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JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 / Super-7 Discussions

Discussion in 'Air Force & Aviation' started by kilo_4que, Apr 2, 2003.

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  1. kilo_4que

    kilo_4que New Member

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    What do you guys think. The following spec of the FC-1 was published many a time. Do you guys think that this spec has been deliberately published as it is, so that other nations mainly rivals to Pakistan and China feel no threat so would not interfere. Hence the genuine spec has not been published until the fighter goes into production or even test phase.

    Well what are your thoughts, here is the spec published:

    Crew: One
    Wingspan: 9.00 m
    Length: 14 m
    Height: 5.10 m
    Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
    Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
    Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
    Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
    Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
    Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
    +G Limit: 8.5

    I believe the fighter would be able to build up much more velocity than mach 1.6 (some reports say, it can produce speeds of upto mach 1.7 and 1.8)
     
  2. orange_hawk

    orange_hawk New Member

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    kilo
    u may be right in some sense,

    that is, it is logical for any defence establishment to hide the real info and the open source info just gives an idea.

    for example,

    US designed their LA class attack subs to detect the sound signature of the russian akula.

    the sound signature was derived from months of stalking akula in icy artic waters.

    But even then their data was proved wrong since tha russians had deliberatly made akula to have a higher noise level by inducing noise, and they had the option to turn off the induced noise, so in war time, LA class would have no clue, what happened to the noise. and would be attacked by akulas.

    This info is from a documentary on Discovery channel.

    so it is highly possible that the FC-1 may be more capable than that claimed in the open-source.

    It will be a surprise for the enemy in the battlefield, if has failed to out-think his adversary.
     
  3. Bharat_R

    Bharat_R New Member

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    The FC-1 is at the same level of an upgraded Mig 21, the sources are www.fas.org. Mig-33 is basically an interceptor like the Mig 21, and it was rejected by the Chinese and is called the J-9. Therefore its inferior to the J-10 which is inferior to the LCA.

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/fc-1.htm

    Also if you check LCA it says that it would equal the Eurofighter which is better then the Rafale or F-16. On Bharat-Rakshak it says that the Kaveri engine that is used for the LCA will have a second variant which would jhave TVC, and supercruise. Check: Bharat-rakshak.com

    The Iranian fighter is another fighter that would be superior to the FC-1, which I heard would host Indian software which is as good as the Americans. Since India got the FBW from the US, when they collaborated on the LCA project and this is equal to the F-16XL. If the Iranian fighter carries Indian software it would be more superior then the FC-1. Check this out...

    Azarakhsh

    http://globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/azarakhsh.htm
     
  4. ullu

    ullu New Member

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    Yes people, a project which started 35 years ago and still not complete is better than f16, f18, f22, and euro fighter. LCA is the top fighter at this time. :rolling

    Since Fc1 involves Pakistan and china, its inferior and backward... and can never match the great LCA... Pakistan getting f22 would be rendered useless against it. :laugh :lolol :lolol
     
  5. kilo_4que

    kilo_4que New Member

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    Listen my friend. To post such a comment could lead harmful. U need to back ure post with some sufficient evidence as to why the LCA is better. I mean the FC-1 hasnt even been flight tested yet so how can u make such a predicament. Furthermore, my friend Bharat, yes fas does convey such a spec for the FC-1 but the whole point we are making is that the true spec of the fighter may be more deadly towards its enemy than what has been published. I mean only them who are making the fighter know what its capabilities are. Its like people guessing how many coins I have in ma pocket. Some would say 3, other 5, others may even say 1. But only I know what I have in my pocket.

    Regarding the LCA. I think, once in full flow, and complete production, it would act as a predominate aggressor for the IAF alongside the mig-23s. The sukois would be more like the front line fighters with the backing of the LCA.
     
  6. Bharat_R

    Bharat_R New Member

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    Listen up Kilo, the FC-1 would be like the Mig-33, and it was designated J-9 by the Chinese which means its inferior to the J-10 plus the Mig 29 is superior to the Mig-33. You can do some research on the Mig-33, which is a complete failure by the Russians. This fighter won't be better then PAF F-16, I believe Pakistan should purchase couple squadrons of J-10s.

    Here's a site on the LCA...

    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/lca.htm

    Also note that LCA is a multirole fighter, it could be used for anything and note that it has a 3000kg payload with 7+1 hardpoint plus is the world smallest fighter in the world. A Rafale/Eurofighter/Su-30MKI have 12 hardpoints and they are far heavier (30,000 kg), the LCA has a max weight of 12500kg. The LCA is a deadly fighter, and could be armed with the A-11, Indian Astra or A-10, and it would reck havoc anywhere especially with its small Radar cross section.

    -----
    BTW the F-22 is a failure, if you check the links below...

    F-22 Failure Site 1

    The F-22 is a failure but it accomplished many breakthroughs like supercruise, stealth, etc which would go on to the JSF. Also the F-22 cost 150 million, that's too expensive even for the US.

    -----

    The Eurofighter is also in the situation, one crashed already, and the Europeans are gonna purchase the JSF. The Rafales of France is pretty good fighter but they would need to make another one or an improvement so it could match to fifth gen fighters. It's costs rised to 60 million, which was WAY off from its planned price.
     
  7. kilo_4que

    kilo_4que New Member

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    First of all Bharat, you start your post of very direct towards me, which i dont mind to be honest.

    To the point, why is it that you rely so much on fas. Use other sources too such as Scramble, Janes etc. FAS only provides good info regarding american fighters not many other international fighters.

    Btw, where has it stated that the Mig-29 is more superior than the Mig-33.

    If you are wanting to compare the LCA to Pakistans FC-1 then you cant really compare much as the LCA has been flight tested but the FC-1 hasnt. Also the FC-1 is supposed to be a multi role day night fighter. So there is hardly in comparison. Until it isnt flight tested, no one could say either is better than the other.
     
  8. wewe1

    wewe1 New Member

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    can anyone post the electronics specs of FC-1, including radar, etc?
     
  9. Destroyer

    Destroyer New Member

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    FC-1

    Here's basically everything I could find about the FC-1. I think it will be a great asset for the Pakistan Air Force, as we get closer and closer to June when the first flight is planned to take place. Inshallah


    FC-1/Super-7 Multirole Fighter Aircraft

    NAME:
    Westernised/Manufacturer name: FC-1
    Export name: Super-7

    TYPE: Single-seat, single-engine multirole fighter aircraft derived from the Chengdu J-7 (F-7)

    MANUFACTURER: China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC), Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAC), Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company (PAIC)

    PROGRAMME

    In 1986 China signed a $550 million agreement with Grumman to modernize its J-7 fighter under the so-called "Super-7" upgrade, but this agreement was cancelled in early 1990, in the wake of the cooling of political relations with the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project. As a substitute for the original Super-7, China is developing the FC-1 (Fighter China-1) lightweight multipurpose fighter based on the design for the Super-7, with assistant from the Russians.

    Meanwhile, a full-scale mockup of the FC-1 has been completed by CAC. According to the latest reports, the first prototype of FC-1 is currently under construction and expected to first fly in early 2003. The first FC-1 will be fitted with an Israeli Elta-2032 radar for fire-control test, and a Russian RD-93 turbofan engine. Chengdu has obtained two Elta-2032 systems and four RD-93 engines for initial evaluation and tests.

    The FC-1/Super-7 is being developed with a total investment in excess of $150 million, including $75 million from Pakistan, with the rest investment from CATIC. The FC-1/Super-7 is mainly for export to replace the 120 F-7M/P fighters currently in service in the Pakistani Air Force, though it is possible that the Chinese Air Force will use this aircraft as well. Chengdu is co-operating with and Russia's Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group (MASPG) in the development of the FC-1. Israel and several European countries are being considered as suppliers for the plane's avionics.

    According to the latest reports by the Chinese official media, the FC-7/Super-7 has entered initial production in September 2002. The first flight is expected to take place in 2003.

    DESIGN FEATURES

    Initially it was anticipated that the FC-1 would be a high-performance, low-cost fighter plane to replace outdated F-5s and MiG-21s in many third-world air forces. But with the participation of MASPG, the Russians are using the FC-1 as a continuation of the MiG-33 (R33) programme developed in the 1980s. Like the MiG-33, the FC-1 uses the RD-93 turbofans, though the FC-1 features air inlets on the lateral sides of the fuselage rather than the ventral inlets of the MiG-33. With Russian technical assistance the redesigned FC-1 has improved climb out performance and steering capabilities along with a stronger fuselage.

    However, the most apparent modifications to the MiG-33 design is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment to the added tail edgings, providing aerial manoeuvrability that is claimed to match that of the U.S. F-16. These improvements in performance have affected the programme's costs, and if the final production order is fewer than 300 aircraft the unit price will rise from the original $10 million to $15 million.

    AVIONICS: Few venders are competing for supplying avionics to the FC-1/Super-7. Apart from Israeli Elta-2032, Italian FIAR company also revealed its Grifo S-7 fire-control radar on Singapore Asian Aerospace 2002. The Grifo S-7 is specially designed for the FC-1/Super-7, with 25 working modes and a non-break-down time of 200 hours. The radar is capable of look-down, shoot-down, as well as for ground strike, but without multi-targets tracing and attacking capabilities.

    According to reports, the PLA Air Force variant of the FC-1 will certainly not be fitted with Elta-2032, therefore Russian Phazotron Kopyo radar and Italian Grifo are options available.

    To achieve better aerodynamic performance, the FC-1/Super-7 is also equipped with a digital dual fly-by-wire (FBW).

    ENGINE: One RD-93 turbofans, rated 49.4 kN dry or 81.4 kN with afterburning.

    WEAPONS: Seven stores stations, one under the fuselage and six under the wing, up to 3,800 kg. Air-to-air missiles include: AIM-9P, PL-9, Magic-2 short-range AAMs; AIM-7E, Aspide.


    SPECIFICATIONS

    Crew: One
    Wingspan: 9.00 m
    Length: 14 m
    Height: 5.10 m
    Weight: Empty 6,321 kg; Normal take-off: 9,100 kg; Max take-off 12,700 kg; Max weapon payload 3,800 kg
    Maximum Weapon Load: 3,600 kg
    Maximum Speed: Mach 1.6
    Range: Ferry range 3,000 km; Operational Radius 1,352 km
    Service Ceiling: 16,500 m
    Maximum Climb Rate: N/A
    +G Limit: 8.5


    Info courtesy of www.sinodefence.com
     
  10. NARC

    NARC New Member

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    Excellent info destroyer,

    I think the FC-1 although a 3rd/4th gen type fighter, would probably meet the needs of PAF. Its day/night multirole, also nuclear caperble (Deleted), can unleash an array of weaponry
    but i still think pak needs a fleet of attacking frontline fighters that are at their best now, like J-10 or raphale.

    Bharat_R

    i think this dude has been brain washed, every spec ive seen shows the j-10 slapping the LCA. mite i add , stands for light combat aircraft, which means it will be limited to what it does.

    As you can see that quote u made is totally baseless, its like saying Man u beat Liverpool, But Man city beat Man u, that means Man city is better than liverpool and man u..........wtf, check out some other sites instead of fas, which is generally biased against chinise tech.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2007
  11. kilo_4que

    kilo_4que New Member

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    Hey, regardin wot NARC has posted.

    Hoo knows if the FC-1, once flight tested is not superior to the LCA.

    To be honest, I wont be surprised, specially now that the LCA has been flight tested, the pakistanis and chinese would aim to improve its capability surpassing that of the LCA
     
  12. mmalam

    mmalam New Member

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    Looks like .. Bharat_R never saw a picture of FC-1. That is the only reason i could think of why he is comparing FC-1 with Mig -21. :)
     
  13. Destroyer

    Destroyer New Member

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    LOL

    I can't believe he actually compared a Mig-21 and a FC-1. Bharat man the Mig-21 is from the 1950s and that airframe is just horrible, The F-7Pg's in PAF service have far more advanced avionics on board than the Indian Mig-21s.
     
  14. mmalam

    mmalam New Member

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    Re: LOL

    Now watch as he comes back in denial , and talks about the UPG program of that damn flying coffin , when it will be able to do BVR.
     
  15. Hamza_K

    Hamza_K New Member

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    If this FC-1 doesn't come soon, I am going to go insane. I am sick and tired of hearing this name over and over again. This plane better be as good or better than F-16 or I don't see any point in spending such an amount of cash.

    This is a JF_17 thread and if you sick of it, stop visiting it
    PS
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 11, 2007
  16. kilo_4que

    kilo_4que New Member

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    Hamza, this project is not a flop, no matter how it compares to the F-16. Reason being, it is the first fighter project Pakistan have taken part in. This shall be the means of experience in a joint venture and also one could say Indigenous programmes.

    This project is basically elevating Pakistans capability of being able to produce such arms, and I believe China is helping them to do so. Reason being that they would like Pakistan to be able to act as their main import/export partnerin arms, in the near future.
     
  17. Mukesh Patel

    Mukesh Patel New Member

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    Fc-1 is a history, its not gonna happen! Just like LCA!
     
  18. kilo_4que

    kilo_4que New Member

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    Funny, first time an indian has ever admitted that the LCA is a flop.

    However, the FC-1 I think is not a flop, and think it shall serve the Pakistani air force well.
     
  19. Bharat_R

    Bharat_R New Member

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    J-10 superior to the LCA, man you don't know [nothing] about fighters. [NOTE FROM ADMIN: Please watch your lingo, don't get emotional! So what are you gonna say? J-10 is faster, so its Mach 2 and the F-22 is Mach 1.5, it means its better then it. HAHA, the Radar cross section of the LCA is far less, the FBW system of the LCA is superior because it's similiar to the F-16XL. Yes we got American support on this project, but they stopped it after the Nuclear bomb testing. BTW people the Mig-33 is inferior to the Mig-29, please don't embarras yourself, the Russians dumped the project and China wasn't interested in this project. BTW India's LCA is in the same class of the Eurofighter, or 75% capability of the F-22.

    Don't believe me check Western sources such as FAS, and Global security.

    Check these out..
    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/lca.htm

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/lca.htm

    You think this is bull, no it isn't cause two Western sources (also note that that FAS is an independent org, while Global Security is supported by American gov. That's why they are negative about India, cause US doesn't like India. In the other hand they love Pakistan, but the people of Pakistan hates the US... It makes no sense, but Musharraf like US, since he's a dictator the people's say really doesn't matter. Back to my point, these two sites use Bharat-Rakshak as a REFERENCE. Therefore Bharat-Rakshak is CREDIBLE unlike Pakistani Defence or Sino-Defence (a site that is very neutral in my opinion).

    This just proves that the LCA CANNOT be compared with the FC-1, or J-10 (which is just the Israel Lavi). Also note that Mig-23 will be scrapped.
     
  20. Destroyer

    Destroyer New Member

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    Man you are a really biast person, you can give other people/ sources some credit too just because ur Indian doesn't mean that you can't say positive things about Pakistan or other militaries.