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New Chinese 5th Generatio Aircraft

Discussion in 'Air Force & Aviation' started by Sampanviking, Jul 20, 2012.

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  1. Sampanviking

    Sampanviking Banned Member

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    Video footage and Photos from China which show a covered Plane on a flat truck being driven; with a strong security escort, from Beijing to Shenyang, gives weight to circulating stories of China developing a small Stealth Fighter.

    The Consensus is that this is the J21/F60 and the plane on the flat bed looks close to pictures of models which have been leaked to the media over the last few years.

    The plane is believed to be a Prototype and is generally described as having features not dissimilar to the F35 although twin engined instead of just one. A common theme of the speculation is that this plane is being developed for the PLAN-AF as a mainstay of the future carrier fleet.

    A typical video clip of the many which have found their way on to the net.

    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIDU7QbKy3w&feature=player_embedded"]China Another New 5th Generation Figther J-21 Spotted 沈飞中型四代机下阎良 - YouTube[/nomedia]

    Two pictures, one of the flat truck and one of the F60 model

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. SpartanSG

    SpartanSG New Member

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    Interesting news.

    I wonder why the PLA has a habit of moving/testing their next generation aircraft in broad daylight in full view of the public and the recordings are allowed to be posted on their video-sharing websites?

    During the grounding of the PLA Navy frigate at Half Moon Shoal last week, when I tried to search for the ship's name ("Dong Guan Hao") in their video-sharing websites, nothing turned up (0 returns).

    So, it seems that a grounded frigate was not allowed to be on Chinese video-sharing websites (censored I suppose?), but next generation aircraft recordings are allowed? How does that work?
     
  3. Sampanviking

    Sampanviking Banned Member

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    They seem to understand the benefits of both viral marketing and plausible deniability.

    There is nothing official about this out there, but because releases came via specific sources (who just knew where to be waiting with cameras ready) the story is out and generally believed to be understood.
     
  4. GR!FF!N

    GR!FF!N New Member

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    it looks more like a L-15 than a J-21.and nobody carries an 5th gen plane in broad daylight where so many people are taking photos.i saw pictures/videos of this same thing taken atleast 3 different places,i saw a video when it was carrying in a truck through highway,and 2 pictures,one of which OP posted.either it is a model of a plane,or a L-15,thats my guess.
     
  5. SpartanSG

    SpartanSG New Member

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    I understand that.

    I'm just highlighting that they seem to be deliberately doing this for the next gen fighters. But, there is no similar viral marketing for their UAVs, missiles, etc (that I know of anyway). Hence, it begs the question why they are doing this for their next gen aircraft? Is it meant to be a red herring to draw attention away from other areas? Or is it meant to show that they are not that far behind (or even on par) with the F-35 program?
     
  6. Air Force Brat

    Air Force Brat Member

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    Well you are exactly right on the marketing angle, and it is all about the money and support, Shenyang is basically self promoting the F-60 or J21, and pulling it around China on the back of a flat bed is a great promo, I might add the tarp lends a great deal of mystique to the project. This always sells, especially if the populace feels that they are in on the project, the F-60 will be the peoples project, the Navy doesn't have a fifth gen fighter at present and the F-60 would fill the bill nicely. In addition it is being marketed as an F-16 type fighter in the old HI/LO fighter dogma, still a viable strategy in spite of the fact that lots of DTers have declared that dogma null and void. So it is being marketed as a potential carrier based 5th gen to the Navy and a cheaper complimentary aircraft to the PLAAFs J-20 which will likely be very expensive and built in somewhat limited number. The prototype is rumored to fly in Aug/Sep? who knows for sure, but one thing is certain, if a prototype does fly, they are dead serious, if a prototype does not fly this is just more smoke and mirrors IMHO?
     
  7. SpartanSG

    SpartanSG New Member

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    This is the People's Republic of China that we are talking about, and Shenyang is 1 of its state-owned enterprise. It hardly needs to promote whatever hardware it is developing since the funding would have been committed to it in the long run. These guys don't run stuff the way the F-35 program runs.

    There is also the issue of security, unless it was a deliberate effort to show progress or as a red herring.

    And as I said earlier, they seem to be doing this for developmental aircraft, but not for UAVs or missiles. So, the question is why are they showing off their development aircraft, but not other types of systems?
     
  8. Cailet

    Cailet New Member

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    Possibly because people sit up and take notice of a jet fighter? Nobody goes to an airshow to watch an RQ-1 buzz slowly overhead, they go to see fighters doing crazy aerobatics. When it comes to capturing the public imagination, fighters and capital ships are what you're going to show off.

    Doing this is kinda like viral marketing. Rather than release a proper promo video or make an announcement,let the enthusiasts do all the work for you. They may not be the people who directly buy your product but the positive buzz they can generate certainly won't hurt if people start grumbling about government spending.

    It's certainly worked in the US. People will happily vote away things like the EPA or the FDA but you try touching their shiny military toys!
     
  9. Air Force Brat

    Air Force Brat Member

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    No and UAVs are at present not up to speed as a viable platform for projecting Air Superiority and missles are well, there missles, kind of like marketing cartridges for your 44 magnum, they're ammo not a capital investment, expendable as opposed to Hardware! While it may be the peoples Republic, the people still have the power, thats the point, its always easier to sell a weapon's system investment when folks have an emotional investment in the benefit of that weapons for protecting them. In China, the bad guys are US, yes that is supposed to be funny, and we have two fifth gen fighter aircraft and the Chinese at present have 0. If you're a Chinese patriot, that is unacceptable and must be rectified, hence the marketing of the F-60, you will notice that it looks like the F---, well, we're not supposed to be doing a comparo, but you get my point. It appears to be an aircraft that could be a carrier based fighter, like the Mig 29K, which would also make a more economical Lo compared to the Mig or the Falcon to compliment the J-20. So I think Cailet is on the right track with his thinking here, the Chinese people need to be sold on buying another fifth gen, when they have just started buying the J-10 and J-15k, and are just getting started with developement/production of the J-20.
     
  10. Sampanviking

    Sampanviking Banned Member

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    Assuming the Chinese public need to be sold! Judging by the response I would say that they have been happy to buy unseen!

    I would go further and say that the target of the buzz is actually overseas for the export market. Shenyang may be State Owned but do not believe that it has no will of its own.
    If the funds for development are not immediately forthcoming simply for the domestic market, then shaking the export tree could make all the difference to the paymasters!
     
  11. SpartanSG

    SpartanSG New Member

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    @ Cailet
    I don't recall any such viral marketing for the J-10 during its development phase. Nor was there any such similar attempt for their new naval hardware, MBTs, AFVs, etc. Which is why all these videos/pics of supposed 5th gen Chinese fighters stick out like a sore thumb. They understand the concept of opsec and guard their military secrets closely (e.g., ASAT capability).

    @ Air Force Brat
    If the people had the power, how did the military get away with MBTs rolling over student protestors in Tiananmen in 1989? If the people had the power, why are there still forced eviction of people from their land so that it can be redeveloped? If the people had power, why are rights activitists (such as Chen Guang Chen who recently went to the US) locked away and not heard from?

    @Sampanviking
    The export market idea is interesting, although it begs the question whether the central leadership will allow such a thing to happen if it possesses technology on par with the best that the PLA has (especially if it is supposed to be 5th gen). If the technology is not comparable to the PLA's best hardware, than it begs the question of who will buy it, although I suppose being affordable has it advantages. But than again, who will buy hardware that the manufacturing country is not using themselves?
     
  12. Wall83

    Wall83 New Member

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  13. Air Force Brat

    Air Force Brat Member

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    These are indeed quite surprising and Shenyang has put forth an outstanding looking aircraft that will definetly make waves on the internet, as some have pointed out, there is no present contract, but it looks like it could be a possible follow on to the J-15s as a carrier based steathy fighter. Theres lots more info on Sino Defense our sister forum, it is buzzing over there.LOL

    And thank you very much for posting the links. There are several of us on here who do find these developements fascinating.
     
  14. jack412

    jack412 Member

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    When the J-20 was first seen, I posted this info, the Taiwanese reported to their Parliament and said, yes china is building a 5th gen fighter, but the j-20 isn't it.
     
  15. Air Force Brat

    Air Force Brat Member

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    You did indeed jack, and I was thinking sure they will, my Daddy told me "not to believe anything you hear and only half of what you see", but you did call this one and it is a beauty. I'm always a little skeptical about all these rumours, but this is definetly a nice looking airplane, hopefully we'll witness a first flight soon.
     
  16. jack412

    jack412 Member

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    Nar I didn't call it, googlefoo did and given it was a Taiwanese report to their Parliament, it was a safe bet
     
  17. Abraham Gubler

    Abraham Gubler Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    This looks like another Chinese 'Purvis Eureka'... There is still no hard evidence to indicate they have anything approaching fifth generation fighter technology in LO and SA. Just because they fly one, two or three aircraft with hard chines and symmetrical angles does not mean anything. Its what's under and in the skin that is important: hence the Purvis Eureka.
     
  18. Air Force Brat

    Air Force Brat Member

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    Agreed, It was some length of time before the Raptor flew, and another 10 years before it reached IOC, this is a pretty fair rendition outwardly although obviously smaller and lighter. After watching this for well over a year with the J-20 it does seem that things have slowed, to date there are only two airworthy J-20s, and its first flight is approaching two years? I continue to believe that powerplants are also an ongoing issue.
     
  19. Abraham Gubler

    Abraham Gubler Defense Professional Verified Defense Pro

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    Flying is no benchmark of importance. Anyone can build an aircraft and fly it. There are hundreds of aerospace enterprises in the world that given $20-50m and a pair of fighter engines will be able to build and fly an aircraft that looks like an F-22.

    But fit it out with the systems required to make it a fifth generation fighter? That’s an entirely different ballpark. The Chinese have done very little to demonstrate they have the capability to develop the SA and LO capability.
     
  20. TrangleC

    TrangleC New Member

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    The reason why the F-22 took so long to develop wasn't so much the stealth aspect of the design, but rather the fact that they basically had to invent the electronics for it because they didn't exist back in the 80 when they started working on the aircraft.

    Now you can buy highly advanced but cheap computer components everywhere. Who designs a machine like that today has it much easier, so it was inevitable that it wouldn't take long for others to build something similar or comparable to the F-22 much faster and for way less money.

    Recently I saw a TV report about the newest German warship and the whole thing runs on "off the shelf" SUN server systems instead of proprietary military electronic hardware. In a few years they just have to invest a few thousand bucks into new servers that can be exchanged within a day or two and will have multiplied the computing capacity of the ship's systems instead of fussing around for 20 years with some clunky military stuff that costs 1000 times what it is worth performance wise because it was developed for one specific application only, as they did it till now.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012