Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force Thread

Ananda

Well-Known Member
The Kaga will follow suit after the Izumo is completed. What will be interesting is if the Japanese redesignate the ships as CVs.
Couple years ago, I visited Japanese forum, and there there are some drawings of follow on of Izumo class of large destroyer. I don't know if the drawings come from official sites or another fan drawings. Still if China did manage to launch 4 catobar carriers as they plan, I believe Japan will go to a follow on design.

Still don't think Japan will call it CV, they will call it perhaps aviation destroyer ?
Hope they will call it Shokaku and Zuikaku, after all that the best IJN carriers.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Couple years ago, I visited Japanese forum, and there there are some drawings of follow on of Izumo class of large destroyer. I don't know if the drawings come from official sites or another fan drawings. Still if China did manage to launch 4 catobar carriers as they plan, I believe Japan will go to a follow on design.

Still don't think Japan will call it CV, they will call it perhaps aviation destroyer ?
Hope they will call it Shokaku and Zuikaku, after all that the best IJN carriers.
I still think Japan is better off building a balanced JMSDF fleet for its 4 escort Flotillas, with 2 carriers (currently called Izumo-class multi-purpose destroyers) that operate the F-35B. The pressing issue for Japanese naval air support is developing an organic AEW (may be using the V-22 as a platform) for the JMSDF escort Flotilla.

IMHO, PLA(N)'s CATOBAR carrier plans many result in more technical challenges that will delay the introduction of these new and untested Chinese desire for more naval air capability. It is uncertain that China can manage the trade-offs well in their fleet design.
 
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Volkodav

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
There is much talk of the vulnerability of western navies to DF21 type threats, although my understanding is SM-3, SM-6 and ESSM are all evolving, and expanding their envelopes to defend against the threat. What also comes to mind is how would the PLAN fare against modern SSNs, SSGs, sea skimming missiles, surface attack SM-6, and the elephant in the room, F-35B and C?

We already know what western stand off weapons can do to integrated air defence systems. Does China actually have the capacity to defence their fleet and SCS island bases against a swarm of sea, sub and air launched cruise missiles, as well as integrated strike packages and now large numbers of LO strike aircraft, with some of the best sensors and stand off precision weapons ever seen?
 

ngatimozart

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
There is much talk of the vulnerability of western navies to DF21 type threats, although my understanding is SM-3, SM-6 and ESSM are all evolving, and expanding their envelopes to defend against the threat. What also comes to mind is how would the PLAN fare against modern SSNs, SSGs, sea skimming missiles, surface attack SM-6, and the elephant in the room, F-35B and C?

We already know what western stand off weapons can do to integrated air defence systems. Does China actually have the capacity to defence their fleet and SCS island bases against a swarm of sea, sub and air launched cruise missiles, as well as integrated strike packages and now large numbers of LO strike aircraft, with some of the best sensors and stand off precision weapons ever seen?
We know that in theory Volk, but they have never been tested in peer on peer combat and neither have the Chinese weapons and systems. It's one thing to lob weapons at insurgents who don't have an IADS etc., and another to operate against a peer highly trained quality enemy with all the modern weapons, sensors and systems. So in reality it is only conjecture that the so-called best weapons and sensors are western. When was the last time a western power attacked a proper highly trained high quality enemy with a modern IADS? The Vietnam War? Iraq in GW1? A lot has changed since then, and we just don't know where the west stands in relation to both China and Russia regarding how the weapons, sensors, systems, strategies and tactics will actually function in a peer conflict until, God forbid one happens. Just look at WW2 to see what people believed would work and didn't.
 

Boagrius

Active Member
We know that in theory Volk, but they have never been tested in peer on peer combat and neither have the Chinese weapons and systems. It's one thing to lob weapons at insurgents who don't have an IADS etc., and another to operate against a peer highly trained quality enemy with all the modern weapons, sensors and systems. So in reality it is only conjecture that the so-called best weapons and sensors are western. When was the last time a western power attacked a proper highly trained high quality enemy with a modern IADS? The Vietnam War? Iraq in GW1? A lot has changed since then, and we just don't know where the west stands in relation to both China and Russia regarding how the weapons, sensors, systems, strategies and tactics will actually function in a peer conflict until, God forbid one happens. Just look at WW2 to see what people believed would work and didn't.
In the other fora I have visited I've noticed that there are wildly different narratives on how eastern and western systems/tactics etc match up.

The view from many Russian sources, for example, seems to be that the American fixation with VLO aircraft is mostly marketing fluff driven by a corrupt arms industry when only modest levels of signature reduction are even possible in the first place. On the other hand, many western sources clearly regard VLO as a decisive advantage on multiple levels.

As a layman it is good to be able to frequent a site like this where resident defence pros can help sort the wheat from the chaff.
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Japan launches third Hibiki-class ocean surveillance ship

Gabriel Dominguez, London - Jane's Defence Weekly 03 February 2020

Mitsui Engineering & Shipbuilding (E&S) has launched the third Hibiki-class ocean surveillance ship on order for the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF). Named Aki (with pennant number AOS 5203), the small waterplane area twin hull (SWATH) vessel entered the water on 15 January in a ceremony held at the company's facilities in the Japanese city of Tamano, Okayama Prefecture.

In May 2018 the Ministry of Defense (MoD) in Tokyo told Jane's that the 67 m-long ship was being built for JPY18.3 billion (USD164 million) under a contract awarded to Mitsui E&S that same year.

Complete article at: Japan launches third Hibiki-class ocean surveillance ship | Jane's 360


There is not much information findable on the internet a out this class of ships, i can only find this:
AOS Hibiki Class
11 kts is really slowly for a catamaran, but its a nice looking ship....
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Its not technically a catamaran but a SWATH Small-waterplane-area twin hull - Wikipedia

Built for stability and ability to resist wave motion, not for speed. Although you can certainly make one that goes fast, the US built one that could hit 30kts.
But here its about stability. So the sonar on this ship, isn't bouncing around in all directions you can travel nice and slow and build up very, very detailed images of the ocean floor or anything else down there. While it will be operating a towed array it helps to have the towing hull nice and stable.
 

Ananda

Well-Known Member
Shunkō large patrol vessel handed over to Japan Coast Guard - Naval News

Not really JMSDF news, but this is Japan Coast Guard news. The point I make in here is more to the trend of Coast Guards in the regions increasing the size of their Patrol Ships to answers the trend of Larger Coast Guards vessels being put in the sea by Chinese Coast Guards.

Even smaller and new Coast Guards like Vietnam and Indonesia already has 110m+ patrol vessels in their inventory. This represents the increasing trend in the region to use their 'quasy navy' in the front line of any maritime conflicts in the region.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Well China escalated the game with the 12,000t+ cutter 3901.

There is a bit of a line which is driving these large coast guard ships. If an incident involved coast guard ships, then coast guard needs to be able to handle the situation. Drawing more capable vessels from the Navy, is seen as a loss of face and as an escalation. Bigger ships can out endure smaller ships, so the waiting game plays out as smaller ships can't sustain extended patrol and leave the area. Also physical size is an advantage of its own.

Things could be worse. I would rather coast guard ships hosing each other down with water cannons, rather than navy ships exchanging missiles. Again a great example of conflicts other than war, where there is a specific restraint, but still an exchange.
 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Post 1 of 2: Build Plan for Japanese Submarines

1. Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Japan’s top submarine builder has already unveiled the country’s next-generation submarine design, designated 29SS. The sub due in the late-2020s.

2. The designation “29SS” is derived from the 29th year of the reign of Emperor Akihito, otherwise known to everyone else as 2017, and SS is shorthand for non-nuclear attack submarine.

3. A staff report for the US–China Economic and Security Review Commission puts the trend towards a more formidable Chinese submarine fleet by 2020 into a table:

China’s Submarine Fleet, 1990–2020


Type1990199520002005201020152020
Diesel Attack884360515457-6259-64
Nuclear Attack (SSN)455666-86-9
Nuclear Ballistic(SSBN)111233-54-5
Total934966596366-7569-78
4. The report also notes the ongoing modernisation of the fleet, defining ‘modern’ submarines as those able to launch ballistic missiles or anti-ship cruise missiles (ASCMs).

China’s Submarine Fleet, 1990–2020, approximate percent ‘modern’


Type1990199520002005201020152020
Diesel Attack0%0%7%40%50%70%75%
Nuclear Attack0%0%0%33%33%70%100%
5. That assessment is underlined by recent Congressional testimony from the US Navy’s Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI). The ONI also expects that by 2020 the ‘vast majority’ of China’s submarine force will be armed with ‘advanced, long-range ASCMs’.
6. The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force on 5 Mar 2020 welcomed into service its first submarine using lithium-ion batteries with the commissioning of JS OURYU as the 11th Soryu-class boat. The first 10 Soryu class boats used traditional heavy duty acid batteries.

7. The 12th Soryu-class and final boat, is to be named Tōryū. This is the 6th built by Kawasaki Heavy Industries (the other 6 having been built by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries). This boat was launched 6 Nov 2019 will serve as test-bed for the next generation 29SS submarines, which are also powered by lithium-ion batteries with a dramatically smaller sail. Li-Ion batteries have a superior energy-to-weight ratio and a slow loss of charge when not in use. Lithium is one of the lightest metals and has great electrochemical potential. One of the key advantages of Li-Ion batteries is their ability to be moulded into different shapes and sizes to fill any space available in the devices they power efficiently. It has a low self-discharge rate of approximately five to ten percent, which is significantly lower than other battery types in the market. No memory and scheduled cycling is needed to prolong the battery’s life.
 
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OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Post 2 of 2: Japanese Lawmakers Angry
A Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) destroyer Shimakaze (DDG-172) and a Chinese fishing boat collided in the high seas of the East China Sea in the evening hours of 30 Mar 2020. See: Japanese destroyer, Chinese fishing boat collide in East China Sea
8. Further to tensions in Mar 2020 and the scrambles by its air defence force, it was also reported by Japanese press that the ruling Liberal Democratic Party lawmakers submitted a strongly worded resolution 4 Jun 2020 calling on the government to vigorously protest China's repeated “stalking” of Japanese fishing boats in waters near the disputed Senkaku Islands.

9. The resolution from the LDP’s Policy Research Council submitted to Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga cited repeated intrusions into Japanese territorial waters between 8 May and 10 May by Chinese government vessels.

10. On the surface Sino-Japanese ties and tension can be managed. But in crucial areas of contention, there is little to no real progress. If anything almost ten years after the Senkaku escalation things are much worse. Last month, Tokyo filed a protest with China after a Japanese fishing boat in the waters around the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands was harassed by a Chinese coast guard vessel. Chief Cabinet Secretary Yoshihide Suga urged “positive action” from China to prevent the incident from affecting bilateral cooperation.

11. In 2012, Japan nationalised the Senkaku islands, sparking widespread protests across China. Since then, China has affected a strategy of active non-acquiescence to Japan’s occupation of the islands. According to Japanese coast guard data, Chinese forays into the territorial waters and contiguous zones of the islands have been regularised since 2012. To implement such a strategy, Beijing chalked up a string of firsts. In 2012, China sent a maritime surveillance aircraft to penetrate the airspace over the islands – the first time since 1958. In June 2016, China sent a Jiangkai I-class frigate into the contiguous zone of the islands. In January 2018, a submerged Shang-class submarine and a Jiangkai II-class frigate entered the contiguous zone of the islands.

12. In response, Japan has not been idle. It has beefed up capacity to respond to threats in its south-western island chain, and it has been sharpening the operational readiness of an Amphibious Rapid Deployment Brigade.
 
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Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Of course china will start to complain, connecting recent developments to the Second World War and act like they are the only ones who have the right to operate aircraft carriers in the West-Pacific.


30 JUNE 2020

Japan begins refitting first of two Izumo-class carriers to support F-35B operations

by Kosuke Takahashi

Tokyo has begun the process of converting the first of two Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Izumo-class helicopter carriers into aircraft carriers capable of supporting the operations of the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

As confirmed by Janes on 30 June, the Japan Marine United (JMU) Corporation recently started conducting refit work on JSIzumo at the company’s Isogo shipyard in Yokohama City.

fg_3213842-jdw-6762.jpg
JMSDF helicopter carrier JS Izumo is seen here on 30 June undergoing a refit at the JMU Corporation’s Isogo shipyard in Yokohama City. The JMSDF has begun the process of converting Izumo into an aircraft carrier capable of supporting F-35B operations. (Kosuke Takahashi)

More info at Japan begins refitting first of two Izumo-class carriers to support F-35B operations
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Of course china will start to complain, connecting recent developments to the Second World War and act like they are the only ones who have the right to operate aircraft carriers in the West-Pacific.


30 JUNE 2020

Japan begins refitting first of two Izumo-class carriers to support F-35B operations

by Kosuke Takahashi

Tokyo has begun the process of converting the first of two Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) Izumo-class helicopter carriers into aircraft carriers capable of supporting the operations of the short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

As confirmed by Janes on 30 June, the Japan Marine United (JMU) Corporation recently started conducting refit work on JSIzumo at the company’s Isogo shipyard in Yokohama City.

View attachment 47466
JMSDF helicopter carrier JS Izumo is seen here on 30 June undergoing a refit at the JMU Corporation’s Isogo shipyard in Yokohama City. The JMSDF has begun the process of converting Izumo into an aircraft carrier capable of supporting F-35B operations. (Kosuke Takahashi)

More info at Japan begins refitting first of two Izumo-class carriers to support F-35B operations
From that article it dosnt appear she will be ready for F35B ops post 2025, might have been quicker to build an improved variant before then cost considerations aside
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
This is an interesting proposal for Japan to increase its sub presence as the USN sub fleet reaches its low plateau prior to increasing again. By extending the service life from 22 to 30 years, the fleet grows to 30 boats by the time the USN sub fleet reaches its low point while still sticking to one new boat per year. Assuming the Japanese don’t drastically work their subs harder than other navies, this seems to be a reasonable proposal to consider.

 

OPSSG

Super Moderator
Staff member
Some regional updates & JMSDF developments

1. Navies working together gives us the best chance for a peaceful outcome, to regional tensions — there is a strong incentive for the small navies to work with larger navies, to hone their skills.

2. Thanks to the Japanese PAO, we have these lovely images to share of four navies training and working together (namely, Australia, Brunei, Japan and Singapore), in this multi-national group sail, even before the start of RIMPAC 2020.

3. Japan's Acquisition Technology and Logistics Agency (ATLA) announced on 9 Aug 2017 the launch of a new surface vessel programme called 30DX for the JMSDF with Mitsubishi Heavy Industries (MHI) selected as prime contractor. The first ship of the class is nearing completion. Prime Minister Abe has repeatedly earmarked increased funding for the nation's defence budget, expanding the capabilities of the Japan Self-Defense Forces (JSDF) with plans to repeal the post-Second World War constitutional limitations and reinstate a power projection focused force structure and doctrine to be supported by Japan's industrial capability to modernise and equip itself in the face of growing regional instability and tensions.

4. Following approval in December 2018 for the conversion of the Izumo Class into aircraft carriers, imagery has emerged of the JNS Izumo as it undergoes the major structural modification and conversation to enable the vessels to host the F-35 and V-22 Osprey's planned to support the burgeoning anti-submarine, amphibious and expeditionary capabilities Japan currently has in development. The US$28 million modifications underway at Yokohama will clear and reinforce Izumo’s deck in order to transform the vessel from a helicopter carrier into a light aircraft carrier capable of supporting Japan’s 42 F-35B STOVL fighter jets.

5. It is envisaged that the modernised and converted Izumo Class will provide tactical and strategic mobility for the JSDF and enable them to support the rapid response deployment of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force's (JGSDF) 'Amphibious Rapid Deployment' brigade.

6. This JSDF amphibious unit is similar to US Marine Expeditionary Units designed to defend Japanese interests in the South China Sea, namely the Senkaku Islands, which have served as a flash point between China and Japan.

7. Beyond Increased naval activities, the JSDF has its own A2AD strategy for the defence of its islands.

8. It is ironic that 75 years since WWII ended in the Pacific with Japan's surrender, the country has returned back to operating carriers. The outcomes of the war in the Pacific can still be seen and felt today. Due to Japan's history of offensive operations during WWII, for decades, the JMSDF was prevented from operating aircraft carriers (as these were considered to be offensive weapons systems – capable of supporting power projection doctrines and 'hard power' policies).

9. In 2020, the region (except for China), welcomes Japan’s return to carrier aviation due to growing uncertainty of the regional security environment. JMSDF’s exercises with ASEAN navies is seen to promote a balance of power that favours ASEAN interests by strengthening their partnerships and military presence vs the PLA(N)’s attempts to unilaterally challenge the status quo through militarisation, provocation, gray-zone coercion, and salami slicing.
 
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Ananda

Well-Known Member
ironic that 75 years since WWII ended in the Pacific with Japan's surrender, the country has returned back to operating carriers. The outcomes of the war in the Pacific can still be seen and felt today.
It's been talk in Japanese media and forums on the next Carrier batch after Izumo and Kaga. There's some graphics rendering of carrier size of QE2 derived from Izumo's, with either Catobar or still with VTOL. Off course it's mostly Japanese Media and Forumers rendering. However one thing that in my opinion something that has probable, is the scenario that it can happen if China move toward 4 or more carriers force. The talk on using namesake of Shokaku and Zuikaku is also come forward as those two are the best IJN carriers in WW2.

China's move and behavior toward their neighbors whether in SCS or in Japan Sea already open the neighborhood counters on carriers development. Japan with both Izumo's, practically behaving like UK's Invincible class+, and ROK already shown their plan on similar move.

Singapore already shown ST LPH concept, and even Indonesia's PAL already shown it's LPH concept. Most likely Singapore LPH's will come much sooner I believe (and I think you will know that more). Still the point I'm making that China's behavior only put much more counter move by the neighbors. Something that going to be a counterproductive trend toward their own belt and road strategy.
Something that I'm keep wondering, that China seems more interested building network in Africa or South Asia, but put counterproductive move toward it's immediate neighbors in East and Southeast Asia. The way they do it, they're playing right into Trump's playbook, no matter what Chinese analysts and ten cents army talk in Media and on-line forums.

Back to Japan MSDF, unlike French and UK, Japan already have enough escorts to make 4 CAG possible. Thus I do believe they are now waiting on how China's will progress with carrier development. Instead of thinking on those USN 10-11 CAG (plus 6-8 LPH), China also creating 2-4 Japan's CAG and 1-2 ROK's CAG.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The Japanese Ministry of Defence used to have* on its website the official interpretation of what the constitution allowed & did not. It did not say that aircraft carriers were not allowed because they were offensive, but that offensive aircraft carriers were not allowed. A very significant distinction!

As I've often pointed out to people who said that Japan's constitution forbids it from having aircraft carriers, or x or y other weapon, the constitution says nothing at all about any specific weapon. What matters is the interpretation of the difference between "waging war" & "self defence", & the official interpretation was very carefully worded in both Japanese & English not to exclude aircraft carriers per se, but only offensive ones - whatever they are.

*May still have, but I've not checked recently.
 
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