New Zealand Army

[ngatimozart]

In another direction: given that we are aiming to have an amphibious force by 2015 wouldn't be good to have some amphibious vehicles. From what I have seen online our LAVs are not. Are there amphib members of the LAV family out there? can they be converted?

A thread about AAVs for the Australian Army was stated the other day. http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/navy-maritime/across-beach-aavs-australian-army-12129/ Long story short being that since ADF acquiring to LHDs would the ADF acquire AAVs? Answers are no and that nations who do have AAVs are holding onto them. The Australian Army will be inserted by helo and landing craft. In NZs case we most defintely wouldn't get any swimming vehicles.

 

[Raven22]

I read that the bomb used was 20Kg do you think a V shaped Hull vehicle like an
Rg32 or a bushmaster would give people a chance of survival.

That's very much a 'how long is a piece of string' question, as there are dozens of considerations, not least being what is the 20kg of explosive (is it military grade explosive or the normal home made explosive you get in Afghan - there's a big difference).

However, the Bushmaster was specifically designed to defeat a double stacked anti-tank mine, which is in the order of 20kg. There have also been dozens of Bushies in Afghan hit with IEDs of that magnitude where the crew have all survived. It's hard to go into more detail on an open forum though.

And how do you think a LAV would go against a blast that big.

Everyone would die instantly. You'd be taking the driver out with a spoon.

I know our top military brass and our politcal leaders are saying they would have died no matter what they are in but i take that with caution because they will be covering their arses the heat is really going on them.

It's a war and war involves risk. You can't eliminate risk and often by trying to you have the opposite effect to that intended. Having said that, you wouldn't get me into a Humvee in Afghan for a million bucks.

 

[the road runner]

@ Raven i recall the Dutch in Astan had a Lav hit with a IED and a number of dutch soldiers were injured and killed. A big reason why the Dutch purchased some Bushmasters.

@ngatimozart Abe was alluding that CB90's are on a wish list to escort the LCM's from our new LHD,s.

 

[recce.k1]

One thing I wondered about the Humvee is whether it has the same level of IED counter measure systems (eg jammers?) or whether the LAV's which are reported to have them can also offer protection for the Humvees (but then again this is an open forum which anyone anywhere can read so I don't necessarily want to know the answer).

CD (and media) have previously described the harsh terrain and poor roading in the province. Then again if LAV can operate in various instances then surely so can the Bushmaster?

Then again comparing LAV's and Bushmasters may be like apples and oranges, as LAV has other advantages (eg thermal sights and so on). Bushmaster the V hull protection etc.

But of course our LAV design predates the V hull designs. I suppose if some LAV's were sold for the new LAV or MRAP designs surely that would be a good thing? Then again will the pollies want to deploy into similar war zones once this deployment ends? On the other hand IED's and fractured states won't be going away, it could be argued that NZDF will still find itself in similar situations into the future. Seems a shame NZ can't or won't pick up Bushmasters in the interim.

 

[RegR]

@ Raven i recall the Dutch in Astan had a Lav hit with a IED and a number of dutch soldiers were injured and killed. A big reason why the Dutch purchased some Bushmasters.

@ngatimozart Abe was alluding that CB90's are on a wish list to escort the LCM's from our new LHD,s.

Dutch have LAVs? Although I do think we should get bushmasters(govt harps on about interaoperability with Aus and yet?) maybe bushmaster may not have been able to help in this particular instance. I thought we use either LAV or humvee for patrolling depending on the various terrain therefore since it was a humvee assumedly it was a humvee patrol thus in an area inaccessible by LAV(ie larger heavier wagons). Remember the roading network is not like the State highway 1 which was shown when we lost a per to humvee rollover. The humvee is the smallest armour(I hope we are not still using the hiluxs) available to kiwis and a bushie sits somewhere in-between humvee and LAV. The more protection you have the more weight you have so if the roads cannot handle them then bigger is in this case not better. Either way whats to say if we send in bigger vehicles Taliban won't just plant bigger bombs to counter and by the sounds this was a pretty big IED anyway, the shockwave pressure alone could probably kill.

Agreed a flat bottomed humvee is not ideal but maybe there could be a similar class v-shaped option out there(however maybe too little too late for us). Our Afghan experience will lead to lessons learned on future armoured mobility and hopefully some more realistic equipment. Imagine armoured pinzgauers performance/survivability in this type of op???

Lucas I think the veh you are reffering to was called the taipan which eventually lost out to the bushmaster in Aussies selection process.

 

[steve33]

One thing I wondered about the Humvee is whether it has the same level of IED counter measure systems (eg jammers?) or whether the LAV's which are reported to have them can also offer protection for the Humvees (but then again this is an open forum which anyone anywhere can read so I don't necessarily want to know the answer).

CD (and media) have previously described the harsh terrain and poor roading in the province. Then again if LAV can operate in various instances then surely so can the Bushmaster?

Then again comparing LAV's and Bushmasters may be like apples and oranges, as LAV has other advantages (eg thermal sights and so on). Bushmaster the V hull protection etc.

But of course our LAV design predates the V hull designs. I suppose if some LAV's were sold for the new LAV or MRAP designs surely that would be a good thing? Then again will the pollies want to deploy into similar war zones once this deployment ends? On the other hand IED's and fractured states won't be going away, it could be argued that NZDF will still find itself in similar situations into the future. Seems a shame NZ can't or won't pick up Bushmasters in the interim.

watched on the news tonight and it was stated that our military asked about borrowing some MRAPS and there were none available but it was stated they were offered some earlier model MRAP and they turned them down which is hard to understand surely they would be better than a Humvee.

 

[steve33]

That's very much a 'how long is a piece of string' question, as there are dozens of considerations, not least being what is the 20kg of explosive (is it military grade explosive or the normal home made explosive you get in Afghan - there's a big difference).

However, the Bushmaster was specifically designed to defeat a double stacked anti-tank mine, which is in the order of 20kg. There have also been dozens of Bushies in Afghan hit with IEDs of that magnitude where the crew have all survived. It's hard to go into more detail on an open forum though.



Everyone would die instantly. You'd be taking the driver out with a spoon.



It's a war and war involves risk. You can't eliminate risk and often by trying to you have the opposite effect to that intended. Having said that, you wouldn't get me into a Humvee in Afghan for a million bucks.

Pretty shocking what you say about the LAV they look pretty solid but i don't have the experience about explosives trying to picture a 20kg explosion and what it looks like.

 

[recce.k1]

watched on the news tonight and it was stated that our military asked about borrowing some MRAPS and there were none available but it was stated they were offered some earlier model MRAP and they turned them down which is hard to understand surely they would be better than a Humvee.

Didn't see the news but noticed the NZ Herald ran a similar article on that today, but isn't that simply old news rehashed from a year ago or so i.e. the request was actually made a couple of years ago (when MRAP's were in high demand in more pressing areas of Afghanistan and thus couldn't be released to the kiwis operating in relatively quieter areas)?

 

[steve33]

Didn't see the news but noticed the NZ Herald ran a similar article on that today, but isn't that simply old news rehashed from a year ago or so i.e. the request was actually made a couple of years ago (when MRAP's were in high demand in more pressing areas of Afghanistan and thus couldn't be released to the kiwis operating in relatively quieter areas)?

Yeah they made the request when we suffered our first death in an IED attack when our guys were in a Humvee that was a couple of years ago but the point is still relevent.

It said tonight they were offered an earlier model of MRAP and they turned it down which seems odd.

It is a shame when our army brought new vehicles instead of buying 105 LAV 111 and the Pinzi what ever you call it don't know the whole name which is also a flat bottomed death trap they could have brought a smaller numer of LAV111 to provide the battalions with 25mm fire support and spent the rest of the money on bushmasters.

 

[Raven22]

Seems a shame NZ can't or won't pick up Bushmasters in the interim.

It is strange since Australia literally has more Bushies than it know what to do with. There are still hundreds of them sitting in storage waiting for delivery to units. I'm sure if NZ asked they could have all the Bushies they could ever want for Afghan on a plane within a week. Hell, you could drive them up to Bamyan from Uruzgan within a couple of days.

It said tonight they were offered an earlier model of MRAP and they turned it down which seems odd.

The early MRAPs were all but restricted to roads and would rollover the instant you took them cross country. They would have been useless for he Kiwis in Afghanistan. It wasn't until the M-ATVs came in that the Yanks had a decent vehicle for Afghanistan.

 

[steve33]

It is strange since Australia literally has more Bushies than it know what to do with. There are still hundreds of them sitting in storage waiting for delivery to units. I'm sure if NZ asked they could have all the Bushies they could ever want for Afghan on a plane within a week. Hell, you could drive them up to Bamyan from Uruzgan within a couple of days.



The early MRAPs were all but restricted to roads and would rollover the instant you took them cross country. They would have been useless for he Kiwis in Afghanistan. It wasn't until the M-ATVs came in that the Yanks had a decent vehicle for Afghanistan.

Thanks for explaining about the early model MRAPS.

As far as the Bushmasters go i think our politicians are in a position where they are trying to cover their arses they have said that no vehicle would have saved the people but the history of the bushmaster in Afganistan shows they would have had some chance even if it meant being seriously wounded it is better than dead.

To get the bushmasters is pretty much admitting that they have been sending our troops out in obselete vehicles which are nothing more than steel coffins and that will not go down well with the public.

And the top brass in New Zealands military know who butters their bread they want their pensions and a nice job when they retire so they will tow the party line.

John Key also says only a small amount of SAS will be sent back to help plan a counterstrike but it will probably be carried out by other special forces probably American and nothing against the US special forces but this is our business and our SAS are right up there with the best espically with long range recon and tracking and when another of our members was killed two years ago in an IED attack the SAS went into Baglan and cleaned up the people who did it.

Key doesn't want to send them back because he is scared of more casulties and is worried about what it will do to his poll numbers it reminds me of the comment Tom Berenger made in Platoon about politicians trying to fight wars with one arm tied around their balls.

The reality is we are at war our soldiers now find themselves in a real combat situation with a group of insurgents who have shown they know how to make effective bombs and also lay efffective small arms ambushes and we don't have enough infantry on the ground to deal with it and the Humvees are not up to the job and if Key thinks he can stick to the status co for the next 8 months we are going to have more casulties anyway.

We need the SAS over there going on offense in Baglan province and more infantry to support the PRT helping secure the road against IED putting the maximum amount of pressure on this insurgent group to minimize what they can do to us until we leave in april.

That is my 5 cents worth and will it happen i doubt it because Key doesn't have the balls i mean being realistic this is a guy who felt he should go to his sons baseball game rather than the funeral of two dead soldiers because his son had made sacrifices.

 

[KiwiRob]

Raven I don't think politicians need to attend funerals, they are not political events, they are funerals, we don't need to turn them into something they are not.

Bushmasters don't appear to be that expensive, according to Wikipedia they are about 600,000 AUD each, at this price there is no reason why we couldn't buy 10 or so for Afghanistan.

 

[steve33]

Raven I don't think politicians need to attend funerals, they are not political events, they are funerals, we don't need to turn them into something they are not.

Bushmasters don't appear to be that expensive, according to Wikipedia they are about 600,000 AUD each, at this price there is no reason why we couldn't buy 10 or so for Afghanistan.

It was steve33 who made the comment about the funerals.

Key should have attended because they are not just standard funerals they are for a New Zealand soldier who dies in the service of their country sent there by a politician.

If it is good enough for our politicians to stand up and make the case to send these soldiers to foreign countries then it is good enough for them to attend the funerals when the soldiers are killed.

It is called respect and is alot more important than a game of baseball.

 

[steve33]

Dutch have LAVs? Although I do think we should get bushmasters(govt harps on about interaoperability with Aus and yet?) maybe bushmaster may not have been able to help in this particular instance. I thought we use either LAV or humvee for patrolling depending on the various terrain therefore since it was a humvee assumedly it was a humvee patrol thus in an area inaccessible by LAV(ie larger heavier wagons). Remember the roading network is not like the State highway 1 which was shown when we lost a per to humvee rollover. The humvee is the smallest armour(I hope we are not still using the hiluxs) available to kiwis and a bushie sits somewhere in-between humvee and LAV. The more protection you have the more weight you have so if the roads cannot handle them then bigger is in this case not better. Either way whats to say if we send in bigger vehicles Taliban won't just plant bigger bombs to counter and by the sounds this was a pretty big IED anyway, the shockwave pressure alone could probably kill.

Agreed a flat bottomed humvee is not ideal but maybe there could be a similar class v-shaped option out there(however maybe too little too late for us). Our Afghan experience will lead to lessons learned on future armoured mobility and hopefully some more realistic equipment. Imagine armoured pinzgauers performance/survivability in this type of op???

Lucas I think the veh you are reffering to was called the taipan which eventually lost out to the bushmaster in Aussies selection process.

I read an article a while back about the Pinzgauers and i think it was the British using them in Afganistan and they stopped using them.

In the article it said something about the drivers sitting over the axle and when you get hit with an IED the Drivers compartment takes the blast the article was scathing.

All they are good for is south pacific cyclone relief and that is why Helen Clarks government brought them because that is all they planned on using the NZDF for.

They would have considered Bamiyan a safe option where they didn't need to worry.

 

[Cadredave]

As far as the Bushmasters go i think our politicians are in a position where they are trying to cover their arses they have said that no vehicle would have saved the people but the history of the bushmaster in Afganistan shows they would have had some chance even if it meant being seriously wounded it is better than dead.

Money is the real reason we did not get Bushmasters to replace the M1151 or the MATV we were capped at a certain $ amount and told to remain within it pure and simple.

To get the bushmasters is pretty much admitting that they have been sending our troops out in obselete vehicles which are nothing more than steel coffins and that will not go down well with the public.

No argument there Steve.

John Key also says only a small amount of SAS will be sent back to help plan a counterstrike but it will probably be carried out by other special forces probably American and nothing against the US special forces but this is our business

Steve what makes you think that US Spec Ops werent involved with the last strike, they were and they were involved right thru out the whole opearation if you want to use their assets then they will come and play as well.

when another of our members was killed two years ago in an IED attack the SAS went into Baglan and cleaned up the people who did it.

And the Taliban became directly involved in our area thanks to that strike dealing a mortal blow to the local insurgents / criminal element did it improve life for the locals & PRT maybe may be not.

Key doesn't want to send them back because he is scared of more casulties and is worried about what it will do to his poll numbers it reminds me of the comment Tom Berenger made in Platoon about politicians trying to fight wars with one arm tied around their balls.

Got nothing to do with it the SAS are back into the swing of regenerating capability lost like tracking, jungle, air ops to name a few there are enought SOF in country who can do the job for us.

The reality is we are at war our soldiers now find themselves in a real combat situation with a group of insurgents who have shown they know how to make effective bombs and also lay efffective small arms ambushes

The only shock seems to come from the NZ public we (Army) have known for a long time that we are in a War with insurgents we have known for quite some time that they can make bombs you will never know the successes we have had against the bad guys you only hear about the loses I cant answer your questions ref the so called ambushes as that is still OPSEC.

and we don't have enough infantry on the ground to deal with it

Directly related to my first answer goes right back to when aunty helen was PM she and her Min Def sure knew how to neuter the combat arms to show a more gentler pacifist NZDF in bamyan.

We need the SAS over there going on offense in Baglan province and more infantry to support the PRT

SAS require intel of the highest order they also require liaison with the hungarian troops in baglan province otherwise we could or would end up with a embarasing blue on blue incident its not as easy as you make it out to be, it requires alot of work to get a mouse trap to enter another Brigades TAOR. Until the cap is altered and payed for nothing is going to change IMO.

this is a guy who felt he should go to his sons baseball game rather than the funeral of two dead soldiers because his son had made sacrifices.

As a serving soldier I really could not care if he was there or not to me as long as the Gov Gen was there as our Commander in Chief representative he is the only person who really counts to stand next to our fallen.
CD

 

[Cadredave]

Raven i recall the Dutch in Astan had a Lav hit with a IED and a number of dutch soldiers were injured and killed.

This is the vehicle that the Dutch replaced with the Bushmaster:
Military Vehicle Photos - Royal Dutch Army Patri XA 188
As you can see its no NZLAV very different to our vehicle, and the reason they choose your Bushie.

 

[steve33]

Money is the real reason we did not get Bushmasters to replace the M1151 or the MATV we were capped at a certain $ amount and told to remain within it pure and simple.


No argument there Steve.


Steve what makes you think that US Spec Ops werent involved with the last strike, they were and they were involved right thru out the whole opearation if you want to use their assets then they will come and play as well.


And the Taliban became directly involved in our area thanks to that strike dealing a mortal blow to the local insurgents / criminal element did it improve life for the locals & PRT maybe may be not.


Got nothing to do with it the SAS are back into the swing of regenerating capability lost like tracking, jungle, air ops to name a few there are enought SOF in country who can do the job for us.


The only shock seems to come from the NZ public we (Army) have known for a long time that we are in a War with insurgents we have known for quite some time that they can make bombs you will never know the successes we have had against the bad guys you only hear about the loses I cant answer your questions ref the so called ambushes as that is still OPSEC.


Directly related to my first answer goes right back to when aunty helen was PM she and her Min Def sure knew how to neuter the combat arms to show a more gentler pacifist NZDF in bamyan.



SAS require intel of the highest order they also require liaison with the hungarian troops in baglan province otherwise we could or would end up with a embarasing blue on blue incident its not as easy as you make it out to be, it requires alot of work to get a mouse trap to enter another Brigades TAOR. Until the cap is altered and payed for nothing is going to change IMO.


As a serving soldier I really could not care if he was there or not to me as long as the Gov Gen was there as our Commander in Chief representative he is the only person who really counts to stand next to our fallen.
CD

As far as the SAS goes all respect to you they may be regenerating capability but there is politics involved as well in them not going back Key wants out and they are desperate to not have anymore casulties the other day it was said the government asked for confirmation from the army that having the troops patrolling in Baglan province wouldn't put them in more danger.

Our politicians are counting the days to bail.

As far a John key goes attending the funerals everyone has their own view as did one of the guys who was killed in the Humvee bombing who was pretty pissed about it on his face book page.

I couldn't believe when i saw John key on Tv talking about how he felt he should go to a baseball game because of the sacrifices his son has made that was real poor taste.

At the end of the day it doesn't change the situation for the troops on the ground key is a politician and he will do what politicians do.

One thing is for sure if our leaders are so concerned about keeping casulties down they better not kid themselves that they can keep the status co 145 PRT and Humvees because this group of insurgents know their stuff and they are going to be emboldened by their recent successes and will try again.

Real shame we couldn't get the Bushmasters maybe at some point they sell some of the LAV they seem to think we have to many and use that money to buy some.

Good to hear from you.

 

[Gibbo]

PRT Vehicles...

Man this is a hard time for the NZDF – that’s now 10 of our best, not to mention the guys just starting a massive effort to recover from some pretty serious injury. Our thoughts are with those 10, the wounded & collectively their families.

Much of what needs to be said has now been said – but I’m going to have a rant, suffice to say it is firmly aimed at those in their ivory towers (policy makers - top brass, treasury & Govt). I’ve tended to keep it to myself but no longer - that rant is basically about how long it’s taken to get decent vehicles into theatre.

I know the guys on the ground are best placed to decide what gear is used, but now the goal-posts have definitely moved & not only should we have had NZLAV in theatre earlier (IMHO) - we should’ve seen serious headway in getting some (8-10?)MRAPs purchased by now. I’d like to have seen a NZLAV + MRAP combo doing the job there by now, but to date there still no obvious plan to even consider MRAP as a priority - even post Afghanistan!

I don’t want to sound be a doom-sayer but we know these most recent attacks are the work of a much more determined; well prepared & trained cell. This cell will be well aware of the small size of the NZ PRT, and will also be well aware that our PRT are a highly respected operation, especially in US eyes. They’ll now be considerably emboldened by the ‘success’ of their recent ‘efforts’. I think we all agree that we can expect the PRT to see a lot more activity by insurgents. They’ll also be encouraged by the knowledge we’re due to pull out in the next 7 months or so.

What this has done is show those who sit in ivory towers & ‘make policy’ that you can no longer consider peacekeeping an ‘easy’ option – the guys on the ground know this, but top brass & Govt can no longer assume that if things get tight we can just ship gear over – it’s needs to be there from day 1. It shouldn’t just all be about what the threat in our AOR is – equipment needs need to be predicated on what the bulk of the theatre finds necessary – ie: this escalation should’ve always been anticipated & prepared for.

Unfortunately the media bashing of vehicles deployed in Afghanistan is long overdue. First the ludicrous deployment of utes, but I’ve also never been keen on the Humvees which I’ve never felt comfortable with (it took the yanks seeing sense to make me realise I was indeed right). Then remember how we kept getting told NZLAVs were unsuitable for the roads – and whenever anyone questioned this assertion in the media (or even in this forum at times), we always heard the rebuff (mantra) they weren’t suitable.

Well they are there now & they are being operated successfully – and it should’ve happened earlier. Yes we’re well aware they’re not ideal for the IED risk & that the roads are often not more than goat tracks – but the solution to that is to operate them within their limits, not to just deem it ‘too hard’ & not deploy them at all!

And then there were even arguments about LAVs being too ‘war-like’ for the locals. You win support by your actions - both your manner & how you use you vehicles, not simply by what type of vehicle you have or don’t have. Our PRT haven’t lost support since deploying the NZLAV. Hey, no-one ever battered an eyelid at NZLAV on Chch streets after the quake!

Granted the Afghanis are a battle hardened lot with a whole generation or more who have lived under the rule of the gun – they wouldn’t bat an eyelid at LAVs etc, whereas peace-keeping in the SthPac they might get a little more jittery with LAV’s on the streets. But Afghanistan was never going to be a SthPac type operation, & we should’ve had NZLAV there for a lot longer, with MRAP possibly starting to arrive in the last 12 months.

Another thing this has made painfully clear to policy makers is that the weapon of choice in future is the IED. This threat can realistically be expected to become more prevalent in peacekeeping operations & consequently I’m confident we will see NZDF purchase a (small) fleet of MRAP’s in the coming decade.

More immediately I’d like to think the Aussies could be asked for some BushMasters but I suspect the logistics & training requirements of getting these into use over there would be too onerous to make them a viable choice in the next 7 months before we get out.

In the meantime the guys & girls ‘on the job’ will get on & keep doing what they do best – with some adjustment to allow for the threat. I think the heat’s about to really come on this new ‘cell’ that ISAF are apparently tracking!

Those involved in the PRT have been & are doing a fricking brilliant job and can keep their heads held high. Man I’m so proud of you guys up there! :dance

 

[Raven22]

I don’t want to sound be a doom-sayer but we know these most recent attacks are the work of a much more determined; well prepared & trained cell. This cell will be well aware of the small size of the NZ PRT, and will also be well aware that our PRT are a highly respected operation, especially in US eyes. They’ll now be considerably emboldened by the ‘success’ of their recent ‘efforts’. I think we all agree that we can expect the PRT to see a lot more activity by insurgents. They’ll also be encouraged by the knowledge we’re due to pull out in the next 7 months or so.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions there. Making judgements on Afghanistan based on experience in New Zealand probably won't be all that helpful. Afghanistan is a complicated place.

 

[Gibbo]

I think you are making a lot of assumptions there. Making judgements on Afghanistan based on experience in New Zealand probably won't be all that helpful. Afghanistan is a complicated place.

Hey I totally agree Afghanistan is a complicated place, and in many ways, not just operationally. I was trying to make that point although it may not have come out as such.

The Afghani people have a long history and are very wise - although you'd think from western media that many in the western world don't understand that.

I'd be interested to know what points you feel are wide of the mark? I don't deny I'll never set foot in the place.