New Zealand Army

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Well for the ADF in the 60’s national service was for a period of 2 years full time plus three years part time, NASHO's were sent to Vietnam, so I would assume 11 months intensive training,365 days overseas then spent another 4weeks prior to discharge from the regular army to the reserve.

Here is personal account of Mr. Bruce Wilson and his time as a NASHO as a driver in 85 transport troop in 69-70,

Vietnam War Diary | Wilson Family News & Travel

I would imagine if a scheme were to be put in place today it would be of a similar nature to the 60’s if the NASHO were only to do the basic light infantry or non technical trades.
NZ Army never deployed Territorial Force Units to Vietnam they were all RF or volunteers conducted 6 months basic & Infantry Corp trg, deployed to Malaysia 1 RNZIR to acclimatise then into theatre. Todays Vietnam Vets widely recoqnise that the Rifleman of today is technologically and technically more proficient our platoon sigs are using equipment that was once upon a time only seen in the SAS. The range of equipment used in Astan for a rifleman is staggering from;

ANPRC 117F & 150 and MBITR 148 either using digital or voice for comms, HKGMG 40mm, blue force tracking, 60mm mortars, upgraded IW Steyr, DMW, 84mm MRAAW, Humvee etc I could go on all day but you get the picture.

CD
 

t68

Well-Known Member
NZ Army never deployed Territorial Force Units to Vietnam they were all RF or volunteers conducted 6 months basic & Infantry Corp trg, deployed to Malaysia 1 RNZIR to acclimatise then into theatre. Todays Vietnam Vets widely recoqnise that the Rifleman of today is technologically and technically more proficient our platoon sigs are using equipment that was once upon a time only seen in the SAS. The range of equipment used in Astan for a rifleman is staggering from;
Yeah neither did Australia, you were regular army or conscripted for service in Vietnam. CMF(army reserve) was where you could go and get out of serving overseas, but this also lead to a decline in moral for traditional CMF members were the CMF came to mean a force of draft dodgers, but some members of the CMF did go over as observers.

The reason I brought it up was the question of how long it would take to train from no experience to a member who was deployable in the shortest amount of time with the right training.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yeah neither did Australia, you were regular army or conscripted for service in Vietnam. CMF(army reserve) was where you could go and get out of serving overseas, but this also lead to a decline in moral for traditional CMF members were the CMF came to mean a force of draft dodgers, but some members of the CMF did go over as observers.

The reason I brought it up was the question of how long it would take to train from no experience to a member who was deployable in the shortest amount of time with the right training.
No change from Vietnam it still is six months from civi street to Operational deployment.

CD
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Lucaz
Im hearing you about the Reserves but heres the argument that VFM are using, if you remove the following three from the NZDF you will save $76 mil they are

1. The Reserves,
2. The Boeings 757, and
3. DTA (Defence Technology Agency).

These are some of the options being put forward to Cabinet to decide in Jul / Aug, I dont fancy being the senior leadership of NZDF at the moment to preserve current capability something has to be sacrificed and im glad I dont have to make these choices.

CD
AND

Lets start with the TF, as a rifleman of some experience I can accurately state that I can train a civilian from basic to the Infantry battalion faster than it would for a TF soldier and they would be prepared for kinetic operations, this cant be said of the TF who were sent to the Solomons. TF do provide capable individuals but at $21Mil a year to provide individuals dont cut it anymore its more cost effective to bring them thru RF basic, corp trg & then into the Battalions as you can see this is Army centric only dont know enough about the other services to offer an opinion.

The Boeings are a great piece of kit unfortunately they are restricted in where they can fly into when supporting operations lets take Astan, Auck to Dubai to drop off paks and cargo and thats as far as they can go. They are restricted from flying into Astan as they dont have the (MAWS), flight deck armour and BAE Systems North America (Tracor) AN/ALE-47 countermeasures dispensing system. Only the C130H flys direct from Dubai to Bamyan because they have this equipment this restriction only applies to Military aircraft entering ISAF control now FEDX a civilian firm are not bound by this restriction and flys direct into Kabul and this is the real reason Govt has questioned the Boeings, why upgrade our 757 when we could charter FEDX or possibly get a better aircraft in the near future.

The bureaucracy is already shedding the fol ranks from the Army with Navy and Air going thru the same process;

10 Cols
15 Lt Cols
65 WO1
24 WO2 and
numerous people who's trades no longer exisit or will cease to exsist like admin, engr plumbers/sparkies/carpenters just to name a few. And this is for this year only & I can tell you it wont come close to $5mil same happening in the other two services. $76m is only part of the $350m we have to save within the next 3 years there are some huge projects that have to be funded from within NZDF budget,

ANZAC upgrade,
B vehicle Logistics upgrade,
Replacement Tanker etc

and no extra money for the next 5 - 10 years sentimentality has taken a back seat to cold harsh fiscal reality.

Now im not justifying it as my rank bracket is on the line too, at least we have learnt from our previous mistakes where interservice rivalries led to NZDF losing a valuable capability ACF. Something has to give & I keep saying it either we dictate the changes or government will and you know who the biggest loser :smash will be if government dictates our changes!!.

CD
I will be honest, I have concerns both about the expected reductions (and where) as well as that additional funding for the NZDF will not be available for the next 5-10 years. I see this situation as being ripe for Government to stuft things up, leaving the NZDF in less of a position to meet NZ defence needs if/when things go 'pear-shaped' than it already is.

Elimination of the Reserves IMO removes a potential 'holding place' for current NZDF personnel who no longer wish to serve full-time, but would still like to keep a hand in. Also, for a number of other national forces, the Reserves provide a sort of home guard/cadre unit, able to provide responses in the event of disaster, as well as a framework in the event of a large scale mobilization.

Now, for the elimination of some trades from the NZDF, how/why are some being eliminated? Engineers, electricians, carpenters, etc all strike me as being Corps of Royal NZ Engineer positions. If that is the case, is there any plan for 'civilian' assets to provide NZDF construction needs? If so, what is the expectation in unsafe/threatened areas? Would a civil firm work with the NZDF in potentially hostile territory, and if so, would it cost less/be more effective than NZDF personnel? Some how I have my doubts.

Elimination of the Defence Technology Agency also strikes me as a very poor idea. Granted the NZDF budget is small, and only a small portion of that goes for research and testing, but still... Is the expectation that the NZDF is going to become completely reliant on outside agencies for testing and evaluation of all NZDF technological needs? I understand not attempting to compete researchwise with a behemoth like the US (~13% of defence spending is on R&D), but no in house capability would mean a complete reliance on MOTS solutions. Depending on what/how it is done, the NZDF might not even be left with the means to independently evaluate which MOTS or commercial solution best fits NZ needs. Again, not a good position IMO.

As for the elimination of over 100 senior field grade officer and warrant positions... While if some of the personnel are 'dead weight' more concerned with empire building than delivering a useful capability that is understandable. However, the NZDF would also be losing a significant amount of experienced personnel, given that the officers would likely have all served at least a decade, if not more.

That amount of serve experience cannot normally be replaced easily, if it turns out that it is still needed.

Pretty much the one area where I do not really have significant reservations is the expectation to eliminate the B757's. While they can/do provide some useful capabilities, IMO they are too expensive for the amount and type of service they provide. From my POV, as B727 replacements, the B757's should never have been selected in the first place since there were better options available at the time of purchase. That is of course all water/dam at the point. Much like the C-130H LEP of course.

In short, I worry that the NZDF (or perhaps Government/MoD) is being penny-wise, but pound foolish.

-Cheers
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
AND



I will be honest, I have concerns both about the expected reductions (and where) as well as that additional funding for the NZDF will not be available for the next 5-10 years. I see this situation as being ripe for Government to stuft things up, leaving the NZDF in less of a position to meet NZ defence needs if/when things go 'pear-shaped' than it already is.

Elimination of the Reserves IMO removes a potential 'holding place' for current NZDF personnel who no longer wish to serve full-time, but would still like to keep a hand in. Also, for a number of other national forces, the Reserves provide a sort of home guard/cadre unit, able to provide responses in the event of disaster, as well as a framework in the event of a large scale mobilization.

Now, for the elimination of some trades from the NZDF, how/why are some being eliminated? Engineers, electricians, carpenters, etc all strike me as being Corps of Royal NZ Engineer positions. If that is the case, is there any plan for 'civilian' assets to provide NZDF construction needs? If so, what is the expectation in unsafe/threatened areas? Would a civil firm work with the NZDF in potentially hostile territory, and if so, would it cost less/be more effective than NZDF personnel? Some how I have my doubts.

Elimination of the Defence Technology Agency also strikes me as a very poor idea. Granted the NZDF budget is small, and only a small portion of that goes for research and testing, but still... Is the expectation that the NZDF is going to become completely reliant on outside agencies for testing and evaluation of all NZDF technological needs? I understand not attempting to compete researchwise with a behemoth like the US (~13% of defence spending is on R&D), but no in house capability would mean a complete reliance on MOTS solutions. Depending on what/how it is done, the NZDF might not even be left with the means to independently evaluate which MOTS or commercial solution best fits NZ needs. Again, not a good position IMO.

As for the elimination of over 100 senior field grade officer and warrant positions... While if some of the personnel are 'dead weight' more concerned with empire building than delivering a useful capability that is understandable. However, the NZDF would also be losing a significant amount of experienced personnel, given that the officers would likely have all served at least a decade, if not more.

That amount of serve experience cannot normally be replaced easily, if it turns out that it is still needed.

Pretty much the one area where I do not really have significant reservations is the expectation to eliminate the B757's. While they can/do provide some useful capabilities, IMO they are too expensive for the amount and type of service they provide. From my POV, as B727 replacements, the B757's should never have been selected in the first place since there were better options available at the time of purchase. That is of course all water/dam at the point. Much like the C-130H LEP of course.

In short, I worry that the NZDF (or perhaps Government/MoD) is being penny-wise, but pound foolish.

-Cheers
Tod ill deal with a couple of your querries only,

Reserves,
A major state of emergency is dealt with by the Regular Force, The last large scale mobilisation of our forces was WW2 TF can only be mobilised when a state of war is declared by parliment and signed off by the Gov General. TF during the Christchurch earth quake had to apply to there employers for annual leave to assist with the emergency.

RNZE,
Currently in Afghanistan (Bamyan) the current contract to look after Kiwi base is held with Dyna Corp before that it was KBR we have 4 x Engrs who look after the technical aspects of the base because all plumbing, electrical, and building codes are of NZ standards, now would it be alot cheaper to apply Nothern hemisphere standards instead of shipping all plumbing, wiring and electrical tools all the way from NZ?. Now who would I need more for a operational deployment a Field Engineer or a plumber.

Field grade officers are in roles & positions that have no current use with operations therefore they do not offer any capability. Dead wood is dead wood regardless of rank. Now Government has given us a choice & i dont want to keep repeating it, either we find the savings or Government will.

CD
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks Dave for the update. You are a real asset around here!!!

Incidently Dave could one of the options possibly going to Cabinet for the Reserve / TF - be that in the future they focus on the current Solomons types of tasking in the Pacific as LTG's and leave the sharp end stuff for the Regulars as the new CATG's?

A Rifle Company possibly to support Papakura and another possibly heading down the urban, jungle and amphib role. They are really ringing the changes and are starting to look a very different NZ Army compared to the old structure last tinkered with a few years ago.
Mr C & Lucasnz

Shape of the NZ Army 1 (NZ) Bde out to 2015 it looks like this.

2015 + Manoeuvre ORBAT
1RNZIR
Lt Inf - A, V, W, Spt & enhanced CSS,

QAMR
Cav - A, B, D, Spt & enhanced CSS,

2/1 RNZIR
Lt Inf
A, B, D, Spt & enhanced CSS,

CSpt
16 Fd to redevelop its options to spt 3 Mnvr units.

CSS
1st Line to Mnvr units enhanced, Garrison logistics / support to be handed over to civilian organisation ASAP.

3 Log Bn disbanded - CSST developed to support 2/1 RNZIR.
2 Log Bn - enhanced

Army want to intergrate Reserves with RF Units so each Mnvr units will have a TF Company posted in, however final decision still rests with Cabinet.

HR Company will be trained with a wider range of higher end skills, to operate as an regular rifle coy or support special forces operations. but to rotate thru the mnvr units time line unknown as of yet early days

CD
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Just checking/clarifying for the uninitiated:

1 RNZIR & 2/1 RNZIR will have 3 Rifle Company's .... plus a 4th "TF" Rifle Company (if Cabinet agrees to this)? Plus Combat Support and Combat Service Support.

QAMR will be organised into 3 (Squadrons, if that's the correct term)? They too will have 4th "TF" (Squadron/Coy)? Or being specialised Cav, would the TF's integrate with the Regulars (LAV crews)?

(If so, for a non expert like me that would surely make a lot of sense to have TF LAV crews (similar to RNZAF Reservists) eg Army spends a heap of time and money to train personnel to be LAV qualified crew - would be good to call upon these personnel when they conclude their active service when a situation (eg Canty earthquake patrols - frees up the Regulars etc) or active deployment requires them etc).

Sounds like the HR Company could end up conducting "higher end" type operations, which would be great for the morale of the Regulars (and hopefully reduce the likelyhood of such personnel quitting the NZDF and signing on with other allied armed forces to see some "action" etc)? So how would a HR Coy sustain itself - deploy a Platoon? Or would they simply operate for a fixed period as a Coy?

Finally some trivia, the abbreviations (eg V for Victor Company and W Whiskey etc for 1 RNZIR)? Do 2/1 and QAMR use the same naming convention - Alpha, Bravo and is that Delta? Wouldn't there be some confusion (or am I not understanding this properly)?
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Just checking/clarifying for the uninitiated:

1 RNZIR & 2/1 RNZIR will have 3 Rifle Company's .... plus a 4th "TF" Rifle Company (if Cabinet agrees to this)? Plus Combat Support and Combat Service Support.

QAMR will be organised into 3 (Squadrons, if that's the correct term)? They too will have 4th "TF" (Squadron/Coy)? Or being specialised Cav, would the TF's integrate with the Regulars (LAV crews)?

(If so, for a non expert like me that would surely make a lot of sense to have TF LAV crews (similar to RNZAF Reservists) eg Army spends a heap of time and money to train personnel to be LAV qualified crew - would be good to call upon these personnel when they conclude their active service when a situation (eg Canty earthquake patrols - frees up the Regulars etc) or active deployment requires them etc).

Sounds like the HR Company could end up conducting "higher end" type operations, which would be great for the morale of the Regulars (and hopefully reduce the likelyhood of such personnel quitting the NZDF and signing on with other allied armed forces to see some "action" etc)? So how would a HR Coy sustain itself - deploy a Platoon? Or would they simply operate for a fixed period as a Coy?

Finally some trivia, the abbreviations (eg V for Victor Company and W Whiskey etc for 1 RNZIR)? Do 2/1 and QAMR use the same naming convention - Alpha, Bravo and is that Delta? Wouldn't there be some confusion (or am I not understanding this properly)?
In a nut shell reece you got it, all three mnvr units will have a 4th rifle/cav company. Having talked to my armoured mates it would be difficult to qualify TF crews would take to long and skill fade with this vehicle is large but early days lets hope cabinet sign off on it.

little history lesson 1RNZIR renamed Bravo and Charlie Companies to Victor & Whiskey when the battalion was granted the campaigne honour South Vietnam 1967 - 72, 2/1 have only been manned with A,B & D Coys, Charlie has always been Infantry Corp Training Company in other word Infantry training Depot.

HR from the brief will be rotated around the two Lt Mnvr units every two years could change we will see still early days, there are other changes on the horizon.

CD
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In a nut shell reece you got it, all three mnvr units will have a 4th rifle/cav company. Having talked to my armoured mates it would be difficult to qualify TF crews would take to long and skill fade with this vehicle is large but early days lets hope cabinet sign off on it.

little history lesson 1RNZIR renamed Bravo and Charlie Companies to Victor & Whiskey when the battalion was granted the campaigne honour South Vietnam 1967 - 72, 2/1 have only been manned with A,B & D Coys, Charlie has always been Infantry Corp Training Company in other word Infantry training Depot.

HR from the brief will be rotated around the two Lt Mnvr units every two years could change we will see still early days, there are other changes on the horizon.

CD
Are they looking at forming a Battalion similiar to the RM Brigade support Battalion? Given everything esle it would make sense to bring Intell, MP etc under one command.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Are they looking at forming a Battalion similiar to the RM Brigade support Battalion? Given everything esle it would make sense to bring Intell, MP etc under one command.
Lucas,
No at this stage an ehanced ASIC Unit will be formed to bring all Int cell across Army into one formation MP will now come under comd of 1 (NZ) Bde instead of LCC.

CD
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Mr C & Lucasnz

Shape of the NZ Army 1 (NZ) Bde out to 2015 it looks like this.

2015 + Manoeuvre ORBAT
1RNZIR
Lt Inf - A, V, W, Spt & enhanced CSS,

QAMR
Cav - A, B, D, Spt & enhanced CSS,

2/1 RNZIR
Lt Inf
A, B, D, Spt & enhanced CSS,

CSpt
16 Fd to redevelop its options to spt 3 Mnvr units.

CSS
1st Line to Mnvr units enhanced, Garrison logistics / support to be handed over to civilian organisation ASAP.

3 Log Bn disbanded - CSST developed to support 2/1 RNZIR.
2 Log Bn - enhanced

Army want to intergrate Reserves with RF Units so each Mnvr units will have a TF Company posted in, however final decision still rests with Cabinet.

HR Company will be trained with a wider range of higher end skills, to operate as an regular rifle coy or support special forces operations. but to rotate thru the mnvr units time line unknown as of yet early days

CD
Quick question re the QAMR. Does NZ CAV have assault troopers, dismounted Inf, or do they supply the cars and crew only?
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Quick question re the QAMR. Does NZ CAV have assault troopers, dismounted Inf, or do they supply the cars and crew only?
Current QA conduct medium recon and APC lift for 2/1 RNZIR, Interim QA is part CAV and APC until they transition to the 2015 QA who will be returning to there origins as mounted riflemen fully intergrated mounted & dismounted.

CD
 

steve33

Member
I read somewhere the C9 machine guns used by the New Zealand army are due for replacement.

Does anyone know if they are going to be replaced with something similar i read that the U.S Marines are going to get rid of a lot of there M-249 SAW and replace them with a 5.56mm automatic rifle i think with 30 shot mag.
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I read somewhere the C9 machine guns used by the New Zealand army are due for replacement.

Does anyone know if they are going to be replaced with something similar i read that the U.S Marines are going to get rid of a lot of there M-249 SAW and replace them with a 5.56mm automatic rifle i think with 30 shot mag.
Yes they will be replaced within the next two years current systems are under trial right now. All C9 in the NZDF will be replaced not just Army we however are looking at a light weight 7.62mm system.

CD
 

steve33

Member
Yes they will be replaced within the next two years current systems are under trial right now. All C9 in the NZDF will be replaced not just Army we however are looking at a light weight 7.62mm system.

Thats excellent news i hope you guys get the 7.62mm the extra hitting power and range will be a bonus.

I saw on future weapons the Americans had a SAW that was a 7.62mm version of the M249 SAW which is 5.56mm

It had a cyclic rate of fire of i think 720-750RPM

I think it was designated the mark 48 the 5.56mm version was the mark 46
 

Cadredave

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Yes they will be replaced within the next two years current systems are under trial right now. All C9 in the NZDF will be replaced not just Army we however are looking at a light weight 7.62mm system.

Thats excellent news i hope you guys get the 7.62mm the extra hitting power and range will be a bonus.

I saw on future weapons the Americans had a SAW that was a 7.62mm version of the M249 SAW which is 5.56mm

It had a cyclic rate of fire of i think 720-750RPM

I think it was designated the mark 48 the 5.56mm version was the mark 46
Thats one of the trial weapon systems along with a version from HK and a few others. All trial wpns are being shot against the Mag 58 as that is the bench mark system. DSE is controlling the collection of facts hence the delay in bringing the system into service.
 

chis73

Active Member
Interesting report on the Ministry website

Hi all,

There's an interesting report that has popped up on the Ministry's website on replacement in-service weapons procurement. Short summary: Ten years, Progress: None. Good Grief - thank heavens we don't have any enemies!

[Off-topic]: By the way, whatever happened to that report on pilot training aircraft that was going to be completed 'shortly' after the 2010 white paper? :unknown

Chis73
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Hi all,

There's an interesting report that has popped up on the Ministry's website on replacement in-service weapons procurement. Short summary: Ten years, Progress: None. Good Grief - thank heavens we don't have any enemies!

[Off-topic]: By the way, whatever happened to that report on pilot training aircraft that was going to be completed 'shortly' after the 2010 white paper? :unknown

Chis73
Answer to point 1. Previous DefMins did nothing about it.

Answer to point 2. Pilot Training Report went to Cabinet this week for consideration.
 
Top