JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

[AegisFC]

I was curious as weather the nation that built this airplane (china & pakistan) had purposely copied the F-16, basically because they could not get the F-16 them selves, noting that Pakistan does have the F-16 and it could be a one off copy.

You did not ask that, you just stated that it just looked like an F-16.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

You did not ask that, you just stated that it just looked like an F-16.

Back on topic right now after this but I was waiting for someone to fill me in about the info from the Top down it looks almost identical to the F-16 but sides and front does not. Apparently china has not made a decision to buy yet and Pakistan is waiting for 250, currently a 50 plane order is proceeding, so i have heard.

 

[tphuang]

Back on topic right now after this but I was waiting for someone to fill me in about the info from the Top down it looks almost identical to the F-16 but sides and front does not. Apparently china has not made a decision to buy yet and Pakistan is waiting for 250, currently a 50 plane order is proceeding, so i have heard.

you don't need to make ridiculous comments like JF-17 looks identical to F-16 from top down. Does it have the same type of LEX or vertical stabilizer or anything else?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Back on topic right now after this but I was waiting for someone to fill me in about the info from the Top down it looks almost identical to the F-16 but sides and front does not. Apparently china has not made a decision to buy yet and Pakistan is waiting for 250, currently a 50 plane order is proceeding, so i have heard.

It looks more like an F-20 tigershark to me. But that doesnt inferr that its a copy. There may have been design influences drawn from the F-16 but its hardly a copy.

 

[crobato]

The wing aspect and design, as well as the elevators, seem very similar to the F-16's in aspect and from. But the LERX is not. The LERX of the F-16 has a concave form, but the LERX on the JF-17 has a convex form, closer to the MiG-29's and F-18's. Given the DSI intake and specially positioned vortice generators, i would say the JF-17 has its own unique system of vortice management from the other aircraft mentioned.

The long inspiration for the JF-17 is the Super 7 project hatched by Grumman for the Chinese in the eighties. The idea is a kind of modernized J-7 mated to an F-5E Tiger II like nose and frontal fuselage. Tiananmmen Square put an end to that, but the idea remained and morphed, more directly into what you see as the FTC-2000 aka JL-9 trainer today. Think of this plane in a single seat mode.

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/trainer/jl9.asp

What remained of the direct lineage of Super 7 was morphed completely into a new plane as Pakistan kept upgrading the requirements. MiG's influence may also have been felt from its Project 33, since MiG owned Klimov which provided the engine for the JF-17, giving MiG a strong vested interest for the project to succeed.

 

[SABRE]

I was curious as weather the nation that built this airplane (china & pakistan) had purposely copied the F-16, basically because they could not get the F-16 them selves, noting that Pakistan does have the F-16 and it could be a one off copy.

Well; next time put it in a question format so we can address your curiosity. Otherwise it leaves us in a curiosity.

I would say that some inspiration was/has been drawn from F-16, especially since the one of the country (Pakistan) involved has F-16s as its mainstay front line fighter & in addition the senior PAC engineers/scientists who were/are involved in JF-17 project for sure have worked on F-16s.

But the final conclusion is that it is not a copy of F-16 (just inspired) & the JF-17s are more superior to current Pakistani F-16A/B Block 15s.

It looks more like an F-20 tigershark to me. But that doesnt inferr that its a copy. There may have been design influences drawn from the F-16 but its hardly a copy.

It did look F-20 Tigershark initially, before the changes were made in PT-3. But there is something common between the two, or at least was common & that is Northrop Grumman.

The origins of JF-17/FC-1 are traced from Super-7 project which traces its origins from Sabre-II project. Sabre-II project was undertaken to upgrade PLAAF F-7 to a next generation level during 1980s. The next generation level than would be the F-16 & Northrop's own F-20 Tigershark. Northrop dropped out because of the Tinamen Square events. In early 1990s CAC/China invited Pakistan/PAC/PAF to join the project - which than turned into FC-1/JF-17 & brought in some aspirations from F-16 along with F-20. But that is all what is there - just aspirations.

The aircraft also has DSI inlets, now we cant say its a copy of F-35 can we?

 

[Atilla [TR]]

Ok so I have heard that Azerbaijan may buy 24-26 new Jf-17's. And I believe this airplane is capable of carrying the AIm 9X with HMC? Also does Northrop have anything to do with the current plane at the moment, other then having the origins from Northrop projects?

 

[kay_man]

Well; next time put it in a question format so we can address your curiosity. Otherwise it leaves us in a curiosity.

I would say that some inspiration was/has been drawn from F-16, especially since the one of the country (Pakistan) involved has F-16s as its mainstay front line fighter & in addition the senior PAC engineers/scientists who were/are involved in JF-17 project for sure have worked on F-16s.

But the final conclusion is that it is not a copy of F-16 (just inspired) & the JF-17s are more superior to current Pakistani F-16A/B Block 15s.



It did look F-20 Tigershark initially, before the changes were made in PT-3. But there is something common between the two, or at least was common & that is Northrop Grumman.

The origins of JF-17/FC-1 are traced from Super-7 project which traces its origins from Sabre-II project. Sabre-II project was undertaken to upgrade PLAAF F-7 to a next generation level during 1980s. The next generation level than would be the F-16 & Northrop's own F-20 Tigershark. Northrop dropped out because of the Tinamen Square events. In early 1990s CAC/China invited Pakistan/PAC/PAF to join the project - which than turned into FC-1/JF-17 & brought in some aspirations from F-16 along with F-20. But that is all what is there - just aspirations.

The aircraft also has DSI inlets, now we cant say its a copy of F-35 can we?

With all due respect...the super -7 project was based on MIg-33 (russian design for sinle engined version of mig29 ) which was abandoned by russians , the chinese bought this design and started work on it with american help...but later america left the project .


the mig-33 is an all aluminium fighter derived from mostly mig-21 fishbed and has similar characteristics.

i have afew questions though,

i hav read on other forums tht that the radome of the fc-1 is small and limits the improvements on radars......is this true or some ones imagination ??

also how does the aim-9 compare with sd-10 ?which is better ?


have the smokey engine trouble been solved on rd33 ?? does it affect the performance of the aircraft ?

 

[SABRE]

With all due respect...the super -7 project was based on MIg-33 (russian design for sinle engined version of mig29 ) which was abandoned by russians , the chinese bought this design and started work on it with american help...but later america left the project .


the mig-33 is an all aluminium fighter derived from mostly mig-21 fishbed and has similar characteristics.

See this thread as well.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7703

There isnt much information from CAC involving MiG-33, though the MiG did offer its service for the project some where in between.

also how does the aim-9 compare with sd-10 ?which is better ?

AIM-9 is a WVRAAM, SD-10 is BVRAAM.

have the smokey engine trouble been solved on rd33 ?? does it affect the performance of the aircraft ?

Smoke has been reduced from RD-93 but is still there (the last I saw). Doesn't seem to effect the performance. Besides WS-13 is to replace the RD-93 so all concerns and concentration is on that.

 

[windscorpion]

How much of the JF-17 do Pakistan make themselves, will the earthquake damage to Chengdu AIC's factory affect them any? I have read that the factory has been knocked out for some time.

 

[SABRE]

How much of the JF-17 do Pakistan make themselves, will the earthquake damage to Chengdu AIC's factory affect them any? I have read that the factory has been knocked out for some time.

I have been reading stuff too. So I know as much as you do. No contacts in China. & all my Chinese friend live outside the country

 

[tphuang]

I have been reading stuff too. So I know as much as you do. No contacts in China. & all my Chinese friend live outside the country

CAC has resumed full operation, the earthquake didn't really affect it. It affected the factory that was producing blades for gas turbine though.

 

[niteshkjain]

Smoke has been reduced from RD-93 but is still there (the last I saw). Doesn't seem to effect the performance. Besides WS-13 is to replace the RD-93 so all concerns and concentration is on that.

Just curiosity, has there any time table decided for replacing the RD-93 with WS-13. Is this engine will be produced china only or pakistan is also getting the ToT for engines and production facilities.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

Just curiosity, has there any time table decided for replacing the RD-93 with WS-13. Is this engine will be produced china only or pakistan is also getting the ToT for engines and production facilities.

Most likely the same setup as the setup of F-7 engines. (Pakistani F-7s use two different engines)

Some parts of the engine will be produced in Pakistan and the major ones on JIT.

 

[SABRE]

Just curiosity, has there any time table decided for replacing the RD-93 with WS-13. Is this engine will be produced china only or pakistan is also getting the ToT for engines and production facilities.

I can only make assumptions. At the moment there is no engine factory at the PAC, so I don't think engines would be produced in Pakistan.

 

[tphuang]

Most likely the same setup as the setup of F-7 engines. (Pakistani F-7s use two different engines)

Some parts of the engine will be produced in Pakistan and the major ones on JIT.

there is no evidence of this happening at all. We don't even know if JF-17 will be using WS-12 or WS-13 in the future.

 

[niteshkjain]

there is no evidence of this happening at all. We don't even know if JF-17 will be using WS-12 or WS-13 in the future.

Are these engines are cleared for operations? If not, what is the timeline expected for them to be operational.

 

[BilalK]

Are these engines are cleared for operations? If not, what is the timeline expected for them to be operational.

Whether it is WS-13 or WS-12 the JF-17 will require airframe modifications anyways. I think the PAF will change engines in its batch-II variant that should roll out 2011-2012...whatever is available then would be chosen I guess.

 

[niteshkjain]

Whether it is WS-13 or WS-12 the JF-17 will require airframe modifications anyways. I think the PAF will change engines in its batch-II variant that should roll out 2011-2012...whatever is available then would be chosen I guess.

Well airframe modifications is a tricky word how much is needed how it affects the aircraft performance. Whether it will meet the requirements or not. So putting a 2011-12012 date is too ambitious i think

 

[old faithful]

Any one have any real number on how many JF17,s have been delivered to PAF to date. Last I've heard was 47 - 1 (crashed).
Third Sqn was due earlier this year. Any reliable news?