hopefully they do. With 8 frames it's do-able.

 

[Cadredave]

Defiantly keep the LAVs. While on armour, why is the PRT cruising around in Hummers? Instead of leasing them, why not get Bushmasters? They can also carry around support staff at the LAV Regiments (can't remember...is it QMR or 2/1 that has LAVs...or both?) like Australia's 1 BDE when back home in NZ.

PRT has the fol vehicles to chose from,

1. NZLAV, 2. Uparmoured Humvees, & 3. Uparmoured Hilux, first two vehicle are based up in the Nth East of our AO as a Lav is unable to access some of the AO due to the lack of suitable roads and being to big,

The Humvees are already in country we (Army) do not have the funds to purchase the bushmaster, train and deploy this orphan vehicle into theatre hence the reason we use humvee practical reason only plus bagram is just down the road.

QAMR & 1 RNZIR are the LAV based units Army is still deciding what our replacement U1700L & 2228 replacement will be that Rfi is still a few years away.

CD

 

[treehuggingaj]

PRT has the fol vehicles to chose from,

1. NZLAV, 2. Uparmoured Humvees, & 3. Uparmoured Hilux, first two vehicle are based up in the Nth East of our AO as a Lav is unable to access some of the AO due to the lack of suitable roads and being to big,

The Humvees are already in country we (Army) do not have the funds to purchase the bushmaster, train and deploy this orphan vehicle into theatre hence the reason we use humvee practical reason only plus bagram is just down the road.

QAMR & 1 RNZIR are the LAV based units Army is still deciding what our replacement U1700L & 2228 replacement will be that Rfi is still a few years away.

CD

Valid points. Thanks for that. Bushmasters have saves a lot of lives, so as long as PRT vehicles are doing the same.

 

[ngatimozart]

PRT has the fol vehicles to chose from,

1. NZLAV, 2. Uparmoured Humvees, & 3. Uparmoured Hilux, first two vehicle are based up in the Nth East of our AO as a Lav is unable to access some of the AO due to the lack of suitable roads and being to big,

The Humvees are already in country we (Army) do not have the funds to purchase the bushmaster, train and deploy this orphan vehicle into theatre hence the reason we use humvee practical reason only plus bagram is just down the road.

QAMR & 1 RNZIR are the LAV based units Army is still deciding what our replacement U1700L & 2228 replacement will be that Rfi is still a few years away.

CD

Since they are using leased Toyotas in country I always wondered why NZDF didn't take some of the Pinzgauers over. Seems it would have been more cost effective in the long run and isn't that one of the reasons why the Pinzgauers were bought. Certainly would have save doing kiwi mods to Toyotas to fit a gunner and ensure seating for said gunner.

 

[Cadredave]

Since they are using leased Toyotas in country I always wondered why NZDF didn't take some of the Pinzgauers over. Seems it would have been more cost effective in the long run and isn't that one of the reasons why the Pinzgauers were bought. Certainly would have save doing kiwi mods to Toyotas to fit a gunner and ensure seating for said gunner.

The decission to deploy what vehicles was made by HQNZDF & JFNZ, why pinny did not deploy is a mystery and the original answer has been lost in the mist of time, the real answer to your question cant be answered by me on this forum (not for public disscussion) as for the kiwi mods our RNZEME craftsmen could make those in there sleep they were an adhoc arrangement at the time and served there purpose until the IED threat started to become a major issue.

CD

 

[RegR]

I suppose the pinz is not the most suitable veh in such a IED potted theatre going off the brits reaction to their versions however surely must be a better bet than an up-armoured hilux? or not(according to crumpy they're pretty tough), but I can see the dismay at the cost of purchaseing them and being seen not to deploy them preffering a civ-modded cheaper variant. Good to see them in the Timor AO though, would suit that threat level.

CD surely defence have something in mind for mog/22 replacement or are even evaluating types in Waiouru? Actros for Log, MAN for engrs, LMTV for workshops, you would assume bound to be one of these makes? I guess whoevers the cheapest at the time will win out on the day going by our financial state however I hope they take quality over affordability for safety, useability and the 20-50 year lifespan they are expected to acheive

 

[Todjaeger]

If I can go back to choppers and ships (forgive me for back tracking), I mentioned a few posts back that with an offensive helo and a CIWS and/or other countermeasures, the OPV's could step up a level from an armed customs vessel to an ok ASW vessel. General consensus was that the ship itself didn't have the systems to support the helo. Which is a fair comment. But what I mean is in a fleet environment. Combined with an ANZAC, they could provide another pad and have room for crews and supplies, allowing two helos to be airborne. Adventageous, as unlike the Adelaide class, the ANZACs can only take one helo.

Realistically, all an OPV could do to provide an 'offensive' helo would be to act as a transport, hangar and fuel depot. In order to safely function in an offensive capacity, whatever helo the OPV was acting as the carrier for would need to take off from the OPV, lilypad onto an Anzac FFH to be armed, and the take off again to deploy. Before returning to the OPV for maintenance, repairs, etc, the helo would then need to lilypad back onto the Anzac, have any unexpended munitions removed (or dump/fire the muntions) prior to landing back on the OPV.

Given the other systems which the OPV lacks (CDL, self-defence suites, etc) the OPV is in no position to operate in a threat environment where a frigate would benefit from having an additional helo available.

-Cheers

 

[ngatimozart]

The PM has just announced that another SAS soldier has been killed in Afghanistan, in the Wardack Province outside Kabul. Kiwi soldier killed in Afghanistan, PM confirms | Stuff.co.nz May he RIP. No name yet and apparently not Wllie Apiata VC.

 

[steve33]

The PM has just announced that another SAS soldier has been killed in Afghanistan, in the Wardack Province outside Kabul. Kiwi soldier killed in Afghanistan, PM confirms | Stuff.co.nz May he RIP. No name yet and apparently not Wllie Apiata VC.

They said he was hit in the head at the beginning of the fight they were surrounding a compound and were spotted they didn't say who was spotted an SAS member or one of the Afgan special responce unit that was with them.

When the other SAS member was killed a month ago there were hassles trying to go and deal with the insurgents who were in the compound the Afgans were mucking round deciding who was going to go in and the SAS couldn't go in for a few hours rather than being able to respond right away like they wanted to that was the report i read in the paper.

I saw another doco with American special forces and they were out at night in a convoy and a member of the Afgan national army turned on the headlights of there ute and lit up the whole convoy the Taliban who didn't know where they were saw them and detonated an IED killing some of the US forces.

No disrespect intended but how good are these afgans that our SAS are operating with.?

 

[ngatimozart]

They said he was hit in the head at the beginning of the fight they were surrounding a compound and were spotted they didn't say who was spotted an SAS member or one of the Afgan special responce unit that was with them.

When the other SAS member was killed a month ago there were hassles trying to go and deal with the insurgents who were in the compound the Afgans were mucking round deciding who was going to go in and the SAS couldn't go in for a few hours rather than being able to respond right away like they wanted to that was the report i read in the paper.

I saw another doco with American special forces and they were out at night in a convoy and a member of the Afgan national army turned on the headlights of there ute and lit up the whole convoy the Taliban who didn't know where they were saw them and detonated an IED killing some of the US forces.

No disrespect intended but how good are these afgans that our SAS are operating with.?

Put it this way, I think the ones that the SAS are training will be good, but in the Kabul incident it appears that it was the higher ups who caused the fubar. In this case, from what was said, these Taliban fought it out and some one got in a good shot. The mentoring job that SAS are doing at the moment, is in reality, probably more dangerous than if they had planned and executed the op themselves. Another thought has come to mind, just how good was the operational security on this op? There was a search warrant and an arrest warrant. That is out of the SAS hands. Lets be honest, the Afghan Gov & its institutions have got to be riddled with Taliban and others agents. Just makes sense.

 

[steve33]

Put it this way, I think the ones that the SAS are training will be good, but in the Kabul incident it appears that it was the higher ups who caused the fubar. In this case, from what was said, these Taliban fought it out and some one got in a good shot. The mentoring job that SAS are doing at the moment, is in reality, probably more dangerous than if they had planned and executed the op themselves. Another thought has come to mind, just how good was the operational security on this op? There was a search warrant and an arrest warrant. That is out of the SAS hands. Lets be honest, the Afghan Gov & its institutions have got to be riddled with Taliban and others agents. Just makes sense.

That was the way i was looking at it the SAS when they were operating on there own would be better off and there isn't really the chance of people narking on them before they go on operations.

I mentioned my concern with what they were going to be doing mentoring these afgans a while back on this forum after i saw what happened to the US special forces on the history channel; with the afgan turning on the lights and lighting up the whole convoy which resulted in the taliban setting off an IED and killing some of the US forces.

I guess though the job the SAS is doing training these guys is important and needs to be done as part of the countries long term future it's just such a bitter pill.

 

[ngatimozart]

That was the way i was looking at it the SAS when they were operating on there own would be better off and there isn't really the chance of people narking on them before they go on operations.

I mentioned my concern with what they were going to be doing mentoring these afgans a while back on this forum after i saw what happened to the US special forces on the history channel; with the afgan turning on the lights and lighting up the whole convoy which resulted in the taliban setting off an IED and killing some of the US forces.

I guess though the job the SAS is doing training these guys is important and needs to be done as part of the countries long term future it's just such a bitter pill.

Yep, it is a bitter pill and no disrespect to him, his whanau or the SAS, but when we all put the uniform on be it Navy, Army, or Air Force that was / is one of the risks that came / comes with the job. To his whanau, the Squadron and NZDF our condolences. Kia kaha.

 

[Cadredave]

Put it this way, I think the ones that the SAS are training will be good, but in the Kabul incident it appears that it was the higher ups who caused the fubar. In this case, from what was said, these Taliban fought it out and some one got in a good shot. The mentoring job that SAS are doing at the moment, is in reality, probably more dangerous than if they had planned and executed the op themselves. Another thought has come to mind, just how good was the operational security on this op? There was a search warrant and an arrest warrant. That is out of the SAS hands. Lets be honest, the Afghan Gov & its institutions have got to be riddled with Taliban and others agents. Just makes sense.

Ok guys I'll deal with the concerns one at a time:

The mentoring job that SAS are doing at the moment, is in reality, probably more dangerous than if they had planned and executed the op themselves.

Mentoring is one of the most dangerous jobs that any soldier can undertake regardless if your SOF or Infantry, we are not alone in losing mentors in Afghanistan the US/UK/Aust have all lost pers as mentors the risks wheather you planned the Op or someone else are the same.

Another thought has come to mind, just how good was the operational security on this op?

Afghan Interior Ministry are top notch they are very good at there job when it comes to security the Operational & Tactical security are definately in the hands of the CRU/SAS no bones about that at all.

There was a search warrant and an arrest warrant. That is out of the SAS hands. Lets be honest, the Afghan Gov & its institutions have got to be riddled with Taliban and others agents. Just makes sense.

This OP had to meet all legal requirement thresholds and evidential requirements before the warrant is issued by the Ministry of the Interior Standard Operating Proceedure for ISAF. In other words there are multiple layers from ISAF/NZDF and Host Nation Country this all takes time & does not happen over night. Even the PRT must follow these SOP 95% of the time nothing happens this incident fell into the 5%.

I myself have conducted patrols that have been comprimised due to nothing more than someone being nosey or having a piss right where we were in an O.P. You can have the best security, training, equipment and still get comprimised due to nothing more than human nature or animals this is exactly what happened in this instance it was just plane bad luck.

We were briefed today by the CA after getting the brief it became very clear that Murphy law (that Irish buggar) hand was all over this incident shit happens nothing sinister was at play that caused his death.

The saddest part in this story was that he was the advance Combat medic that delt with Douggie Grant.

RIP brother rest stand clear.

as inscibed on the SAS memorial:

But who are ye, in rags and rotten shoes,
You dirty-bearded, blocking up the way?

We are the Pilgrims, master; we shall go
Always a little further; it may be
Beyond that last blue mountain barred with snow
Across that angry or that glimmering sea,

CD

 

[htbrst]

Also, I wonder if there are any USN SH-2G's sitting in storage ready for purchase to reduce to spares - I don't think they had too many hours prior to retirement

Well well well, It looks like there is least two - unless Kaman is looking to make a sale of a couple ex-RAN ones
Ecuador – SH-2G Helicopters

So perhaps a new operator to share the joys of operating the SH-2G alongside NZ, Poland and Egypt :smooth: It will be interesting to see if this goes through

 

[ngatimozart]

Well well well, It looks like there is least two - unless Kaman is looking to make a sale of a couple ex-RAN ones
Ecuador – SH-2G Helicopters

So perhaps a new operator to share the joys of operating the SH-2G alongside NZ, Poland and Egypt :smooth: It will be interesting to see if this goes through

IMHO we should replace ours sooner rather than later. Would make more fiscal sense. That would appeal to the bean counters.

 

[Openminded]

Interesting Topic

I was wondering if anyone could point me in the direction of any other great forums?

NO.

The rest of your post was edited. It was completely off topic. Please read the rules before you post again.

 

[ngatimozart]

See the French are looking at a Public Private Lease Purchase system for acquiring 14 KC30 MRTTs. France Eyes Public-Private Lease for Tanker - Defense News Maybe it could an option NZG looks at for medium MP / transport, C130 and P3K2 replacement. I see the RAAF is at present flying leased King Airs in place of Caribous until Caribou replacement is determined.