New Chinese 5th Generatio Aircraft

[keithktam]

Depends on who you ask, the J-20 is currently flying with a WS-10, which I believe is a Chinese version/upgrade? of the AL-31, and the J-31 is flying with the RD-93, a Russian engine in the prototype. Both aircraft are slated for upgrades to Chinese powerplants, one forum poster on our sister forum Sino Defense has suggested that 2003 the third prototype of the J-20, which has yet to be rolled out will fly with the WS-15, which would be news and possibly a step in the right direction. This post is anecdotal as I am not fully conversant with all the engine designations of the RD-93, AL-31, WS-10, nor the in development WS-15.

The Chinese are making significant progress on their engine developement, and the J-10a and J-10b's, J-11a's through J-15's are all flying with Chinese engines, I believe the WS-10s. Hope that clarifies things a bit for you, our Sister Forum Sino Defense is more Sino specific, and there are posters there who are conversant with all the nuances of Chinese aircraft developement. Cheers and Welcome to DT Air Force Brat.

thanks for the details!! might visit your sino defense forum!! is it an American website or Chinese one, if you don't mind me asking??

 

[Air Force Brat]

thanks for the details!! might visit your sino defense forum!! is it an American website or Chinese one, if you don't mind me asking??

I call it our sister forum because as you see it is listed at the top of the page on a header, I believe the mysterious and elusive WEBMASTER, is the owner/proprietor of both forums, so it is an American website, dedicated to Chinese defense issues. There is a very educational atmosphere, and posters from many different nations. Both of these forums are very well moderated and accurate in their approach, the Webmaster striving to allow accurate and informative posts, while minimizing the little mine is better than yours. I enjoy both forums and kept my Air Force Brat, when I visit over there, so it is interesting to see the same posters on both forums. When you do register, there is a new members thread, so read through that and introduce yourself, I look forward to seeing you over there as well. Cheers AFB. End OFF TOPIC.

We have been told that the third prototype, 2003 should be rolled out very soon, and are looking forward to the roll-out and her first flight. I do believe these aircraft are coming along quite nicely, and as gf said there is no lack of motivation, but with the cancelation of F-22 production in Dec of 2011, the frenetic pace after the J-20s first flight has slowed somewhat, but both J-20 prototype 2001 and 2002 have been moved to a more isolated airfiels to conduct further T&E, but every once in a while we get a glimpse of the little sisters. AFB

 

[RobWilliams]

There appears to be some confusion as to if 2003 has already been rolled out

The Aviationist » Has China just rolled out third prototype of J-20 stealth fighter jet?

What could be the third prototype of the Chengdu J-20 fifth generation stealth fighter (to be coded “2003″?), was recently spotted at Chengdu airfield.

New images and videos from China show a mysterious roll-out of a seemingly new prototype (for sure it doesn’t appear to be coded as the existing ones – namely, “2001″ and “2002″).

Still, someone believes the new aircraft is just the second test plane with a furtherly modified radome, used to fit an active electronically scanned array (AESA) set.

Indeed, the “Mighty Dragon” coded 2002 has not flown for a while: a possible sign that it was being modified.

But as you say, AFAIK they have been shifted to more secure airfields so this could explain the lack of media coverage for that second prototype. Looks like a damn smart aircraft in my opinion.

 

[Air Force Brat]

There appears to be some confusion as to if 2003 has already been rolled out

The Aviationist » Has China just rolled out third prototype of J-20 stealth fighter jet?



But as you say, AFAIK they have been shifted to more secure airfields so this could explain the lack of media coverage for that second prototype. Looks like a damn smart aircraft in my opinion.

On Sino Defense, the aircraft with the gray radome was eventually concluded to be 2002 by forum posters, not 2003. A month or so ago, the concesus was that 2002 took off and did not return to Chengdu airfield. In the past week or so someone posted a satelite photo of taken in early October of one J-20 at Ziang, where they do all the T and E work for PLAAF, so 2001 and 2002 are both presumed to be undergoing advanced flight testing there. Security is much tighter at Ziang, so the pictures of the twin prototypes have been few and far between.

What has really surprised me are the numerous amateur photographs and videos by the "wall climbers" as they're known, and even official public relations photos, although they have constructed a new taller wall at Chengdu, there was a generally more relaxed atmosphere there, although of course thats a no-no. In contrast the J-31 was driven through town on the back of a flatbed trailer under a tarp, inviting lots of speculation, looked like an aircraft sales tactic?

I believe you are right Rob, in numerous videos 2001 and 2002 appeared to fly very well, being flown with a bit of pinache, making some obviously tight turns and several aileron rolls at a fairly low altitude for a prototype aircraft, and the entrys and exits are very well coordinated with non of the "dishing out" that often occurs in the entry and exits to these manuevers. With the distant coupled canards providing a great deal of the pitch control in addition to the elevons/flaperons. However, it was noted with interest that the canards are angled to pitch the nose down, in many of the sharp low altitude turns pulling a couple of Gs, leading to the conclusion that the forward fuselage provides a lot of lift, likely to combat mach tuck as she goes supersonic. Dr. Song stated as much in his draft paper,and also that the Fly by Wire was extremely complex. Cheers AFB

 

[keithktam]

I believe you are right Rob, in numerous videos 2001 and 2002 appeared to fly very well, being flown with a bit of pinache, making some obviously tight turns and several aileron rolls at a fairly low altitude for a prototype aircraft, and the entrys and exits are very well coordinated with non of the "dishing out" that often occurs in the entry and exits to these manuevers. With the distant coupled canards providing a great deal of the pitch control in addition to the elevons/flaperons. However, it was noted with interest that the canards are angled to pitch the nose down, in many of the sharp low altitude turns pulling a couple of Gs, leading to the conclusion that the forward fuselage provides a lot of lift, likely to combat mach tuck as she goes supersonic. Dr. Song stated as much in his draft paper,and also that the Fly by Wire was extremely complex. Cheers AFB

obviously you guys are a lot ore professional than i am so i won't pretend , about the performance issue, philosophically, not one aircraft that has perfect flight in modern aviation, when the aircraft is required to have supersonic, stealth and many other capabilities, I mean, it just that you gain something, you lose something, no 10/10, you know what i mean?

 

[gf0012-aust]

obviously you guys are a lot ore professional than i am so i won't pretend , about the performance issue, philosophically, not one aircraft that has perfect flight in modern aviation, when the aircraft is required to have supersonic, stealth and many other capabilities, I mean, it just that you gain something, you lose something, no 10/10, you know what i mean?

Its not about the plane and individual capability - its about what the plane contributes to the fight within the countrys concept of operations - platforms don't need to be silver bullets, they need to make sense and do the job when asked - and nobody expects them to do everything - and no-one lets individual platform types go to the fight on their own.

they are all assisted

 

[Air Force Brat]

On Sino Defense, the aircraft with the gray radome was eventually concluded to be 2002 by forum posters, not 2003. A month or so ago, the concesus was that 2002 took off and did not return to Chengdu airfield. In the past week or so someone posted a satelite photo of taken in early October of one J-20 at Ziang, where they do all the T and E work for PLAAF, so 2001 and 2002 are both presumed to be undergoing advanced flight testing there. Security is much tighter at Ziang, so the pictures of the twin prototypes have been few and far between.

What has really surprised me are the numerous amateur photographs and videos by the "wall climbers" as they're known, and even official public relations photos, although they have constructed a new taller wall at Chengdu, there was a generally more relaxed atmosphere there, although of course thats a no-no. In contrast the J-31 was driven through town on the back of a flatbed trailer under a tarp, inviting lots of speculation, looked like an aircraft sales tactic?

I believe you are right Rob, in numerous videos 2001 and 2002 appeared to fly very well, being flown with a bit of pinache, making some obviously tight turns and several aileron rolls at a fairly low altitude for a prototype aircraft, and the entrys and exits are very well coordinated with non of the "dishing out" that often occurs in the entry and exits to these manuevers. With the distant coupled canards providing a great deal of the pitch control in addition to the elevons/flaperons. However, it was noted with interest that the canards are angled to pitch the nose down, in many of the sharp low altitude turns pulling a couple of Gs, leading to the conclusion that the forward fuselage provides a lot of lift, likely to combat mach tuck as she goes supersonic. Dr. Song stated as much in his draft paper,and also that the Fly by Wire was extremely complex. Cheers AFB

It appears that 2002 has been returned to Chengdu the factory field and has been in flight test there once again, so its difficult to speculate whats up, but I note the Chinese New Year break is swiftly appoaching, she may go in for a powerplant exchange, along with an "annual" type inspection while there? Brat

 

[Air Force Brat]

It appears that 2002 has been returned to Chengdu the factory field and has been in flight test there once again, so its difficult to speculate whats up, but I note the Chinese New Year break is swiftly appoaching, she may go in for a powerplant exchange, along with an "annual" type inspection while there? Brat

2001 May have also returned to Chengdu, it would not surprise me to see all the little sisters and for them to have either new or upgraded engines, it would be interesting to see the Ws-15, but several posters on Sino Defense claim the developement on that engine continues to lag. I am also expecting 2003 to be rolled out shortly after the Chinese New Year break, but we shall see. Cheers AFB

 

[Himal]

.. Ws-15, but several posters on Sino Defense claim the developement on that engine continues to lag... AFB

Do the chinese have single crystal turbine blade technology yet?
That could be the problem, The Indian project team for Kaveri engine has that problem to solve, and so far no one with that capability is willing to share the tech. with them!
BMW P84/5, F1 engine(no turbo) has a better power to weight ration than T700/T6E !!
Imagine what this baby could do boosted.
Perhaps the J20 team should try a hybrid engine approach, i.e.: motorjet with afterburning.
This way complex blade technology could be bypassed altogether.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Do the chinese have single crystal turbine blade technology yet?
That could be the problem, The Indian project team for Kaveri engine has that problem to solve, and so far no one with that capability is willing to share the tech. with them!
BMW P84/5, F1 engine(no turbo) has a better power to weight ration than T700/T6E !!
Imagine what this baby could do boosted.
Perhaps the J20 team should try a hybrid engine approach, i.e.: motorjet with afterburning.
This way complex blade technology could be bypassed altogether.

I'm not fully cognizant of what the hang-ups are, I do know the Ws-15 would upgrade the performance considerably, there is really no definitive answer on whether or not the engine is the Russian Al-31 or the Chinese Ws-10, in either case it is likely that they have been overtemping slightly in order to squeeze as much usable thrust out of them as is practical and accepting the additional wear and tear as they would like to stretch the airframe performance as close to design objectives as possible. In any case welcome to the Forum, our sister forum Sino Defense has much more info on Chinese military equipment, and much more knowledgeable posters than myself. If you would like to introduce yourself there is a thread to do so, I'm not certain as to what exactly your proposing , but these high by-pass turbofans with afterburning are indeed very tolerance intensive as well as requiring a lot of heat to generate the required thrust. Cheers Air Force Brat

 

[Himal]

Hi AFBrat, thanks for the warm welcome, that's the first thing I did - introduce myself, and made it a point to digest the rules properly!!

Well, high thrust density, light weight - won't get there without tight tolerance.
I was just looking at powerplant history as a whole and thought maybe we should re-visit some of those earlier ideas, motorjet for e.g.
Looking at air power mission requirements in general, it's pretty clear no single feature is 'ultimate', i.e.: LO/stealth, speed, payload capacity, etc are all mission dependent.
Maybe a non traditional turbojet approach is less fuel efficient or a tad heavier, but if I can get the power I need cheaply, in quantity, right in my own backyard - why not.

It's a great challenge to make reliable turbine blades to continuosly operate at temperature beyond approx. 1500C, that's simply because the blades are subjected to that condition continuosly.
(Temperatures are higher in ICE, but they are cyclical, so the engine survives!).
Getting a gas/diesel engine to spin compressor and adding fuel would do the job too - that's a motorjet, no turbine downstream.