Naval Ship & Submarine Propulsion Systems

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
We have 24 Romeo with the intension of have 8 avalible at all time for the surface fleet, but we won't have all our majors out at once.

Don't know the avalibilty rate for MH-60R but from source I have read over the years it generally is about 18 aircraft for 12 on the flight line, in the case of Hygua it still gives you same sort of capabilty of an ASW frigate with more help support, where as the LHD does not.

Putting 6x airframes on the ASW carrier gives more capabilty to prosecute a suspected submarine which may tip the favour into the surface combatant whilst not losing the capabilty of short changing your frigate force.

Other would have a better understanding than I, that's just from my perspective of course the AsW carrier would cost more it then you have more capabilty at the same time.
over time the phatships will also pick up an ASW role
Definitely, and when it does happen it will work and it will prove my point.

For all now. On escort numbers just how many type26 are the RN meant to be getting? There is the planned Type31 but these may be no more capable than an OPV with extra gear bolted on, and how many multi role OPVs is the RAN meant to be getting, OPVs that could conceivably be designed "for but not with" to use systems surplus from the FFGs and ANZACs. Short of the boomers, SSNs and strike carriers the RAN will compare quite well to the RN, especially as the nine SEA5000 frigates, while superior ASW platforms to the AWDs, are to be capable general purpose shops with a high end air defense system.

Realistically we could upgrade half of the OPVs with ASMD systems, build six SEA5000 frigates and acquire three light carriers (we could even call them through deck cruisers:D) and fit the with common systems to the new frigates, including perhaps surplus ASMD or FFGUP gear. They could initially operate existing ADF helicopter types, then expand into UAVs, UCAVs, tiltrotors etc. or even F-35s.

At the end of the day the carrier issue is more political than operational or doctrinal so will not happen, but that doesn't mean it is not affordable and definitely doesn't mean it couldn't be done if there was the political will.
 

hauritz

Well-Known Member
Sorry why. You still need to escort the carriers ..... and other vessels such as the LHD which may not be in the same task force. Ideally a proportion of the escorts should be ASW capable yet you are proposing less ships, which are less capable with less growth margin and less ASW capability???

With the proliferation of submarines in the region you have lost me there. If anything I would proposing that the OPV design have the ability to tow a tail and deploy AUSV for sub hunting in modular form and the ability to take a basic self defense kit (SeaRAM would be nice but not cheat) in order to supplement the ASW capability of the MFU's

We have a better rotary carriage capacity now than we have ever done in the past with two LHD, an LSD-A, one tanker and all surface combatants being helo capable. This will only improve with the new AOR and the new frigates (all of which are duel helo capable).... have we still only have 24 ASW hunting helicopters. I don't see the benefit in two more helicopter carriers.
More flexibility and future proofing. You would have a ship capable of supporting ASW, amphibious operations, mine warfare, UAVs and so on.

I have always imagined that it would be more efficient to maintain and support helicopter operations from a fully equipped carrier rather than a cramped frigate.

Realistically these would be expensive ships so I don't really see us operating more than one.
 

rockitten

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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We have 24 Romeo with the intension of have 8 avalible at all time for the surface fleet, but we won't have all our majors out at once.

Don't know the avalibilty rate for MH-60R but from source I have read over the years it generally is about 18 aircraft for 12 on the flight line, in the case of Hygua it still gives you same sort of capabilty of an ASW frigate with more help support, where as the LHD does not.

Putting 6x airframes on the ASW carrier gives more capabilty to prosecute a suspected submarine which may tip the favour into the surface combatant whilst not losing the capabilty of short changing your frigate force.

Other would have a better understanding than I, that's just from my perspective of course the AsW carrier would cost more it then you have more capabilty at the same time.
Except ASW helicopter, I am quite enthusiastic about the USN's unmanned ASW ship . Just image a "picket line" of unmanned sub chaser(s) a head of our task force that would off load a lots of ASW duties from our helicopters. The LHD with her C4I facilities, wet dock and workshops, would be an excellent mother ship for them. With a LHD as mother ship, those pickets can also be smaller/cheaper as they do not required to have an extremely long range or top-tier data link.
 

vonnoobie

Well-Known Member
Except ASW helicopter, I am quite enthusiastic about the USN's unmanned ASW ship . Just image a "picket line" of unmanned sub chaser(s) a head of our task force that would off load a lots of ASW duties from our helicopters. The LHD with her C4I facilities, wet dock and workshops, would be an excellent mother ship for them. With a LHD as mother ship, those pickets can also be smaller/cheaper as they do not required to have an extremely long range or top-tier data link.
Actually wouldn't be in the interest of the ADF to use the LHD's as a mother ship nor do I think it would be required. It (Sea Hunter USV) is built to operate in rough conditions independantly with ability to operate in sea state 5 and survive upto sea state 7, an endurance of 70 days along with a range of 10,000nm. Not exactly a short ranged asset that needs a mother ship considering it can travel further then any of our current ships (off the top of my head).

Should test's go ahead I think this will be a big seller as the purchase price is only a fraction of a helo along with daily operating costs by a far smaller fraction then say an MH-60R (Claimed daily cost of $20k for the USV). This asset would actually be a better acquisition for us then any ASW carrier as the acquisition cost's would likely be lower while acquiring an asset that could stay on station for a month compared to a helo whose time on station is measured in hours.

$1 billion+ USD for a single ASW carrier and extra ASW helo's (Current force no where near large enough) along with the extra operating costs or spend that $1b on 50 odd USV's. It's a simplistic approach but gives an idea on where value for money is.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Probably a bit of comparing orange and apple, but, GF, in your POV, if RAN can only afford one option, a single light carrier or taking the 3 Kidds (the extra one as spare), which one is a better option?
The Kidds were the ideal interim replacement for the Perth class DDGs and alternative to the FFGUP. They were vastly more capable than either, were designed to be easily upgraded with a variety of systems available through FMS, including Mk-41 VLS and had already received extensive NTU (New Threat Upgrade). Forget light carriers, these ships would have resulted in a vastly more capable RAN surface force and would actually have cost less than FFGUP.

The argument at the time against them was basically ill informed political bs, i.e. they were too old, and in too poor a condition (NTU anyone), it would require the retirement of two of six FFGs for making reasons (which happened because of FFGUP issues anyway), it would result in a delay to the DDG replacement program damaging Australia's shipbuilding industry (duh). In truth they would have provided greater capability at lower cost for longer than FFGUP, would have removed the need for ANZAC WIP and possibly ANZAC ASMD, Possibly permitted the sale of surpluss FFGs in the early to mid 2000s (two if skimmer numbers were to be maintained at sixteen, four at fourteen and all six if we decided to drop to current force levels). The yards could have been kept busy building either "for but not with" corvettes (OPCs) or OPVs to replace the Fremantle's, full local build of the LHDs, followed by new construction AORs to replace Westralia (no Sirius) then Success, before finally building a different better AWD in an established up to speed yard.

We definitely should have bought them, irrespective of submarines, notional light carriers, LPDs, LPDs , Bill and Ben etc. They would have provided so much capability, at so little cost that the decision not to buy them just demonstrates how defence blind our political class was in the late 90s.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We definitely should have bought them, irrespective of submarines, notional light carriers, LPDs, LPDs , Bill and Ben etc. They would have provided so much capability, at so little cost that the decision not to buy them just demonstrates how defence blind our political class was in the late 90s.
killed off however due to a govt decision not to buy 2nd hand USN gear ever again...

any arguments about their capability meant zip to the GOTD
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
We have 24 Romeo with the intension of have 8 avalible at all time for the surface fleet, but we won't have all our majors out at once.

Don't know the avalibilty rate for MH-60R but from source I have read over the years it generally is about 18 aircraft for 12 on the flight line, in the case of Hygua it still gives you same sort of capabilty of an ASW frigate with more help support, where as the LHD does not.

Putting 6x airframes on the ASW carrier gives more capabilty to prosecute a suspected submarine which may tip the favour into the surface combatant whilst not losing the capabilty of short changing your frigate force.

Other would have a better understanding than I, that's just from my perspective of course the AsW carrier would cost more it then you have more capabilty at the same time.
Sorry this is just rot. By focusing the vast majority of your available air assets on a single specialized platform your restrict your ability to prosecute a submarine to the foot print of that platform and its air assets. Do you imaging for one minute that we will confine ourselves to a single task force or escort function (noting you should not expect both your helo carriers to be available at all times).

The LHD's have a significant aviation capability (and the new frigates will as well) and I do not see the benefit of a specialized helo carrier at the expense of ASW escorts.

The prosecution of submarines is not limited to helicopters with dipping sonar and sonar buoys. Ship based towed array and hull mounted sonar on outlying escorts play a critical role as would accompanying submarines and MPA ahead of the line of advance.

If anything what we need, if we wanted to spend a bit more money, is more helicopters to extend the foot print of outlying escorts and allow weapons to be delivered. These do not necessarily need to be full blown ASW helos but could be weapons carriers with a reasonable sensor kit. I know I am day dreaming but these would quite useful from an ASW and ASuW perspective.

I like the idea of a fixed wing STOLV carrier (noting the sensor capability the F35B would bring to a task force) but understand the need to balance the force.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
killed off however due to a govt decision not to buy 2nd hand USN gear ever again...

any arguments about their capability meant zip to the GOTD
Ironically when the decision was made to look at the surplus USN LSTs the story goes that comprehensive surveys were under taken to determine which hulls were in the best condition and most suitable for acquisition. Unfortunately, by the time the decision to go ahead was made the selected ships had been snapped up and another pair were selected, this time without a survey.

Logic dictates that once the selected vessels were no longer available the entire program should have been reviewed, including a possible return to a new build option for an LPD, LPH, or even a small LHD. At this time that ex USN ships were vetoed by the GOTD, the same people were seriously considering surplus RN submarines and signed up for modernised used USN helicopters.

Just imagine if the amphibious decision had been revisited and the RAN acquired an Ocean or Chakri Naruebet type LPH, San Giorgio class LPD, even Osumi or Endurance types.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Ironically when the decision was made to look at the surplus USN LSTs the story goes that comprehensive surveys were under taken to determine which hulls were in the best condition and most suitable for acquisition. Unfortunately, by the time the decision to go ahead was made the selected ships had been snapped up and another pair were selected, this time without a survey.

Logic dictates that once the selected vessels were no longer available the entire program should have been reviewed, including a possible return to a new build option for an LPD, LPH, or even a small LHD. At this time that ex USN ships were vetoed by the GOTD, the same people were seriously considering surplus RN submarines and signed up for modernised used USN helicopters.

Just imagine if the amphibious decision had been revisited and the RAN acquired an Ocean or Chakri Naruebet type LPH, San Giorgio class LPD, even Osumi or Endurance types.

unfortunately you would have to bring the East Timor crisis forward to trigger the lessons learnt and the absolute goodwill that Cosgrove had with the GOTD, the fact that all three services were united on the need for phatships etc etc.....

ah, my kingdom for a temporal flux
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Sorry this is just rot. By focusing the vast majority of your available air assets on a single specialized platform your restrict your ability to prosecute a submarine to the foot print of that platform and its air assets. Do you imaging for one minute that we will confine ourselves to a single task force or escort function (noting you should not expect both your helo carriers to be available at all times).

The LHD's have a significant aviation capability (and the new frigates will as well) and I do not see the benefit of a specialized helo carrier at the expense of ASW escorts.

The prosecution of submarines is not limited to helicopters with dipping sonar and sonar buoys. Ship based towed array and hull mounted sonar on outlying escorts play a critical role as would accompanying submarines and MPA ahead of the line of advance.

If anything what we need, if we wanted to spend a bit more money, is more helicopters to extend the foot print of outlying escorts and allow weapons to be delivered. These do not necessarily need to be full blown ASW helos but could be weapons carriers with a reasonable sensor kit. I know I am day dreaming but these would quite useful from an ASW and ASuW perspective.

I like the idea of a fixed wing STOLV carrier (noting the sensor capability the F35B would bring to a task force) but understand the need to balance the force.
I think whats also happening now is that there is a discovery of a whole pile of capabilities that are now treating ASW like a mini air land sea battle construct... whereas before it was more or less platform and semi-system focused
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I think whats also happening now is that there is a discovery of a whole pile of capabilities that are now treating ASW like a mini air land sea battle construct... whereas before it was more or less platform and semi-system focused
I believe that's a revisionist view of ASW adhered to after the demise of CVS 21. During the 60's and 70's when the whole RAN was focused on "hunter killer" ASW TG it was a mini air/sea/subsea battle construct although limited by rather more rudimentary sensors and communications.
That loss, Melbourne, had a deep and enduring effect on RAN planning and doctrine and those who got out, like me, because of the loss, saw it coming.

The era of a single unit frigate navy had begun!
 

t68

Well-Known Member
*
Sorry this is just rot. By focusing *the vast majority of your available air assets on a single specialized platform your restrict your ability to prosecute a submarine to the foot print of that platform and its air assets. Do you imaging for one minute that we will confine ourselves to a single task force or escort function (noting you should not expect both your helo carriers to be available at all times).*

**The LHD's have a significant aviation capability (and the new frigates will as well) and I do not see the benefit of a specialized helo carrier at the expense of ASW escorts.
*
The prosecution of submarines is not limited to helicopters with dipping sonar and sonar buoys. Ship based towed array and hull mounted sonar on outlying escorts play a critical role as would accompanying submarines and MPA ahead of the line of advance. * *
*
If anything what we need, if we wanted to spend a bit more money, is more helicopters to extend the foot print of outlying escorts and allow weapons to be delivered. These do not necessarily need to be full blown ASW helos but could be weapons carriers with a reasonable sensor kit. I know I am day dreaming but these would quite useful from an ASW and ASuW perspective.*
*
I like the idea of a fixed wing STOLV carrier (noting the sensor capability the F35B would bring to a task force) but understand *the need to balance the force.

*
The ASW carrier is not going to work in isolation, and I'm not advocating replacing all our ASW frigate capability with a light ASW carrier, personally I think Volk is on the right track, I'm questioning do we need 9x ASW frigates?

Each escort will most likely have only have 1x MH-60R within flying distance of the main body, by having an ASW carrier we have options of either bring more hulls towards a possible contact along with its own helicopter or we can despatch more aircraft off the carrier by either relieving the helicopter insitu or extend operations by refueling from the frigate. GF has said on more than one occasion over the years the more helicopter in to prosecute a target the harder it is for the submarine to evade the screen, also depending on the level of capability with the ASW carrier we also have not lost any of the offensive/defensive capability of losing a frigate hull, with it's capacity for a larger hull mounted sonar plus MK41VLS plus multiple helicopters*

HMAS Melbourne (R21) was primary a ASW carrier it add or lost escorts depending on the threat level, and the mix of aircraft on deck was predicated on its tasking at the time,it would not be much different with a new light ASW carrier
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I believe that's a revisionist view of ASW adhered to after the demise of CVS 21. During the 60's and 70's when the whole RAN was focused on "hunter killer" ASW TG it was a mini air/sea/subsea battle construct although limited by rather more rudimentary sensors and communications.
That loss, Melbourne, had a deep and enduring effect on RAN planning and doctrine and those who got out, like me, because of the loss, saw it coming.

The era of a single unit frigate navy had begun!
certainly a redux, but with a while pile of C4ISR improvents across all the contributors
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
killed off however due to a govt decision not to buy 2nd hand USN gear ever again...

any arguments about their capability meant zip to the GOTD
unfortunately you would have to bring the East Timor crisis forward to trigger the lessons learnt and the absolute goodwill that Cosgrove had with the GOTD, the fact that all three services were united on the need for phatships etc etc.....

ah, my kingdom for a temporal flux
That's the thing many forget, the Howard government, when elected, was more like the first term, anti defence, fiscal conservative, economic rationalist, slash and burn type that did so much damage to UK defence in the first terms of Thatcher and Cameron. Timor was the wake up call, that as bad as some of Labors initiatives were, simply scraping them without replacement (or even a plan to replace them), let alone any strategic direction on what the ADF was expected to do and how, was worse than leaving them in place.

Their defence policy was basically scrap and demonise as much of the previous governments initiatives and acquisitions as possible for political gain, cut the "tail", "sharpen the teeth" and privatise as many military functions as possible without actually assessing the value for money of doing so, let alone to operational effect it would have. Labor cuts, instead of being reversed were added too and others made, the ready reserve was scrapped with minimal improvement to the regular forces and worsening conditions for the already hobbled general reserve. The first defence minister, instead of doing his job was more interested in providing troops on leave to break strikes and embarrassing serving Warrant Officers on ceremonial duty because he thought they looked too fat to be shown on TV. Sadly the next two individuals on the role were even worse, things not improving until Hill and then only Nelson really having a handle on the portfolio.

While Timor was the wake up call that resulted in the DWP, it was 9/11 that spurred a real increase in defence spending as national security became politically fashionable. It was from this point Howard became (as Defmin Hill referred to him) "The Prime Minister of Defence" and he started promising armoured brigades we didn't have and PM&C started over ruling the services, DMO etc. on defence procurement decisions. Lots of money was spent, but not necessarily spent well.

Sorry for the rant but I was in the reserves at the time and with my hard earned trade and tertiary qualifications in hand was looking to go full time. Within three years I was inactive and have not served since, I expected so much from them and was bitterly disappointed at the pointless, ideologically driven stupidity they exhibited. Things got so much worse before they got better, and at a time when they inherited a vibrant, world standard, defence industry, the real damage imo was in "cutting the tail" which stripped the ADF of so much institutional knowledge and organic capability we are still feeling it today in operational deficiencies caused by lack of technical acumen.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
*

GF has said on more than one occasion over the years the more helicopter in to prosecute a target the harder it is for the submarine to evade the screen, also depending on the level of capability with the ASW carrier we also have not lost any of the offensive/defensive capability of losing a frigate hull, with it's capacity for a larger hull mounted sonar plus MK41VLS plus multiple helicopters*
I should add some clarity to this.

ASW is an onion layer where different capabilities bring different pressure to bear. all of them need to work in concert however, but a sub being chased by a specialised skimmer, getting mobbed by rotarys and stalked by a blue sub is going to have a hard time on the job. then think about the fact that there could be a P8 sitting upstairs with a HAAWC

all of these assets are able to talk to each other, sometimes on common TADL and other comms much more discretely and freely than they ever were in the past
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
all of these assets are able to talk to each other, sometimes on common TADL and other comms much more discretely and freely than they ever were in the past
Chalk and cheese c.f. days of yore. Prosecuting a contact through two or three air controllers, f/w and rotary, receiving internal circuit info from sonar and possibly ewo, coordinating a surface plot and raw radar on an analogue table all the while using two or three UHF circuits and one HF circuit, all insecure and possibly hobbled by the emcon plan and then operating without any land intelligence.
That's the steam driven way of the past it's no wonder the boats had a field day.
 

Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
I believe that's a revisionist view of ASW adhered to after the demise of CVS 21. During the 60's and 70's when the whole RAN was focused on "hunter killer" ASW TG it was a mini air/sea/subsea battle construct although limited by rather more rudimentary sensors and communications.
That loss, Melbourne, had a deep and enduring effect on RAN planning and doctrine and those who got out, like me, because of the loss, saw it coming.

The era of a single unit frigate navy had begun!
Thanks I was waiting for you to chip in as I am reluctant to say too much knowing that I could easily screw up my second hand and received knowledge, not having lived it as you have.

Please add or correct as required.

ASW is extremely complex and difficult and requires far more than a frigate with a towed array carrying a single helicopter with a dipping sonar. In fact the ideal is multiple helicopters, working in concert, prosecuting each contact, something a single frigate with a single helicopter can not do. The primary idea behind the Hyugas and Izumos is to simultaneously launch several helicopters to prosecute each contact and while the QEs with be escorted by Type 23s, and eventually 26s, their organic F-35B, Merlin HM2 and ASaC5 will contribute far more to task force defence and strike power than any number of escorts.

In ASW each helicopter with a dipping sonar on station was seen as a substitute for an ASW escort in the screen, so basically roughly each three helicopters in the TF (whether flown from the carrier, or an escort) was equivalent to a single purpose ASW escort. What this means is a simple TF of a carrier with several ASW helicopters (not to forget its command and control facilities), an AWD and one or two ASW oriented GP frigates, would be far more effective in ASW than an AWD and twice, or even three times as many frigates (at greater cost than the carrier).

In the future it is foreseeable that long range ASW and surveillance assets, whether manned or unmanned, able to replace some or even all of the capabilities once provided by the likes of the Tracker Viking and possibly even Hawkeye, will be developed. These assets will likely be capable of operating from carriers but extremely unlikely, even if they are STOVL or VSTOL, of flying from a frigate, meaning you could have the entire RAN skimmer force at sea and still have less coverage than a small TF of and AWD, one or two frigates and a small carrier.

What needs to be worked out is how many frigates are needed for independent operations outside of task forces. This will obviously be less than in the past because the OPVs will be capable of replacing them on their border protection taskings and possibly even on some of their global deployments, i.e. lower threat counter piracy and UN sanction policing. Then it will need to be determined how many will be needed to screen a carrier in conjunction with each AWD, the excess number then becomes the amount of money available for the carrier / carriers and any required extra helicopters.
 

ASSAIL

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Thanks I was waiting for you to chip in as I am reluctant to say too much knowing that I could easily screw up my second hand and received knowledge, not having lived it as you have.

Please add or correct as required
Whilst I would love to see an Hyuga style platform I cannot see it viable in our situation. I agree that the focus has shifted back to ASW however all the other tasks continue and to forgo those extra frigates would denude the force.

The latest direction of doctrine within the USN and growing within the RAN is Distributed Lethality (there's a good paper in the October Proceedings) and this leads to many more SAG type operations but still requiring the HVU to be protected. This is not cheap on escort numbers and we have barely enough whereas the RN will be in crisis as this doctrine permeates western navies.

In a situation where we had say 4 DDGs and 12 frigates we could easily forgo a couple,of those frigate and acquire a DDH large and that would be our optimal orbit but within the restraints we have it becomes less viable.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The latest direction of doctrine within the USN and growing within the RAN is Distributed Lethality (there's a good paper in the October Proceedings) and this leads to many more SAG type operations but still requiring the HVU to be protected. This is not cheap on escort numbers and we have barely enough whereas the RN will be in crisis as this doctrine permeates western navies.
and RAN is dancing very close on the new developments. Quite a few modern navies are going to be up for rebuilds as the current force structures don't meet the needs..

ironically small navies like RAN can be more agile
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Norway has confirmed HDW has won the order for 4 new submarines, based on the 212, delivery between 2025 & 2028, I heard this on the roadio this morning, sorry no link.
 
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